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Aussiesuede
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 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | NO! It's definitely rhetorical! The basic point is that the majority of every single race are non criminal, but non criminal Hispanic & Black males get treated as guilty instead of innocent even though the majority of them are innocent just like the majority of everyone else. People often bandy about statistics like 1/3rd of black males between the age such and such will end spend time in jail and then use this type of statistic as an excuse to treat the other 2/3rd (ie the majority) as if they too are criminals. One can only do that if they are already predisposed to a biased position. |
I guess there is some truth in what you're saying, but it seems simplistic. You're leaving out a lot of contextual factors. A car full of tattooed black and Hispanic kids dressed like gang members in an urban area known for drug sales is going to get treated differently from a car full of black and Hispanic kids with college sweatshirts in a suburban area. Does race have an impact on cops? Sure. But you are grossly oversimplifying when you suggest that it is the only factor. |
That's just it. OFTEN race IS the ONLY factor. I think you're discounting just how often that is. All one has to do is ask a black doctor, a black lawyer, a black congressman - all who are un tatted and non "Hood" looking if they've been profiled, harassed, or put under unearned srutiny by authorities and you'll get a resounding YES. Then ask the same of the average White/Asian doctor, lawyer, and Congressman, and you'll get a resounding NO. So pretending that race isn't the MAJOR factor even though MOST clean cut Blacks have suffered the same suspicions as "Hood Looking" Blacks, is just that - pretending, And goes straight to the point of my contention - Even though the majority of Blacks are non criminal - they still get judged by the minority criminal element amongst them (regardless of how clean cut they look) - whereas others don't get judged as a group by the minority amongst them. Heck, studies have clearly illustrated that even just having a "Black Sounding name" hurts your chances of even getting considered for job interviews for which you've superior qualifications in comparison to those with non blak sounding names.
This country is so desperate to be "post-racial" that many just conveniently ignore these truths. Do you really think the Authorities are giving black folks a better shake than a business person who would have a vested interest in hiring the most qualified candidates but still ignore some based on something as simple as a name? And this is PERVASSIVE, not just something which happens 'occasionally'.
| Quote: | "Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback."
A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones - can find it harder to get a job. Despite laws against discrimination, affirmative action, a degree of employer enlightenment, and the desire by some businesses to enhance profits by hiring those most qualified regardless of race, African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.
Now a "field experiment" by NBER Faculty Research Fellows Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan measures this discrimination in a novel way. In response to help-wanted ads in Chicago and Boston newspapers, they sent resumes with either African-American- or white-sounding names and then measured the number of callbacks each resume received for interviews. Thus, they experimentally manipulated perception of race via the name on the resume. Half of the applicants were assigned African-American names that are "remarkably common" in the black population, the other half white sounding names, such as Emily Walsh or Greg Baker. |
| Quote: | | College professors, across race/ethnicity and gender, are more likely to respond to queries from students they believe are white males. Despite universities frequently being described as bastions of progressivism and liberal indoctrination centers, a recent study found that faculty of colleges and universities are more likely to ignore requests for mentorship from minority and/or female students. Researchers sent more than 6,500 professors at 259 schools in 89 disciplines identical letters that differed only in the name and implied race/gender of the fictitious student sender. |
Bureau of Economic Research
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Eh, now you're switching subjects. You've gone from the 16-26 demographic to the entire population, and you've gone from routine police behavior to occasional incidents and employment discrimination. Few people would dispute that race plays a role in our society. You start from that broad principle and conclude that everything is about race. So other than being angry, what's your solution? |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Eh, now you're switching subjects. You've gone from the 16-26 demographic to the entire population, and you've gone from routine police behavior to occasional incidents. Few people would dispute that race plays a role in our society. You start from that broad principle and conclude that everything is about race. So other than being angry, what's your solution? |
The solution is simple. Make it so there is nothing to be angry about. It's that's simple. Stop doing the things that make folks angry and they'll stop being angry. How?
In Canada, policing is done by what's called the "Grandma rule". If Grandma's aren't calling in complaining, then it's likely not something which society at large has a great problem with. If we applied such a standard here, then the overall level of contact with law enforcement for ALL demographic groups would decrease significantly and MANY of these issues would take care of themselves since Law enforcement would not be engaged is such overreaching proactive engagements in the first place, with everyone.
Americans fool themselves into believing that this "proactive" approach is the primary reason for a decrease in crime as opposed to the majority of the rest of the world who see economics as the primary driver. There's but one solution. What solution might you offer?
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | NO! It's definitely rhetorical! The basic point is that the majority of every single race are non criminal, but non criminal Hispanic & Black males get treated as guilty instead of innocent even though the majority of them are innocent just like the majority of everyone else. People often bandy about statistics like 1/3rd of black males between the age such and such will end spend time in jail and then use this type of statistic as an excuse to treat the other 2/3rd (ie the majority) as if they too are criminals. One can only do that if they are already predisposed to a biased position. |
I guess there is some truth in what you're saying, but it seems simplistic. You're leaving out a lot of contextual factors. A car full of tattooed black and Hispanic kids dressed like gang members in an urban area known for drug sales is going to get treated differently from a car full of black and Hispanic kids with college sweatshirts in a suburban area. Does race have an impact on cops? Sure. But you are grossly oversimplifying when you suggest that it is the only factor. |
That's just it. OFTEN race IS the ONLY factor. I think you're discounting just how often that is. All one has to do is ask a black doctor, a black lawyer, a black congressman - all who are un tatted and non "Hood" looking if they've been profiled, harassed, or put under unearned srutiny by authorities and you'll get a resounding YES. Then ask the same of the average White/Asian doctor, lawyer, and Congressman, and you'll get a resounding NO. So pretending that race isn't the MAJOR factor even though MOST clean cut Blacks have suffered the same suspicions as "Hood Looking" Blacks, is just that - pretending, And goes straight to the point of my contention - Even though the majority of Blacks are non criminal - they still get judged by the minority criminal element amongst them (regardless of how clean cut they look) - whereas others don't get judged as a group by the minority amongst them. Heck, studies have clearly illustrated that even just having a "Black Sounding name" hurts your chances of even getting considered for job interviews for which you've superior qualifications in comparison to those with non blak sounding names.
This country is so desperate to be "post-racial" that many just conveniently ignore these truths. Do you really think the Authorities are giving black folks a better shake than a business person who would have a vested interest in hiring the most qualified candidates but still ignore some based on something as simple as a name? And this is PERVASSIVE, not just something which happens 'occasionally'.
| Quote: | "Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback."
A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones - can find it harder to get a job. Despite laws against discrimination, affirmative action, a degree of employer enlightenment, and the desire by some businesses to enhance profits by hiring those most qualified regardless of race, African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.
Now a "field experiment" by NBER Faculty Research Fellows Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan measures this discrimination in a novel way. In response to help-wanted ads in Chicago and Boston newspapers, they sent resumes with either African-American- or white-sounding names and then measured the number of callbacks each resume received for interviews. Thus, they experimentally manipulated perception of race via the name on the resume. Half of the applicants were assigned African-American names that are "remarkably common" in the black population, the other half white sounding names, such as Emily Walsh or Greg Baker. |
| Quote: | | College professors, across race/ethnicity and gender, are more likely to respond to queries from students they believe are white males. Despite universities frequently being described as bastions of progressivism and liberal indoctrination centers, a recent study found that faculty of colleges and universities are more likely to ignore requests for mentorship from minority and/or female students. Researchers sent more than 6,500 professors at 259 schools in 89 disciplines identical letters that differed only in the name and implied race/gender of the fictitious student sender. |
Bureau of Economic Research |
Hi!
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Eh, now you're switching subjects. You've gone from the 16-26 demographic to the entire population, and you've gone from routine police behavior to occasional incidents and employment discrimination. Few people would dispute that race plays a role in our society. You start from that broad principle and conclude that everything is about race. So other than being angry, what's your solution? |
Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever.
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“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | The solution is simple. Make it so there is nothing to be angry about. It's that's simple. Stop doing the things that make folks angry and they'll stop being angry. How? |
That pretty well illustrates the futility of your whole argument. "Let's just quit having racial attitudes and stop making each other unhappy." Wow, that's brilliant.
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | In Canada, policing is done by what's called the "Grandma rule". |
Oh, so we're back to police now.
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | If Grandma's aren't calling in complaining, then it's likely not something which society at large has a great problem with. |
Gotta throw the BS flag on this one. I prayed to St. Google for information about this "Grandma rule" in Canada. St. Google sent me a vision of blankness.
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | If we applied such a standard here, then the overall level of contact with law enforcement for ALL demographic groups would decrease significantly and MANY of these issues would take care of themselves since Law enforcement would not be engaged is such overreaching proactive engagements in the first place, with everyone. |
So if grandmas aren't complaining about drug trafficking and car thefts, we just let them go. Gotcha. After all, what we all know is that Americans want less police protection.
Anyway, you ought to check out some of the grandmas in the GOP.
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Americans fool themselves into believing that this "proactive" approach is the primary reason for a decrease in crime as opposed to the majority of the rest of the world who see economics as the primary driver. There's but one solution. What solution might you offer? |
I already told you. Decouple the issue from race and have a national dialogue on how we want police to operate and what the rules of engagement should be. This is virtually impossible at the moment, because there are too many people with a vested interest in making all of it about race. However, until race gets decoupled, nothing is going to change. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
That pretty well illustrates the futility of your whole argument. "Let's just quit having racial attitudes and stop making each other unhappy." Wow, that's brilliant. |
And this goes straight to just why progress is so difficult on this issue. You instantly decide that because you can't draw a workable analysis then there isn't one to be drawn. This is both sad, and in error.
REAL WORLD EXAMPLE: Most are aware of the issues between the Justice Dept findings and the Seattle Police Department. The SPD initially simply dismissed much of what was contained out of hand, in much the way you just have. LUCKILY, better heads prevailed and the SPD decided to actually start to LOOK at possibilities instead of just sitting back whining about
"That's too uncomfortable to take on so we'll instead just sit back and demand the game be played on just our terms or we'll refuse to participate until the game is allowed to be played on only the terms we find acceptable".
And that's exactly what you are suggesting here. You seem to be saying that the ONLY way to discuss VERY REAL problems is if the issue is first decoupled from the 1000# Gorilla in the room - Race. Why? Who knows? I can only guess it's because you don't believe the Race portion of the issue can be realistically tackled therefore we must pretend it's not front and center and then you'll be comfortable enough to talk about the OTHER issues? That's just a guess on my part, but I easily admit I don't know your personal reasons for this belief that you offer that the only way the "Police" issues can be solved is if it's somehow detached from that 1000# Gorrilla in the room.
So after much discussion with the public, a rather simple solution was proffered to the SPD re: the issues they have had with the minority ASIAN & BLACK communities in the Central District and South Seattle. A simple suggestion was made by an Asian gentleman because of his experience living in North Seattle AND South Seattle. He simply offered that perhaps the Police should apply the approach to these 2 areas that they apply to the remainder of the city. That's it. That simple. You see, those of us who live withing the city limits outside of those areas seldom have adverse contacts with law enforcement regardless of our race. We seldom get pulled over to minor traffic infractions (more like never) in the majority of this city, a luxury that had not been afforded to those in the CD & South Seattle prior. That change with policing? Now they've simply altered their contact footprint in those areas to match those of the rest of the city,and with GOOD early feedback from those parts of the community. A funny thing seems to occur when you STOP TREATING a certain segment of the population as more culpable than the rest of the population. It's early, but complaints are WAY down against the SPD since implementing the change. What hasn't happened? A rapid increase in crime - shooting down the theory that certain populations segments need to be held under thumb lest crime run amok. It simply is NOT proving to be the case. But we would have never been able to discern that if we'd REFUSED to look at realistic alternatives as the SPD first suggested,and as you also seem to be suggesting - as unworkable. It' falls under the old "You won't know if you don't at least try" routine.
So you can't just "Stop Having Racial Attitudes" as you so simple mindedly suggest. But you CAN stop having Racial ACTIONS, as our police are proving by simply treating that segment of the population EXACTLY like they treat the rest. It wasn't that difficult to just stop pulling everyone over willy nilly and stopping folks for no reason at all in those neighborhoods. We'll monitor over the coming years, but with our current fantastic economic climate that afford opportunities to people in those communities not showing signs of abating - I'll venture a guess that crime will continue to remain in check even without the disproportionate heavy handedness of before.
I'll get to the rest in a bit, but just wanted to reply to this misguded belief that you seen to possess that progress is only possible if the Policing issue is decoupled from the race issue. Amazing what can be accomplshed when at least TRYING to find solutions, as opposed to STOPPING before even trying due to refusal to cross a contrived philosophical barrier like "We can't discuss race if we want to solve this problem or that. It MUST be decoupled" - as you've seemed to suggest on multiple occasions.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
Yup. Been saying this since that Starbucks race thread a while back.
It's his way or you're a bigot. That is where we are today. It's sad and it is halting progress and widening gaps. Bummer. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
Yep. There are barriers erected by some on both sides for sure. And attitudes like KBCB's certainly build walls as opposed to bring them down.
But in fairness to the one KBCB insists on building, while I think it's counter productive, I think it's one that is honestly earned. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Gotta throw the BS flag on this one. I prayed to St. Google for information about this "Grandma rule" in Canada. St. Google sent me a vision of blankness. |
Ok, now on to this malarky. 
The term "Grandma Rule" is an idiomatic expression of the policy of REACTIVE Policing vs PROACTIVE Policing. I'd hoped the use of the term Proactive Policing as an opposing policy favored by VERY many US jurisdictions would be sufficient, but alas - some things seemed to need to be painfully spelled out verbatim. Had you made more judicious use of St. Google, you'd have been inundated with information as to the difference between Reactive (Colloquailly, the Grandma Rule) vs Proactive Policing. This should help you discern the difference between the two.
| Quote: |
6.0 Policing styles: Reactive versus proactive policing
The three main patrol functions within traditional reactive policing are routine patrol, immediate response to calls, and follow-up investigations (Cordner & Sheehan, 1999: 385-394). Reactive policing can be defined as the police responding to specific requests from individuals or groups in the community which encompasses "immediate response to calls" and "follow-up investigations". However, the rationale for routine patrol is not as straightforward. Traditional thinking suggests that the mere presence of a police vehicle will act as a deterrent to crime (Trojanowicz et al., 2002). According to Crank (1998), routine or random preventative patrol is by definition reactive policing. There is no initiative on the part of the officer or the organization to target a specific area or problem within the geographical patrol district. However, it can also be argued that routine patrol is required in order to facilitate response in a timely manner to dispatch calls.
In contrast, proactive policing involves the ""police, acting on their own initiative, [to] develop information about crime and strategies for its suppression"" (Crank, 1998: 244-245). This can also be interpreted in a myriad of ways. For example, an officer responding reactively to a dispatched call could, nonetheless, resolve the issue proactively by mediating between the parties or using informal action. Similarly, in contrast to routine patrol, directed patrol involves police officers being instructed to monitor specific areas that are identified through problem or crime analysis when they are not responding to dispatch calls (McKenna, 1998). Directed patrol is more proactive than random preventative patrol; however, it still lacks the component of problem oriented policing which engages the community in resolving crime issues. One American study found that proactive policing resulted in more arrests, detention and filing of reports than reactive policing (Seagrave, 1997). Possible reasons suggested were the need for more forceful action to gain "legitimacy and control" as well as officers having made a decision beforehand which prompted a proactive mobilization (Seagrave, 1997: 148). This finding appears to be counterintuitive to what one would expect when officers employ problem-oriented policing. Thus, these findings suggest a need to distinguish clearly between proactive mobilization and problem-oriented policing practices. |
Reactive Vs Proactive Policing
And extending furthur, I'll include the following as a preface to what I'll say next on the subject, so you can avail yourself of the factual information without need to suffer through trying to engage a more robust usage of St. Google:
Canada's National Uniform Framework for the Use of Force By Law Enforcement
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
It's not a bomb. It's an analogy that I think apt. No malice intended. Purely intellectual discourse.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
Yup. Been saying this since that Starbucks race thread a while back.
It's his way or you're a bigot. That is where we are today. It's sad and it is halting progress and widening gaps. Bummer. |
You need to do some research. The only person I've called a bigot on this site is PnP. And frankly, you don't seem to offer any concrete answer for achiveving progress except for Meyerdal's American Creed argument. It was a watered down version of what he really felt and argued.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
Yep. There are barriers erected by some on both sides for sure. And attitudes like KBCB's certainly build walls as opposed to bring them down.
But in fairness to the one KBCB insists on building, while I think it's counter productive, I think it's one that is honestly earned. |
It is what it is 'cause it is what it is. In "Confronting Authority" Professor Bell argued that protest is as likely as not to derail the cause as it is to help a cause to succeed, but you do it anyway because it rescues your sense of self and confirms your humanity.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Last edited by KobeBryantCliffordBrown on Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Gotta throw the BS flag on this one. I prayed to St. Google for information about this "Grandma rule" in Canada. St. Google sent me a vision of blankness. |
Ok, now on to this malarky. |
Emoticons really don't make you look any smarter. You made up the "Grandma rule" in Canada. An emoticon won't change that fact. You appear to have spent a few hours trying to find something to support your nonsense, but unfortunately for you, you struck out.
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | The term "Grandma Rule" is an idiomatic expression of the policy of REACTIVE Policing vs PROACTIVE Policing. |
Bull. Reactive policing is not "the Grandma rule." Anyway, you omit the fact that, according to the article you cited, the majority of Canadian cops say that they do "a bit of both." You'd get a similar answer in the US. Just admit it -- there is no Grandma rule in Canada.
Again, bull. That isn't even talking about "reactive policing," much less the "Grandma rule." It's talking about the use of force principles in Canada.
You made up the whole thing. Calling it malarky, using an emoticon, and citing to irrelevant discussions on the internet does not change anything. The rest of us can read, too. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
So white America has to accept your viewpoint and agenda, or else. Good luck with that one. This is why you're part of the problem. If I don't capitulate to your viewpoint, I'm analogous to a white slave owner. Wow. |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | Well, frankly, it is actually. To varying degrees to be sure and their is a MOUNTAIN of research and data that proves that as opposed to your wish to make it not so. You'd do better to accept that as a starting point in order to move forward. But when you stonewall the basic fact of American Life, then you stay stuck, forever. |
Nope, but this is why folks like you are a big part of the problem. Your agenda forecloses a solution other than total capitulation by white America, including people who would otherwise be sympathetic to you. |
That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
Was able to large agree with you until the bolded part.
This is part of the reason people can't honestly talk. Throwing bombs like that just creates a wall. |
Yup. Been saying this since that Starbucks race thread a while back.
It's his way or you're a bigot. That is where we are today. It's sad and it is halting progress and widening gaps. Bummer. |
You need to do some research. The only person I've called a bigot on this site is PnP. And frankly, you don't seem to offer any concrete answer for achiveving progress except for Meyerdal's American Creed argument. It was a watered down version of what he really felt and argued. |
You're right. You never called someone a bigot. Just a slave owner. Clearly not the same thing. |
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the association
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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:04 am Post subject: |
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As far as I'm concerned, the not-so-subtle "get over it" talking points and other efforts to defang the race issues in this country by characterizing as "the real problem" those who raise their hands and call B.S. (which we see so often in the back-and-forth here in this thread) are just transparent stall tactics to avoid real efforts to reform the system. While clearly broken, the system works really well for the fortunate few and their particular interests. Sometimes it's a very, very feeble mind harboring racist and bigoted views. Sometimes it's a person who just cannot manage to stomach the idea of equal rights, even as he's spouting off about equality like it's "his thing" and (unsuccessfully) trying to convince you that he's "all for it". And sometimes it's a person of color who cannot get out of his own way in advocating against his own self-interests for some deep-seated psychological reason. Regardless of the circumstances, it's really the same library of stall tactics at work.
It's a very, very old tactic ... parents use it with their children, countries use it with their constituents (and their subjugated and dispossessed refugees, in one evergreen case), and it happens here, too. The guy trying to convince you that discussions cannot even happen until "pre-condition x" has been met is the very same guy who has absolutely no intention of allowing that conversation to EVER take place, much less lead to anything other than the status quo (or perhaps some backslide position FOR YOU).
Pretending otherwise is reserved for the realm of fools ...
Last edited by the association on Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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lakerjoshua
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | It's a very, very old tactic ... parents use it with their children, countries use it with their constituents (and their subjugated and dispossessed refugees, in one evergreen case), and it happens here, too. The guy trying to convince you that discussions cannot even happen until "pre-condition x" has been met is the very same guy who has absolutely no intention of allowing that conversation to EVER take place, much less lead to anything other than the status quo (or perhaps some backslide position FOR YOU).
Pretending otherwise is reserved for the realm of fools ... |
When you're done patting yourself on the back, you might want to consider which side is demanding the pre-condition in this discussion, and which side has no intention of ever allowing the conversation to take place. The answer isn't quite as clear as you seem to think. |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I'm guessing that one had as much to do with corruption as it did race. The guy had been Mayor for 37 years and the P.D. was tiny. Not saying race wasn't a factor, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some shadiness that was going on. |
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lakerjoshua
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Posts: 11277
Location: Bay Area
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
I'm guessing that one had as much to do with corruption as it did race. The guy had been Mayor for 37 years and the P.D. was tiny. Not saying race wasn't a factor, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some shadiness that was going on. |
Some of the comments seem to indicate that as well and makes a lot of sense. This should go in the ex-cops thread  |
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KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | That's a ridiculous argument. The research and data are there and easily found. My agenda is for people to acknowledge what is clearly true about race and move forward from there. But you can't because you don't want to accept that you benefit, that you are part of the problem and that your recalcitrance in admitting the truth is the biggest barrier we face in trying to fix what may be fixable. Blaming me for your faults is akin to the the white slave owner sitting in his veranda talking about how his Slaves have become lazy. |
So white America has to accept your viewpoint and agenda, or else. Good luck with that one. This is why you're part of the problem. If I don't capitulate to your viewpoint, I'm analogous to a white slave owner. Wow. |
Well, if we are to ever solve this problem, yes, Americans are going to have to accept the truth that so many of us try to deny, white as well as black, not to mention brown, yellow and everyone else. Race has been the central challenge facing this nation even before the Framers of the Bill of rights made their deal with the Devil so to speak.
I have no belief in mine or anyone else's luck however. Intransigence is as high as it ever has been and racism is so institutionalized that even if every American individual suddenly freed themselves from it, the institutional momentum and codes would ensure continued disparate outcomes based solely on race.
You and I, all of us, are part of the problem and will be part of any potential solution because the only things that can POSSIBLE save us on this matter is acceptance, inclusion, love and wisdom. You are as trapped into your POV as I am, I'm just more aware, or rather, willing to be honest. And that's why the analogy. Whether from intellectual dishonesty or lack of insight, the relative positions hold and are absolutely analogous.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
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