Average Team PPG in 1985 = 110.8
Lowest Team PPG in 1985 = 102.1
Average Team PPG in 2015 = 100.0
There's a lot of teams tanking this year, some of the top teams don't play their starters in the 4th qrt. The top teams were better in the 80's. The overall league was better and that was with hand checking and hard fouls. James Harden gets most of his points from the FT line, I don't think he would be considered great in the 80's. I just think Kareem would have been much better in this era.
Average Team PPG in 1985 = 110.8
Lowest Team PPG in 1985 = 102.1
Average Team PPG in 2015 = 100.0
There's a lot of teams tanking this year, some of the top teams don't play their starters in the 4th qrt. The top teams were better in the 80's. The overall league was better and that was with hand checking and hard fouls. James Harden gets most of his points from the FT line, I don't think he would be considered great in the 80's. I just think Kareem would have been much better in this era.
Which top teams don't play their starters in the 4th quarter? And wouldn't teams tanking allow for higher scoring amongst the teams that aren't?
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Kareem 30/12/5
Worthy 23/10/5
Magic 17/15/11
I'd go with
Kareem 22/11/3
Worthy 20 5 3
Magic 18 9 7
Like adjusting for pace. Kareem's midrange game is still the skyhook. Worthy would look like a polished version of Andrew Wiggins current skill set in the high post.
Magic is still Magic.
I think Magic's the player that would be impacted the least. He'd still have a physical advantage, coupled with incredible ball-handling/passing ability. His lack of shooting ability would have been less important.
Kareem's post catches would be farther out, and I think he'd have some ball-handling difficulties with stunting guards. He also never averaged more than 7.9rpg after Worthy got there. I don't know where you guys are getting this 11rpg stuff from, considering what Showtime Kareem actually was, and considering that the pace is slower.
It would be curious to see Worthy in today's game. He'd be a stretch 4, but wasn't a particularly good rebounder or defender, and wasn't a good shooter. He was phenomenal in transition and in iso situations.
Magic = 18/11/8
Kareem = 18/6.5
Worthy = 17/5/2
I think Magic would have been better in this era. Would have developed the shot earlier, and all the other stuff translates directly. Would have been, like Kobe, a guy who could dribble into the post as well. On defense, he was one of the great team defenders, like Bird, well ahead of his time. Would have been great in this era with his ability to hedge, read the offense, and switch onto anyone. Probably could play all five positions in today's game.
Disagree a bit on Worthy. He also would have developed the shot earlier, and i see a Marion on steroids role on offense, with the ability to give him the ball and let him attack. Quickest first step I ever saw in a guy his size, and none of the steps after was slower. And Worthy was a guy they often stuck on guards defensively, both because of his quick feet and to get him out in transition. He and Magic and Cooper and Scott would be able to cause a lot of problems in a team defensive scheme.
Kareem might have the toughest time, but as a Hibbert type anchor, he'd be fine on D, and his offense would still work because he ate doubles up, and he'd pick apart the hedges and stunts.
The thing that gets understated with that team is their IQ. just a really smart group of guys.
The Warriors, Hawks, Spurs all rest their starters in meaningless games. Players in the 80's didn't need to "rest" or take 2 weeks off like Lebron has. This era is by far the weakest of the 3 IMO as far as talent. coaching, officiating, complaining, and everything else. You get touched you go to the FT line. Kareem, Worthy, and Magic would made it look easy.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:49 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Dave20 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Average Team PPG in 1985 = 110.8
Lowest Team PPG in 1985 = 102.1
Average Team PPG in 2015 = 100.0
There's a lot of teams tanking this year, some of the top teams don't play their starters in the 4th qrt. The top teams were better in the 80's. The overall league was better and that was with hand checking and hard fouls. James Harden gets most of his points from the FT line, I don't think he would be considered great in the 80's. I just think Kareem would have been much better in this era.
Which top teams don't play their starters in the 4th quarter? And wouldn't teams tanking allow for higher scoring amongst the teams that aren't?
This is a clear case of just defending a premise while either having no clue, or simply ignoring the reality. The pace and FG% of teams is down from that period, and the defensive skill (and ability to zone) is way up.
I think Magic would have been better in this era. Would have developed the shot earlier, and all the other stuff translates directly. Would have been, like Kobe, a guy who could dribble into the post as well. On defense, he was one of the great team defenders, like Bird, well ahead of his time. Would have been great in this era with his ability to hedge, read the offense, and switch onto anyone. Probably could play all five positions in today's game.
Disagree a bit on Worthy. He also would have developed the shot earlier, and i see a Marion on steroids role on offense, with the ability to give him the ball and let him attack. Quickest first step I ever saw in a guy his size, and none of the steps after was slower. And Worthy was a guy they often stuck on guards defensively, both because of his quick feet and to get him out in transition. He and Magic and Cooper and Scott would be able to cause a lot of problems in a team defensive scheme.
Kareem might have the toughest time, but as a Hibbert type anchor, he'd be fine on D, and his offense would still work because he ate doubles up, and he'd pick apart the hedges and stunts.
The thing that gets understated with that team is their IQ. just a really smart group of guys.
I could buy the argument that Magic would be better in this era. He was an excellent free throw shooter, which IMO provides insight into whether or not he could add range to his shot (which he did toward the end). And he'd be a matchup nightmare for many of the reasons that I think Randle's going to be going forward. I could definitely see him thriving offensively. Defensively, I don't think he translates as well, even as a team defender. So much of perimeter defense these days involves rotating out to shooters, which I think he'd struggle with, even with his high IQ.
I don't think Worthy would have had a huge problem offensively, and I think the "Marion on steroids" comparison is apt in that respect. I could even argue that he'd benefit from having to close out to the perimeter defensively, due to his quickness. I just think he'd struggle on the boards, and I don't think his outside jumper would have developed as effectively as Magic's did.
Kareem, I dunno. He usually liked to put it on the floor a couple of times, feel the defenders body, and "swing left, shoot right" or vice versa. I think he'd have a hard time with swarming guards in that instance. Also, aside from the rule changes, I think post defense has improved tremendously, which has led to a decrease in post effectiveness, along with the rule changes. Every time I re-watch older footage, I'm blown away by how the post defender let's the big catch the pass exactly where he wants to catch it, with no resistance. The romanticized memories of how "tough" defense was in the 80's is simply not true, especially as it pertains to post defense.
How many times does Kareem face 3/4 denial or any degree of resistance on the post catch? Almost all of it is just standing behind him and waiting for him to catch it.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Magic would have been better in this era. Would have developed the shot earlier, and all the other stuff translates directly. Would have been, like Kobe, a guy who could dribble into the post as well. On defense, he was one of the great team defenders, like Bird, well ahead of his time. Would have been great in this era with his ability to hedge, read the offense, and switch onto anyone. Probably could play all five positions in today's game.
Disagree a bit on Worthy. He also would have developed the shot earlier, and i see a Marion on steroids role on offense, with the ability to give him the ball and let him attack. Quickest first step I ever saw in a guy his size, and none of the steps after was slower. And Worthy was a guy they often stuck on guards defensively, both because of his quick feet and to get him out in transition. He and Magic and Cooper and Scott would be able to cause a lot of problems in a team defensive scheme.
Kareem might have the toughest time, but as a Hibbert type anchor, he'd be fine on D, and his offense would still work because he ate doubles up, and he'd pick apart the hedges and stunts.
The thing that gets understated with that team is their IQ. just a really smart group of guys.
I could buy the argument that Magic would be better in this era. He was an excellent free throw shooter, which IMO provides insight into whether or not he could add range to his shot (which he did toward the end). And he'd be a matchup nightmare for many of the reasons that I think Randle's going to be going forward. I could definitely see him thriving offensively. Defensively, I don't think he translates as well, even as a team defender. So much of perimeter defense these days involves rotating out to shooters, which I think he'd struggle with, even with his high IQ.
I don't think Worthy would have had a huge problem offensively, and I think the "Marion on steroids" comparison is apt in that respect. I could even argue that he'd benefit from having to close out to the perimeter defensively, due to his quickness. I just think he'd struggle on the boards, and I don't think his outside jumper would have developed as effectively as Magic's did.
Kareem, I dunno. He usually liked to put it on the floor a couple of times, feel the defenders body, and "swing left, shoot right" or vice versa. I think he'd have a hard time with swarming guards in that instance. Also, aside from the rule changes, I think post defense has improved tremendously, which has led to a decrease in post effectiveness, along with the rule changes. Every time I re-watch older footage, I'm blown away by how the post defender let's the big catch the pass exactly where he wants to catch it, with no resistance. The romanticized memories of how "tough" defense was in the 80's is simply not true, especially as it pertains to post defense.
How many times does Kareem face 3/4 denial or any degree of resistance on the post catch? Almost all of it is just standing behind him and waiting for him to catch it.
I actually think they'd play Magic at 4, where he could use his rebounding, as well as playing that free safety on the weak side of the lane. He'd also be a great pick and roll defender with his ability to play it zone up, show and recover, blitz, or even switch. he just had great great instincts, and he was very very strong for his size. Worthy would get the SF role defensively.
I actually think they'd play Magic at 4, where he could use his rebounding, as well as playing that free safety on the weak side of the lane. He'd also be a great pick and roll defender with his ability to play it zone up, show and recover, blitz, or even switch. he just had great great instincts, and he was very very strong for his size. Worthy would get the SF role defensively.
I could see that. The more you argue the point, the more I am envisioning Julius Randle as being similar to what Magic would be in today's game. Somewhere, Jim99187 just had a heart attack. I'm talking stylistically, I hope you understand.
I think today's game would push Coop into a much bigger role, and would push AC/Rambis out of the starting lineup. If Magic's playing the 4 defensively, and Worthy's on 3's, there's nowhere to put them.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject:
GoldenThroat wrote:
24 wrote:
I actually think they'd play Magic at 4, where he could use his rebounding, as well as playing that free safety on the weak side of the lane. He'd also be a great pick and roll defender with his ability to play it zone up, show and recover, blitz, or even switch. he just had great great instincts, and he was very very strong for his size. Worthy would get the SF role defensively.
I could see that. The more you argue the point, the more I am envisioning Julius Randle as being similar to what Magic would be in today's game. Somewhere, Jim99187 just had a heart attack. I'm talking stylistically, I hope you understand.
I think today's game would push Coop into a much bigger role, and would push AC/Rambis out of the starting lineup. If Magic's playing the 4 defensively, and Worthy's on 3's, there's nowhere to put them.
I see LA using Green off the bench at 4, and definitely starting Cooper. Cooper's job would be to be the second initiator/bring the ball up guy on O, and either hound the opposing ballhandler, or be an elite help/trap guy, depending upon whom they played.
You could also drop Magic into the backcourt against some lineups, and go very big.
Kareem would average 40 points per. Modern day bigs have no post moves. _________________
"Through the legs to the left, through the legs to the right, we don't run them Laker plays, we just Kobe fadeaway..."
I would love to see Wilt Chamberlain play in today's NBA. Even by today's standards and without today's physical training, Wilt would still be an athletic freak.
With today's training though? He would probably throw Demarcus Cousins around like a rag doll.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject:
Megaton wrote:
I would love to see Wilt Chamberlain play in today's NBA. Even by today's standards and without today's physical training, Wilt would still be an athletic freak.
With today's training though? He would probably throw Demarcus Cousins around like a rag doll.
Yeah, check out his physique in the conan movie, at almost 50 years old.
GT - You make some very good arguments on how and why today's rules affect the low post. But I can't help but feel the style of play is affected by the current style preference of todays players. But you may be on point when you accuse me of seeing what I want to see. Friends tell me I am stuck in the eighties.
But, if you think you are gonna convince me that kids today aren't spoiled and lack discipline, then you got another thing coming. Why in my day, if we stepped out of line, we would have to lick the roads clean with our tongues as punishment.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject:
Dylandogg wrote:
GT - You make some very good arguments on how and why today's rules affect the low post. But I can't help but feel the style of play is affected by the current style preference of todays players. But you may be on point when you accuse me of seeing what I want to see. Friends tell me I am stuck in the eighties.
But, if you think you are gonna convince me that kids today aren't spoiled and lack discipline, then you got another thing coming. Why in my day, if we stepped out of line, we would have to lick the roads clean with our tongues as punishment.
Of course, your parents generation said the same thing about yours...
I would love to see Wilt Chamberlain play in today's NBA. Even by today's standards and without today's physical training, Wilt would still be an athletic freak.
With today's training though? He would probably throw Demarcus Cousins around like a rag doll.
Yeah, check out his physique in the conan movie, at almost 50 years old.
Not only that but this shot of him even older (I think) but still sizing up Shaq and Ewing.
The only team I can see contending with those Lakers are the Spurs. Today's NBA is soft to say the least. There aren't any true centers anymore, and the league is just made up of a bunch of floppers that either want to dunk or shoot a 3. Duncan & Kobe are the last of an era of real MEN. These dudes today are sissies!
Kareem skyhook was unstoppable then... even thru the great 80s centers...
Imagine that skyhook against Deandre, D12, Gasols, Duncan, Hibbert and others... these guys would be in foul trouble and Kareem, I can't see why he wont avg 30ppg today
Kareem skyhook was unstoppable then... even thru the great 80s centers...
Imagine that skyhook against Deandre, D12, Gasols, Duncan, Hibbert and others... these guys would be in foul trouble and Kareem, I can't see why he wont avg 30ppg today
Agreed, 30/12 are the numbers I had him avg. He was just too good.
Kareem would average 40 points per. Modern day bigs have no post moves.
Pau Gasol has no post moves? How about Tim Duncan?
They're not the definition of modern day bigs. I'm talking about guys 32 and younger. I can say the only guy in that bracket who has moves is Marc Gasol, but still not a many as Pau. _________________
"Through the legs to the left, through the legs to the right, we don't run them Laker plays, we just Kobe fadeaway..."
Kareem would average 40 points per. Modern day bigs have no post moves.
Pau Gasol has no post moves? How about Tim Duncan?
They're not the definition of modern day bigs. I'm talking about guys 32 and younger.
Then I am completely confused by your point. Bigs that are 32 and under have no post moves in today's game, therefore a 35+ year old Kareem would average 40ppg if he played today?
Pau is 34, and never averaged more then 20.8ppg. So the "modern era" started less than 2 years ago?
And Tim Duncan's (aka The Big Fundamental) only averaged 25ppg once in his career, and only over 20ppg (barely) twice since zone principles started to be incorporated in earnest in the mid-2000's. Hasn't scored 20ppg in 9 years. And he possesses some of the best post moves ever.
Neither Patrick Ewing nor Hakeem Olajuwon never averaged more than 17.7ppg in college. Then they get to the NBA, and they're immediately 20ppg+ players, in their rookie seasons? You don't think that has anything to do with the rules about zones being different? Or do you think people normally put up better numbers when the competition improves?
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:05 am Post subject:
The disconnect here is just the complete lack of understanding of the new defensive rules and why they have rendered the NBA game similar to all other levels that have zone rules. The post up is simply one of the easiest offensive sets to defend when you can hedge players.
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 4077 Location: New York, NY
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject:
I'm not putting Kareem down for 30, but if Dwight "Dunk" Howard can average 22.9 against zones, I don't think it's outlandish to think the Captain could go for 23-25, even at 35-39, as he was from 1982-1986 seasons. Whatever athletic advantage Dwight had that gives him an edge over KAJ against zones and modern defenses is more than made up for by Kareem's advantage with the hook.
But yes, rule changes make era comparisons next to impossible. And it's not just about putting teams from the past into the future and saying they could/could not fare the same. Put this year's Warriors in the 1979 NBA. How are they doing without a three-point line?
I'm not putting Kareem down for 30, but if Dwight "Dunk" Howard can average 22.9 against zones, I don't think it's outlandish to think the Captain could go for 23-25, even at 35-39, as he was from 1982-1986 seasons. Whatever athletic advantage Dwight had that gives him an edge over KAJ against zones and modern defenses is more than made up for by Kareem's advantage with the hook.
But yes, rule changes make era comparisons next to impossible. And it's not just about putting teams from the past into the future and saying they could/could not fare the same. Put this year's Warriors in the 1979 NBA. How are they doing without a three-point line?
Dwight wasn't getting most of his points out of the post though. He was getting the majority of them on pick & rolls, rim runs, and offensive rebounding, all areas where he was elite, and 35+ Kareem was not. I think we can all agree that Dwight's not nearly as skilled as Pau was/is, and he still averaged more PPG than Pau ever did, and more than Duncan's scored since the rule changes. Howard's 22.8ppg demonstrates how bigs effectively score in this era.
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