Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:33 am Post subject: Cops
Their culture simply has to change. They work for us. We shouldn't fear them. They shouldn't terrorize or murder us. The Thin Blue line has to go. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:25 am Post subject:
Agreed. They culture has always existed, but in the last decade plus, the balance has shifted heavily.
I truly believe that iy all ties into the "siege" mentality that has taken hold since 9/11. With the increased authority of Homeland Security, Patriot Act related crap and increased scrutiny taken by the NSA, we have de-evolved into a society that sits back while it's Law Enforcement has shifted into a protective service to an occupying force.
It definitely has to change. From the sense of entitlement held by Law Enforcement to their over-militarized attitude, it all needs to be dialed back. However I fear it will ghet worse before it gets better.
The lyrics to the COPS themesong have gotten more disturbing as the means to record live events became increasingly common. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
The change has to come from both sides. There is no doubt a culture shift within police forces is necessary. But communities also need to shift their way of thinking and attitudes as well.
I do think your theory of 9/11 is interesting, but it also coincides with another event. The exponential rise in smartphone adoption. I think the mistrust in police departments was well documented even prior to 9/11, and the growing use of camera-equipped phones has simply allowed us to capture indiscretions that likely had already been occurring.
In my opinion, the tensions began in the late 80s / early 90s. No more evident in the release of NWA's "F the Police" which marked the first time you really had people talking about killing cops en masse. You also had Ice-T's "Cop Killer", political bands like Rage Against the Machine, and of course the Rodney King incident during that time. (By the way, I'm not saying these events caused anything, I'm saying they are symptomatic of the mindset of the times).
Bottom line, there is no justifying the actions that police officers have taken in a number of the incidents we now know about. But we aren't off the hook either. There is culpability on our part too. We're not taking steps to put out the flame, in fact we're fueling it. We play that game many of us might have played as children, where, you draw a line between your sibling and you have their side and they have theirs. And instead of just keeping to your side, and they theirs, we creep up to the furthest most point of the line without actually crossing it knowing full well it'll irritate them.
Collectively, we have a complete disregard these days for the spirit of law, and instead go about our days living to the letter of the law. We don't live by doing what is right, we live by doing what is not technically wrong. So a change is no doubt needed, but we need to look in the mirror too.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35854 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:43 am Post subject:
I don't think we can have a serious conversation about police brutality until we somehow end this societal sycophancy towards them. The average cop is not a hero; the average cop is some idiot who C-plused his way through high school and who regularly patronizes Applebee's. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
What needs to change is the punishment. Hold these guys to the same standards and laws that citizens have to abide by. They assault someone? Give them the same treatment and sentence that a regular citizen would get. Just because they have a badge shouldn't give them the right to do what they do.
Stop protecting these fools. That's why they think they can get away with it. If a citizen can't get away with murdering someone with all kinds of damning evidence that points to them committing the murder, a cop should not either. All the evidence they have on these cops and they are either getting off clean or getting off with a slap on the wrist, it's ridiculous.
These guys just beat the (bleep) out of some horse thief with a damn helicopter recording their every action from above. What disturbs me besides the actual act, is that they decided to do it anyway despite being recorded. Sick (bleep). They have been put on paid leave. They should be in prison with the other violent criminals.
Neither you nor I can just go around beating the crap out of someone, and we certainly wouldn't be allowed to just roam the streets after the entire act was caught on film for the world to see. No, we'd be in jail and bail would be denied. Treat these people like the people they truly are, criminals. Throw em in prison. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Last edited by USCandLakers on Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:00 am; edited 1 time in total
Absolutely the culture needs to change. There are serious issues with our police force.
But people also need to respect our police and do what they tell them to do.
Change needs to happen on both sides.
I agree to an extent. However, these policemen need to recognize we as citizens have rights. Their job is to serve and protect. Not manipulate the law to fit their agenda. Criminals are going to run like they always have. Beating the crap out of them after they're caught only shifts the public perception on the matter at hand. All of a sudden these criminals have a sympathy backing, and the cops are the bad guys.
With all the camera phones and video surveillance everywhere, it makes me wonder how stupid our law enforcement officers really are.
I like the idea of police officers, but I have not trusted one or felt safe around them my whole life.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67716 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:29 am Post subject:
You're required to have a college degree to be an administrative assistant in the custodian department in LA County. You are required to have a degree to be a probation officer in LA County Department of Corrections.
It's been chronicled officers with degrees are less likely to shoot first, ask questions later.
I propose, to become a police officer a degree be a requirement. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:12 pm Post subject:
kaoss128 wrote:
Absolutely the culture needs to change. There are serious issues with our police force.
But people also need to respect our police and do what they tell them to do.
Change needs to happen on both sides.
Not at all. And your comment is demonstrative of the problem that exists now.
The police are not and should not be a group we all have to answer to.
They are public guardians whose purpose is to protect and to serve the citizens. They are not some autonomous entity to whom we, as citizens, must all bow to. The are paid as public officials to try and make our lives safer and better - not be an oppressive and dictatorial entity.
I'm all for respecting authority - but that comes with the provision that authority be correctly and reasonably implemented. So sorry, but no, we should not simply just do what the police tell us to do.
We should expect and demand them to do what they are obligated to do, not what they want to do.
This idea that you are a proponent of - that we should all just do what the cops tells us - is EXACTLY the problem we need to eradicate.
We do not live in a Police State. That idea is antithetical to what the core values of this nation reside on.
The change has to come from both sides. There is no doubt a culture shift within police forces is necessary. But communities also need to shift their way of thinking and attitudes as well.
I do think your theory of 9/11 is interesting, but it also coincides with another event. The exponential rise in smartphone adoption. I think the mistrust in police departments was well documented even prior to 9/11, and the growing use of camera-equipped phones has simply allowed us to capture indiscretions that likely had already been occurring.
In my opinion, the tensions began in the late 80s / early 90s. No more evident in the release of NWA's "F the Police" which marked the first time you really had people talking about killing cops en masse. You also had Ice-T's "Cop Killer", political bands like Rage Against the Machine, and of course the Rodney King incident during that time. (By the way, I'm not saying these events caused anything, I'm saying they are symptomatic of the mindset of the times).
Bottom line, there is no justifying the actions that police officers have taken in a number of the incidents we now know about. But we aren't off the hook either. There is culpability on our part too. We're not taking steps to put out the flame, in fact we're fueling it. We play that game many of us might have played as children, where, you draw a line between your sibling and you have their side and they have theirs. And instead of just keeping to your side, and they theirs, we creep up to the furthest most point of the line without actually crossing it knowing full well it'll irritate them.
Collectively, we have a complete disregard these days for the spirit of law, and instead go about our days living to the letter of the law. We don't live by doing what is right, we live by doing what is not technically wrong. So a change is no doubt needed, but we need to look in the mirror too.
Since I don't have the time or inclination to debunk this in it's entirety, I'll just go on record as saying this is the most wrong post in LGN history. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
It seems folks have truly lost sight of just what a free society is. We are NOT beholden to the police, nor laws. They are the framework which we use to effectively administer civil order, but neither police, nor laws, are the masters of a free man. They are both there so citizens can make effective individual choices. Choose to steal a bicycle? The prescribed penalties for being caught stealing that bicycle are clearly spelled out. When a person decides to steal a bicycle, they know exactly what the prescribed penalty is. As a free person, they can still choose to steal that bicycle and open themselves up to suffering that prescribed penalty. That's part of being free. It's no different than when you choose to speed down the highway. You are aware of the rules, and you can choose to risk the penalty of breaking the rules.
We are NOT subjects of the state. We are not owned by the state. We are not beholden to the state. We are free persons. No matter how much one may wish it were, life in a free society is not all rainbows. Part of that freedom means there are rigors we all must endure. Part and parcel to that is when some free persons choose not to respect the rights of other free persons or the rules of civil society. The police are there to enforce those rules of civil society. Their authority is limited to the PRESCRIBED potential outcomes of breaking those rules. That's why a cop can NOT drag you out of your car and physically subdue you for committing the infraction of speeding, but he CAN toss you to the ground and subdue you for committing the crime of aggravated battery. The prescribed outcomes for BOTH of those offenses determines just what are the limits placed upon a Police Officer. THIS is what's gotten lost in today's policing. There is a lack of understanding amongst the current Police culture of the scalability that SUPPOSED to limit the magnitude of their response to each individual potential rules violation and they too often resort to using sledge hammers to kill ants.
But it's sad to hear many so casually act is if they are indeed subjects of an imperial state. It's almost as if many despise their own freedom. _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail.
Areas with high minority population’s policed by majority white Police departments is never a good ideal. That’s about as far as I’ll go on changes needed far as Police in America is concerned. I would prob shock you by saying we need more stopping power in the form of the 10mm issued if you want my honest OP. Yes, change has happened and its in the form of the respect no authority culture we live in welcome to the 21st century kids. Remember those 80's robocop movies ?? Well great, now you are actually living in it so why are you complaining? It’s want you wanted or wished for when America leaned more to the right.
Great takes from KBCB, DMR, CandyCanes, USCandLakers, Legacy, jodeke, and Aussiesuede … nothing more to add, really.
Any with experience working a beat?
Any ever involed in a signal 63?
The fact of whether or not any have first-person experience has no bearing on my view. By way of example, a medical degree isn't required to criticize someone attempting a median sternotomy with a rusty butter knife. This forum is overflowing with individuals expressing opinions and views about professional basketball (and other subject matter), nearly all of whom have never walked in the shoes of a professional basketball player. Are you actually suggesting that those who work in public safety should be immune from criticism unless those expressing the criticisms have also worked in that field?
I hope not ...
I think we have all (perhaps passively) allowed this glaring problem in our society to develop to this point ... I'm not sure if we're at the point of critical mass just yet ... but I wish I knew of an effective way to solve this one. It's a mess ...
Absolutely the culture needs to change. There are serious issues with our police force.
But people also need to respect our police and do what they tell them to do.
Change needs to happen on both sides.
Not at all. And your comment is demonstrative of the problem that exists now.
The police are not and should not be a group we all have to answer to.
They are public guardians whose purpose is to protect and to serve the citizens. They are not some autonomous entity to whom we, as citizens, must all bow to. The are paid as public officials to try and make our lives safer and better - not be an oppressive and dictatorial entity.
I'm all for respecting authority - but that comes with the provision that authority be correctly and reasonably implemented. So sorry, but no, we should not simply just do what the police tell us to do.
We should expect and demand them to do what they are obligated to do, not what they want to do.
This idea that you are a proponent of - that we should all just do what the cops tells us - is EXACTLY the problem we need to eradicate.
We do not live in a Police State. That idea is antithetical to what the core values of this nation reside on.
People shouldn't be disrespecting cops, running away from cops, mouthing off to cops, assaulting cops. So yes change does need to happen on both sides. You do what a cop tells you to do and 99.9% of the time there will not be a problem. They have one of the hardest jobs in the world. We should not be making it harder.
Absolutely the culture needs to change. There are serious issues with our police force.
But people also need to respect our police and do what they tell them to do.
Change needs to happen on both sides.
Not at all. And your comment is demonstrative of the problem that exists now.
The police are not and should not be a group we all have to answer to.
They are public guardians whose purpose is to protect and to serve the citizens. They are not some autonomous entity to whom we, as citizens, must all bow to. The are paid as public officials to try and make our lives safer and better - not be an oppressive and dictatorial entity.
I'm all for respecting authority - but that comes with the provision that authority be correctly and reasonably implemented. So sorry, but no, we should not simply just do what the police tell us to do.
We should expect and demand them to do what they are obligated to do, not what they want to do.
This idea that you are a proponent of - that we should all just do what the cops tells us - is EXACTLY the problem we need to eradicate.
We do not live in a Police State. That idea is antithetical to what the core values of this nation reside on.
People shouldn't be disrespecting cops, running away from cops, mouthing off to cops, assaulting cops. So yes change does need to happen on both sides. You do what a cop tells you to do and 99.9% of the time there will not be a problem. They have one of the hardest jobs in the world. We should not be making it harder.
The civil rights movement would never have happened. _________________ Lakers. Built different.
The change has to come from both sides. There is no doubt a culture shift within police forces is necessary. But communities also need to shift their way of thinking and attitudes as well.
I do think your theory of 9/11 is interesting, but it also coincides with another event. The exponential rise in smartphone adoption. I think the mistrust in police departments was well documented even prior to 9/11, and the growing use of camera-equipped phones has simply allowed us to capture indiscretions that likely had already been occurring.
In my opinion, the tensions began in the late 80s / early 90s. No more evident in the release of NWA's "F the Police" which marked the first time you really had people talking about killing cops en masse. You also had Ice-T's "Cop Killer", political bands like Rage Against the Machine, and of course the Rodney King incident during that time. (By the way, I'm not saying these events caused anything, I'm saying they are symptomatic of the mindset of the times).
Bottom line, there is no justifying the actions that police officers have taken in a number of the incidents we now know about. But we aren't off the hook either. There is culpability on our part too. We're not taking steps to put out the flame, in fact we're fueling it. We play that game many of us might have played as children, where, you draw a line between your sibling and you have their side and they have theirs. And instead of just keeping to your side, and they theirs, we creep up to the furthest most point of the line without actually crossing it knowing full well it'll irritate them.
Collectively, we have a complete disregard these days for the spirit of law, and instead go about our days living to the letter of the law. We don't live by doing what is right, we live by doing what is not technically wrong. So a change is no doubt needed, but we need to look in the mirror too.
Since I don't have the time or inclination to debunk this in it's entirety, I'll just go on record as saying this is the most wrong post in LGN history.
No offense, but your record isn't exactly spotless.
If you don't want to believe police mistrust existed well before 9/11, that's your prerogative of course. It's just my opinion that police brutality in the 1990s and prior wasn't a surprise to anyone. And when nearly everyone has a video camera and able to capture events within seconds notice, these incidences appear to be a lot more prevalent than in years past.
As a collective group, we're not even close to being able to have an open and frank discussion about the issue (like so many others) because it's all about finger pointing, failing to see the other side, and failing to accept any amount of responsibility. And that's on both sides.
The discussion needs to be more along the lines of "how do we solve this problem?" and not "whose fault is this?" Too bad because the latter accomplishes nothing.
All that said, in light of the various incidences that have occurred over the years, I would definitely recommend limiting engaging in behaviors that may necessitate police involvement.
Absolutely the culture needs to change. There are serious issues with our police force.
But people also need to respect our police and do what they tell them to do.
Change needs to happen on both sides.
Not at all. And your comment is demonstrative of the problem that exists now.
The police are not and should not be a group we all have to answer to.
They are public guardians whose purpose is to protect and to serve the citizens. They are not some autonomous entity to whom we, as citizens, must all bow to. The are paid as public officials to try and make our lives safer and better - not be an oppressive and dictatorial entity.
I'm all for respecting authority - but that comes with the provision that authority be correctly and reasonably implemented. So sorry, but no, we should not simply just do what the police tell us to do.
We should expect and demand them to do what they are obligated to do, not what they want to do.
This idea that you are a proponent of - that we should all just do what the cops tells us - is EXACTLY the problem we need to eradicate.
We do not live in a Police State. That idea is antithetical to what the core values of this nation reside on.
People shouldn't be disrespecting cops, running away from cops, mouthing off to cops, assaulting cops. So yes change does need to happen on both sides. You do what a cop tells you to do and 99.9% of the time there will not be a problem. They have one of the hardest jobs in the world. We should not be making it harder.
I can't agree with this. If someone is running away from, or assaulting an officer of the law, that person is already a criminal. It's their job to arrest those people.
You might be right about there not being a problem if you just do what a cop tells you to do. Problem is, what they're telling you to do could be in violation of your civil rights. In which case, (bleep) them. My rights aren't going to be slimmed down because of a cops stress level. If that's going to be their go-to excuse, or that their job is too hard, then IMO they aren't good enough to wear a badge to begin with.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67716 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject:
Lakers2001 wrote:
the association wrote:
Great takes from KBCB, DMR, CandyCanes, USCandLakers, Legacy, jodeke, and Aussiesuede … nothing more to add, really.
Any with experience working a beat?
Any ever involed in a signal 63?
If that signal were sent in this situation, who really needed help? Officer shoots fleeing suspect in the back. Shots fired, officer needs help. Really?
^^^^^ In the photo I didn't see any faces that aren't Black. ????? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Absolutely the culture needs to change. There are serious issues with our police force.
But people also need to respect our police and do what they tell them to do.
Change needs to happen on both sides.
Not at all. And your comment is demonstrative of the problem that exists now.
The police are not and should not be a group we all have to answer to.
They are public guardians whose purpose is to protect and to serve the citizens. They are not some autonomous entity to whom we, as citizens, must all bow to. The are paid as public officials to try and make our lives safer and better - not be an oppressive and dictatorial entity.
I'm all for respecting authority - but that comes with the provision that authority be correctly and reasonably implemented. So sorry, but no, we should not simply just do what the police tell us to do.
We should expect and demand them to do what they are obligated to do, not what they want to do.
This idea that you are a proponent of - that we should all just do what the cops tells us - is EXACTLY the problem we need to eradicate.
We do not live in a Police State. That idea is antithetical to what the core values of this nation reside on.
People shouldn't be disrespecting cops, running away from cops, mouthing off to cops, assaulting cops. So yes change does need to happen on both sides. You do what a cop tells you to do and 99.9% of the time there will not be a problem. They have one of the hardest jobs in the world. We should not be making it harder.
People disrespect cops the ENTIRE WORLD over. This is not an American thing. What is an American thing is this rampant killing of citizens by Cops. Since the year 1900, British Police have killed a sum total of 52 people. American cops kill that many in just 2 weeks. In March alone, American cops shot 111 US citizens. That's appalling by any metric...
In 2011 American police justifiably shot dead at least 404 people. Over the same period Australian police killed six people, German police killed six and English and Welsh killed two.
In 2013 American police legally shot dead at least 460 people after a previous high of 458 in 1994.
American Police Killings _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail.
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