Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

Sting wrote:
Where would you rank Jordan Clarkson among the rest of the league? Ranking on the basis of production and future forecast.. Here is my top 10

1. Kyrie
2. John Wall
3. Lillard
4. Holiday
5. B Knight
6. Rubio
7. E Payton
8. Clarkson
9. Schroder/Exum
10. B Jennings

Others
Marcus Smart, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams

let me know if I'm being bias


It's a tough question when you mix in "potential" because it's notoriously hard to predict future performance of young point guards: A lot of them come out of the box playing well as rookies but never progress beyond their initial level. A number of Hall of Fame point guards had slow starts (John Stockton shot 18% from 3-point line in his rookie season), but blossomed in their second, third or fourth season.

Very tough position for crystal balling.
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Dave20
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject:

misterrunon wrote:
Dave20 wrote:
Irving is a scorer with good handles. He doesn't always guard the opposing PG, Shumpert does. He excites a lot of fans with his scoring, but his defense and passing is below avg for his position.

Wall is just on another level IMO, Westbrook like athleticism with DB speed that can win games in more ways. He's one of those rare physical specimens.


Kyrie's defense is at worst equal to JC's.. it's improved this year. And on offense, JC isn't close to being as good as Kyrie. He's got better handles, shooting, and finishing.
I wasn't comparing Kyrie's game to JC, it was to John Wall. JC is still a rookie, his defense will improve. Kyrie been in the league for 4 years and he's still an average defender and passer. Great scorer, but without Lebron he couldn't carry the Cavs.
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TheElectronica
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

Sting wrote:
Where would you rank Jordan Clarkson among the rest of the league? Ranking on the basis of production and future forecast.. Here is my top 10

1. Kyrie
2. John Wall
3. Lillard
4. Holiday
5. B Knight
6. Rubio
7. E Payton
8. Clarkson
9. Schroder/Exum
10. B Jennings

Others
Marcus Smart, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams

let me know if I'm being bias

Defensively, Marcus Smart is light years ahead of Clarkson. I think Schorder is better as well.

Only players I'd rank Clarkson over would be Burke and Exum for now, and I think he is on-par with Michael Carter Williams. Exum has potential to develop as he is still only 19 and very raw.

In a few years? I can see Wall being the best and Clarkson being top 10 possibly.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

TheElectronica wrote:
Sting wrote:
Where would you rank Jordan Clarkson among the rest of the league? Ranking on the basis of production and future forecast.. Here is my top 10

1. Kyrie
2. John Wall
3. Lillard
4. Holiday
5. B Knight
6. Rubio
7. E Payton
8. Clarkson
9. Schroder/Exum
10. B Jennings

Others
Marcus Smart, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams

let me know if I'm being bias

Defensively, Marcus Smart is light years ahead of Clarkson. I think Schorder is better as well.

Only players I'd rank Clarkson over would be Burke and Exum for now, and I think he is on-par with Michael Carter Williams. Exum has potential to develop as he is still only 19 and very raw.

In a few years? I can see Wall being the best and Clarkson being top 10 possibly.


Clarkson is better than Smart. His offense and poise is light years ahead of Smart.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Exum gotta be dead last
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lakersfan32
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject:

Thugnomoe wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Exum gotta be dead last


Exum and Embiid are both tanking so they could end up with the Lakers in 3 years, lol.
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Worthy42
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:29 am    Post subject:

Marcus Smart is NOT light years ahead of Jordan in anything other then losing his head and grabbing opponents family jewels.

And if MCW ever found a brain or a jumpshot he'd be worth something. Right now Zach Lavine has surpassed him in the potential table of discussion.
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:02 am    Post subject:

WOW, the overhype of Clarkson is getting out of control imo. I mean he is a really nice player, but alot of these rooks have played better toward the end of the season. Especially playing for bum rosters with no expectations.

I'm not saying Clarkson will not be good one day, but he is not even close to being there, or the end all be all imo.

I think Mitch would trade Clarkson in a heartbeat if the deal was right. I would trade the top 5 and Clarkson for Cousins every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

22 wrote:
TheElectronica wrote:
Sting wrote:
Where would you rank Jordan Clarkson among the rest of the league? Ranking on the basis of production and future forecast.. Here is my top 10

1. Kyrie
2. John Wall
3. Lillard
4. Holiday
5. B Knight
6. Rubio
7. E Payton
8. Clarkson
9. Schroder/Exum
10. B Jennings

Others
Marcus Smart, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams

let me know if I'm being bias

Defensively, Marcus Smart is light years ahead of Clarkson. I think Schorder is better as well.

Only players I'd rank Clarkson over would be Burke and Exum for now, and I think he is on-par with Michael Carter Williams. Exum has potential to develop as he is still only 19 and very raw.

In a few years? I can see Wall being the best and Clarkson being top 10 possibly.


Clarkson is better than Smart. His offense and poise is light years ahead of Smart.


I think Smart is much better defensively. I think Smart is closer offensively to Clarkson then Clarkson is defensively to Smart.

Clarkson has not even had to try and play defense all year, there has been no pressure, he has been able to just focus on his offense.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:45 am    Post subject:

Tony Anapolis wrote:
WOW, the overhype of Clarkson is getting out of control imo. I mean he is a really nice player, but alot of these rooks have played better toward the end of the season. Especially playing for bum rosters with no expectations.

I'm not saying Clarkson will not be good one day, but he is not even close to being there, or the end all be all imo.

I think Mitch would trade Clarkson in a heartbeat if the deal was right. I would trade the top 5 and Clarkson for Cousins every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


I think your reaction is what is out of control. Not a lot of rookies had a better end of season than him. As a matter of fact no rookie had a better March or April than Clarkson, the only rookies in his ball park were Andrew Wiggins and Rodney Hood. There is a reason Coach Scott said the lakers gotta build around Clarkson, he was that good. Now should he be on the list, absolutely is he top 5 of course not. But he should be in the discussion and hopefully he gets better but let's not act like people are being delusional being excited about Clarkson, as they should.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

Tony Anapolis wrote:
22 wrote:
TheElectronica wrote:
Sting wrote:
Where would you rank Jordan Clarkson among the rest of the league? Ranking on the basis of production and future forecast.. Here is my top 10

1. Kyrie
2. John Wall
3. Lillard
4. Holiday
5. B Knight
6. Rubio
7. E Payton
8. Clarkson
9. Schroder/Exum
10. B Jennings

Others
Marcus Smart, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams

let me know if I'm being bias

Defensively, Marcus Smart is light years ahead of Clarkson. I think Schorder is better as well.

Only players I'd rank Clarkson over would be Burke and Exum for now, and I think he is on-par with Michael Carter Williams. Exum has potential to develop as he is still only 19 and very raw.

In a few years? I can see Wall being the best and Clarkson being top 10 possibly.


Clarkson is better than Smart. His offense and poise is light years ahead of Smart.


I think Smart is much better defensively. I think Smart is closer offensively to Clarkson then Clarkson is defensively to Smart.

Clarkson has not even had to try and play defense all year, there has been no pressure, he has been able to just focus on his offense.


Even Celtic's homer and NBA writer Zach Lowe disagrees with you. He's got Clarkson on his all rookie 1st team edging out Smart. That should tell you something.

In addition to the fact that Smart got good minutes all year, while Clarkson was only allowed to get minutes after the all star break.

And they both play on scrub teams so that argument is moot. Clarkson has been far more impressive
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

Tony Anapolis wrote:
22 wrote:
TheElectronica wrote:
Sting wrote:
Where would you rank Jordan Clarkson among the rest of the league? Ranking on the basis of production and future forecast.. Here is my top 10

1. Kyrie
2. John Wall
3. Lillard
4. Holiday
5. B Knight
6. Rubio
7. E Payton
8. Clarkson
9. Schroder/Exum
10. B Jennings

Others
Marcus Smart, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams

let me know if I'm being bias

Defensively, Marcus Smart is light years ahead of Clarkson. I think Schorder is better as well.

Only players I'd rank Clarkson over would be Burke and Exum for now, and I think he is on-par with Michael Carter Williams. Exum has potential to develop as he is still only 19 and very raw.

In a few years? I can see Wall being the best and Clarkson being top 10 possibly.


Clarkson is better than Smart. His offense and poise is light years ahead of Smart.


I think Smart is much better defensively. I think Smart is closer offensively to Clarkson then Clarkson is defensively to Smart.

Clarkson has not even had to try and play defense all year, there has been no pressure, he has been able to just focus on his offense.

Clarkson has been way better offensively and I don't really think its all that close.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:39 am    Post subject:

Tony Anapolis wrote:
WOW, the overhype of Clarkson is getting out of control imo. I mean he is a really nice player, but alot of these rooks have played better toward the end of the season. Especially playing for bum rosters with no expectations.

I'm not saying Clarkson will not be good one day, but he is not even close to being there, or the end all be all imo.

I think Mitch would trade Clarkson in a heartbeat if the deal was right. I would trade the top 5 and Clarkson for Cousins every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Nearly 30% of Clarkson shots are within 3'.
He converts at a 66.5% within that area. WAY elite.
12.6% TO rate
Near 25% Assist rate
47.6% from mid-range. Elite.
Assist to TO ratio greater than 2:1.

Terrible D rating.

Marcus Smart:
36.7%FG
17.6% of his shots within 3'.
57% of his shots are behind the arc.
56% finisher within 3'.
Below average 3'-10', 16'-21' Roughly 25%.
Assist to TO Ratio greater than 2:1.
Great steal rate.

Terrible D rating.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:45 am    Post subject:

The only argument I can see for Smart is that the Celtics were 23-12 once they put him in the starting lineup in early february.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:53 am    Post subject:

Clarkson also has a higher usage rate which makes those stats even more impressive.

Kingpin2010 wrote:
The only argument I can see for Smart is that the Celtics were 23-12 once they put him in the starting lineup in early february.

How much of that was Thomas though?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
Clarkson also has a higher usage rate which makes those stats even more impressive.

Kingpin2010 wrote:
The only argument I can see for Smart is that the Celtics were 23-12 once they put him in the starting lineup in early february.

How much of that was Thomas though?


Some. Frankly, he can't stay on the court without Smart's defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject:

Exum looks lost out there... To be fair he's only 19 if I'm not mistaken.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:09 pm    Post subject:

Clarkson is 22 so he's more seasoned, I LA to build around him and forget about going after Rondo ass!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
WOW, the overhype of Clarkson is getting out of control imo. I mean he is a really nice player, but alot of these rooks have played better toward the end of the season. Especially playing for bum rosters with no expectations.

I'm not saying Clarkson will not be good one day, but he is not even close to being there, or the end all be all imo.

I think Mitch would trade Clarkson in a heartbeat if the deal was right. I would trade the top 5 and Clarkson for Cousins every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Nearly 30% of Clarkson shots are within 3'.
He converts at a 66.5% within that area. WAY elite.
12.6% TO rate
Near 25% Assist rate
47.6% from mid-range. Elite.
Assist to TO ratio greater than 2:1.

Terrible D rating.

Marcus Smart:
36.7%FG
17.6% of his shots within 3'.
57% of his shots are behind the arc.
56% finisher within 3'.
Below average 3'-10', 16'-21' Roughly 25%.
Assist to TO Ratio greater than 2:1.
Great steal rate.

Terrible D rating.


Yup, the stats speak for themselves. Clarkson is already good, he's on his way to elite if he continues to improve.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:51 pm    Post subject:

Kingpin2010 wrote:
The only argument I can see for Smart is that the Celtics were 23-12 once they put him in the starting lineup in early february.
The Celtics are winning because they traded away Rondo and have a good coach. Smart has been good defensively, but Turner, Thomas, and Bradley are their three best players.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

Tony Anapolis wrote:
I think Smart is much better defensively. I think Smart is closer offensively to Clarkson then Clarkson is defensively to Smart.


Yeah, though Smart isn't that close to Clarkson offensively. Smart may have more upside, because he can upgrade his offensive skills. However, upside is speculative. In the here and now, I'd give the edge to Clarkson.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Clarkson ranking among 25 and under point guards?

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
I think Smart is much better defensively. I think Smart is closer offensively to Clarkson then Clarkson is defensively to Smart.


Yeah, though Smart isn't that close to Clarkson offensively. Smart may have more upside, because he can upgrade his offensive skills. However, upside is speculative. In the here and now, I'd give the edge to Clarkson.


Offensively, I'm actually more impressed with the improvement that Clarkson showed over the course of the season compared to what improvement Smart showed since his college days - he went back to school for another year to work on his game. This isn't to say that Smart has less upside. And his defense will always be an asset.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject:

Since Clarkson is an actual rookie we drafted, I'd say it's fine to overrate him. He's shown that he can compete. Next season, we'll have even more rookies and an even younger team. This is one of the best times we'll have to rave our about players. After all, we rarely get this chance and it's been a long time coming.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:25 pm    Post subject:

Sure. Upside is subjective and is often influenced by the perspective of the person making the evaluation. I'd love it if Clarkson turned out to have a high upside that he manages to realize. We're due for one of those second surprises that other teams seem to get from time to time.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:18 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Exum gotta be dead last


Exum is still very much a kid.

I think he's still got potential. He'll have to grow into it though.


I agree. Word is he's a great defender and responsible for much of Utah's improvement in 2nd half of season.
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