Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29281 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:06 am Post subject:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I think they'd get beaten more than people think. Guys today are stronger and faster. I doubt they would win as many games.
This is always the cross era dilemma. If you take them as is, then I agree. If you assume they have the same access to training and such, then I think they are still dominant, because their inherent talent isn't degraded in such an evolutionary nanosecond.
So, if Wilt Chamberlin had access to modern day training, would it even be legal for him to play in the NBA?
Wilt would probably be spending too much time in court for paternity suits to play.
I know Wilt.
And Dwight Howard, you sir are no Wilt Chamberlin.
I'm a sucker for double entendre. Post of the day so far IMO! _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
KobeRe-Loaded wrote:
Lakers2015 wrote:
Nobody. I don't care what era you're talking about. That team ain't losing to anyone.
We had by far and away the best point guard in the game. The best big man who aged gracefully because of incredibly skill and a non reliance on quickness and athleticism.
Coop was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time. Scott was one of those guys during the rare moments that James, Magic, and KAJ weren't going could pick us up and get us going.
Worthy was a terrific two way player and one of the most underrated players of all time.
Yes it would've been tougher with how much more athletic today's players are, but still their overwhelming skill would be too much for anyone to defeat.
They lost to the new era Pistons in 89'. Pistons were the early incarnation of Pat Riley's NY Knick physical style defense which forced the NBA to put in rule changes.
With the starting backcourt out with injury.
Yeah. People forget they were undefeated out of the west that year after playing three straight game 7's the year before. They were hungry and killing it, and I don't think Detroit wins more than a game or two if Scott and Magic play.
They would win 70 games and the championship by sweep against the Hawks or Cavs. Kareem would be unstoppable, teams would have to double him every possession or he would avg 35/12. Magic passing, rebounding, and size advantage would be too much for Curry, Irving, or Teague. Worthy would have a field day against the weak defense in this era. I don't think most games would be close.
Stats if they played in todays era
Kareem 30/12/5
Worthy 23/10/5
Magic 17/15/11
They could avg more but they would be taken out by the 4th because of the blowouts.
They would win 70 games and the championship by sweep against the Hawks or Cavs. Kareem would be unstoppable, teams would have to double him every possession or he would avg 35/12. Magic passing, rebounding, and size advantage would be too much for Curry, Irving, or Teague. Worthy would have a field day against the weak defense in this era. I don't think most games would be close.
Stats if they played in todays era
Kareem 30/12/5
Worthy 23/10/5
Magic 17/15/11
They could avg more but they would be taken out by the 4th because of the blowouts.
I'm sorry, but not even close. Post players didn't suddenly fall off of the face of the earth. The rules changed, and mostly legislated them out of the game. A lineup where at least 3 of your guys can't shoot beyond mid range is untenable under today's rules. That, plus the slower pace of play, make those numbers ludicrous.
Certain post players will be great regardless of era. Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem would be unstoppable against the C's in todays NBA. There isn't much post play today because there isn't any great post players. Once the next great post player comes back, the rules will change again. Defense alone that team would be great, the showtime Lakers had size and length to compete against any team.
My putting Magic at the SF does not mean I am giving the point guard duties to Coop (I was drunk, but not that drunk). Magic would run the offense from the SF position. He would eat up most of today's SF's on offense, and be better able to defend that position over going up against today's PGs.
People keep saying that the hands off defense rules would hurt the Lakers. But, no more than it hurts their opponents. It would take a little getting used to, but then they would be on even ground.
GT thinks worthy was not a great rebounder because he leaked out after the shot. Well, it is amazing that he got as many rebounds considering he did that. Also, he had huge rebounding games in the play offs (High teens to low twenties). So, I stand by my assessment of his rebounding skills.
Some think Kareem was weak and would get pushed around. He went up against some really strong players (Moses, Haywood, Lanier, etc) and held his own. He would still dominate.
I think they'd get beaten more than people think. Guys today are stronger and faster. I doubt they would win as many games.
This is always the cross era dilemma. If you take them as is, then I agree. If you assume they have the same access to training and such, then I think they are still dominant, because their inherent talent isn't degraded in such an evolutionary nanosecond.
But we would also have to bring back 1987 Gary Vitti. Otherwise the entire team would get injured
GT stated [/quote] I'm sorry, but not even close. Post players didn't suddenly fall off of the face of the earth. The rules changed, and mostly legislated them out of the game. A lineup where at least 3 of your guys can't shoot beyond mid range is untenable under today's rules. That, plus the slower pace of play, make those numbers ludicrous.[/quote]
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
Certain post players will be great regardless of era. Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem would be unstoppable against the C's in todays NBA. There isn't much post play today because there isn't any great post players. Once the next great post player comes back, the rules will change again. Defense alone that team would be great, the showtime Lakers had size and length to compete against any team.
If you choose to believe that great post players simply went "poof" in the last 20 years, despite that coinciding with the largest overall expansion of the talent pool in history, I don't know what to say. The reality is that someone like Pau Gasol is every bit as skilled and talented as someone like Kevin McHale was in the post, yet even his highest scoring year was 20.8ppg, while McHale at his best had 5 straight years scoring more than that. It isn't some incredible statistical oddity that NO great post players were born amidst an enormous talent expansion, which just so happens to coincide with NBA defenses implementing zone principles into their defensive concepts in the mid-2000's.
Of course guys like Wilt, Shaq, & Kareem would still be great, but certainly not as great as they were. Not a chance. The talent's better, and the rules are more punitive toward what they do.
As for the bolded, neither Magic, Worthy, nor Kareem (at that point) were notable defensive players.
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
^^^ Agreed to say that KAreem wouldn't be as effective in today's era is frankly just disrespectful to the Captain. He would dominate guys like Howard and Jordan... too smart and too skilled.
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
Yes, the rules changed. That's it. Entire populations (big kids) don't make uniform decisions across the board in any element of life. So every single big kid decided he wanted to be the next Magic or Dirk, and NONE of them decided they wanted to be the next Olajuwon or Robinson?
The 80's players were tougher as well. There would be no flopping and they would finish through contact. I think they would lead the league in scoring by a large margin, in the 120's. I don't think some understand just how unstoppable Kareem was. I can picture it now with Kareem in the post. Doubles wouldn't matter, he would just shoot the hook shot right over them. They could go small and have Worthy at PF, then it would be really scary. Prime Pat Riley would be the coach too.
In a finals against the Cavs, Lebron would look like a different player with 6'9 Worthy guarding him and Kareem in the paint. He would be complaining of how physical the players are. Love would a non factor. Kyrie would get his 20 to 25 points, but Magic will have nearly triple the assist and rebounds. I don't think it would be close.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject:
Dave20 wrote:
The 80's players were tougher as well. There would be no flopping and they would finish through contact. I think they would lead the league in scoring by a large margin, in the 120's. I don't think some understand just how unstoppable Kareem was. I can picture it now with Kareem in the post. Doubles wouldn't matter, he would just shoot the hook shot right over them. They could go small and have Worthy at PF, then it would be really scary. Prime Pat Riley would be the coach too.
In a finals against the Cavs, Lebron would look like a different player with 6'9 Worthy guarding him and Kareem in the paint. He would be complaining of how physical the players are. Love would a non factor. Kyrie would get his 20 to 25 points, but Magic will have nearly triple the assist and rebounds. I don't think it would be close.
I'm a big believer that that talent would adapt well to today's game, but some of that is just ridiculous.
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
Yes, the rules changed. That's it. Entire populations (big kids) don't make uniform decisions across the board in any element of life. So every single big kid decided he wanted to be the next Magic or Dirk, and NONE of them decided they wanted to be the next Olajuwon or Robinson?
I agree the rules changed. I also agree that it makes it harder on the post player. But I disagree that desire to play a certain style did not have an effect. If a kid has the slightest talent, he starts playing like "Mike", or Garnett, etc. Even the big kids. Okafor is the first kid I've seen in a long time to really work on his post game. And high school and college type play does not make post play irrelevant. It is just that post play is not flashy enough and all the kids want to be flashy. When is the last time you saw a guy shoot a bank shot, even though it is a higher % shot? A bank shot is not considered "cool". So, they do not use it. Todays league is all about flash (and trash talk). A lower percentage of players concentrate on the fundamentals, compared to the past.
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
^^^ Agreed to say that KAreem wouldn't be as effective in today's era is frankly just disrespectful to the Captain. He would dominate guys like Howard and Jordan... too smart and too skilled.
It's not a 1-on-1 game any more. That's not who they'd be going up against. They'd be battling against 3/4 denial against not only the center, but sagging perimeter players. Most post catches are MUCH farther out on the perimeter now as a result. The sagging on the post entry pass was illegal in their day. And if they caught the ball, there would be no soft double teams via stunting. It had to be a hard double.
In the 80's and 90's, MUCH of the offensive action involved putting your two best players on one side of the floor, and everyone else on the other side by the 3 point line. It didn't matter if those 3 guys couldn't shoot a lick. You couldn't sag off of them (illegal defense), and if you hard doubled off of a non-shooter, they'd just dive cut to the basket. Completely different defensive rules.
Last edited by GoldenThroat on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
I agree the rules changed. I also agree that it makes it harder on the post player. But I disagree that desire to play a certain style did not have an effect. If a kid has the slightest talent, he starts playing like "Mike", or Garnett, etc. Even the big kids. Okafor is the first kid I've seen in a long time to really work on his post game. And high school and college type play does not make post play irrelevant. It is just that post play is not flashy enough and all the kids want to be flashy. When is the last time you saw a guy shoot a bank shot, even though it is a higher % shot? A bank shot is not considered "cool". So, they do not use it. Todays league is all about flash (and trash talk). A lower percentage of players concentrate on the fundamentals, compared to the past.
I didn't say it didn't have an effect. I said that not every single big kid decided he was going to be the next Magic or Dirk.
Once again, not all kids "want to be flashy." Just like every other generation in the history of human kind, "kids these days" run the gamut of personality types. There were over 1,500 bank shots taken from 8-16 feet this year. You're seeing what you want to see.
There are more resources being poured into player development from a young age than ever before. The "kids these days" stuff was around when Magic was playing too.
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
^^^ Agreed to say that KAreem wouldn't be as effective in today's era is frankly just disrespectful to the Captain. He would dominate guys like Howard and Jordan... too smart and too skilled.
It's so easy to score in this era. Kareem would be unstoppable and so would the Lakers.
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
^^^ Agreed to say that KAreem wouldn't be as effective in today's era is frankly just disrespectful to the Captain. He would dominate guys like Howard and Jordan... too smart and too skilled.
It's so easy to score in this era. Kareem would be unstoppable and so would the Lakers.
If it's so easy to score in this era, why is scoring so much lower in this era?
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:45 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
The Grind wrote:
Dylandogg wrote:
Did the rules change, or did every big kid decide he wants to be the next Magic or Dirk? Heck, even Bynum wanted to launch 3's. Todays big man has more interest in playing the game that way. It is not that the rules made the change, it was a change in how the big kids decided they wanted to play. You get a big to dedicate himself to the low post offense and learn how to pass out of the double team, and that guy is going to be very effective in this league, in spite of the rules.
Magic, Scott and Coop could all hit the 3 effectively to space the D. Worthy had a terrific Midrange game.
^^^ Agreed to say that KAreem wouldn't be as effective in today's era is frankly just disrespectful to the Captain. He would dominate guys like Howard and Jordan... too smart and too skilled.
It's not a 1-on-1 game any more. That's not who they'd be going up against. They'd be battling against 3/4 denial against not only the center, but sagging perimeter players. Most post catches are MUCH farther out on the perimeter now as a result. The sagging on the post entry pass was illegal in their day. And if they caught the ball, there would be no soft double teams via stunting. It had to be a hard double.
In the 80's and 90's, MUCH of the offensive action involved putting your two best players on one side of the floor, and everyone else on the other side by the 3 point line. It didn't matter if those 3 guys couldn't shoot a lick. You couldn't sag off of them (illegal defense), and if you hard doubled off of a non-shooter, they'd just dive cut to the basket. Completely different defensive rules.
It's also why there were a lot of really good PGs who couldn't shoot, because they didn't have to worry about their defender sagging off them to deny the post entry. Certainly didn't have to worry about the 2nd defensive big lurking on the weak side of the lane (or more accurately, in the lane for a couple seconds at a time and then stepping out to "cleanse" the 3 second clock)
It's also why there were a lot of really good PGs who couldn't shoot, because they didn't have to worry about their defender sagging off them to deny the post entry. Certainly didn't have to worry about the 2nd defensive big lurking on the weak side of the lane (or more accurately, in the lane for a couple seconds at a time and then stepping out to "cleanse" the 3 second clock)
Absolutely. The vast increase in allowable zone principles have placed a premium on outside shooting to counter what you just posted here. The rules of any era will lead to different skill sets being more/less important.
I'd also argue that the increased usage of data has changed the game beyond just rule changes. If we were to reinstitute the defensive rules of the 80's and 90's, you'd see a re-emergence of post play, but I think you'd continue to see 3-pointers taking the place of the mid range game.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:55 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Dave20 wrote:
They would win 70 games and the championship by sweep against the Hawks or Cavs. Kareem would be unstoppable, teams would have to double him every possession or he would avg 35/12. Magic passing, rebounding, and size advantage would be too much for Curry, Irving, or Teague. Worthy would have a field day against the weak defense in this era. I don't think most games would be close.
Stats if they played in todays era
Kareem 30/12/5
Worthy 23/10/5
Magic 17/15/11
They could avg more but they would be taken out by the 4th because of the blowouts.
I'm sorry, but not even close. Post players didn't suddenly fall off of the face of the earth. The rules changed, and mostly legislated them out of the game. A lineup where at least 3 of your guys can't shoot beyond mid range is untenable under today's rules. That, plus the slower pace of play, make those numbers ludicrous.
Kareem 30/12/5
Worthy 23/10/5
Magic 17/15/11
I'd go with
Kareem 22/11/3
Worthy 20 5 3
Magic 18 9 7
Like adjusting for pace. Kareem's midrange game is still the skyhook. Worthy would look like a polished version of Andrew Wiggins current skill set in the high post.
Magic is still Magic. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
24 wrote:
It's also why there were a lot of really good PGs who couldn't shoot, because they didn't have to worry about their defender sagging off them to deny the post entry. Certainly didn't have to worry about the 2nd defensive big lurking on the weak side of the lane (or more accurately, in the lane for a couple seconds at a time and then stepping out to "cleanse" the 3 second clock)
Absolutely. The vast increase in allowable zone principles have placed a premium on outside shooting to counter what you just posted here. The rules of any era will lead to different skill sets being more/less important.
I'd also argue that the increased usage of data has changed the game beyond just rule changes. If we were to reinstitute the defensive rules of the 80's and 90's, you'd see a re-emergence of post play, but I think you'd continue to see 3-pointers taking the place of the mid range game.
And a lot more cutting, because there is no free safety on the weak side whose job it is to not only help in the lane, but to "tag" cutters from the weak side
I'd go with
Kareem 22/11/3
Worthy 20 5 3
Magic 18 9 7
Like adjusting for pace. Kareem's midrange game is still the skyhook. Worthy would look like a polished version of Andrew Wiggins current skill set in the high post.
Magic is still Magic.
I think Magic's the player that would be impacted the least. He'd still have a physical advantage, coupled with incredible ball-handling/passing ability. His lack of shooting ability would have been less important.
Kareem's post catches would be farther out, and I think he'd have some ball-handling difficulties with stunting guards. He also never averaged more than 7.9rpg after Worthy got there. I don't know where you guys are getting this 11rpg stuff from, considering what Showtime Kareem actually was, and considering that the pace is slower.
It would be curious to see Worthy in today's game. He'd be a stretch 4, but wasn't a particularly good rebounder or defender, and wasn't a good shooter. He was phenomenal in transition and in iso situations.
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I'm a sucker for double entendre. Post of the day so far IMO!
