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g3rb3r
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 Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject: Hack-A-______ Question |
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So this is something I have always wondered about this strategy. Why don't the players with the poor free-throw percentage stand out of bounds. I may be mixing up some of my thoughts, but I was under the impression that fouling a player out of bounds brought more consequences, so couldn't this whole hack-a-____ strategy be avoided by teams instructing their bad free-throw shooters to simply stay out of bounds?
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Telleris
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-A-______ Question |
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| g3rb3r wrote: | | So this is something I have always wondered about this strategy. Why don't the players with the poor free-throw percentage stand out of bounds. I may be mixing up some of my thoughts, but I was under the impression that fouling a player out of bounds brought more consequences, so couldn't this whole hack-a-____ strategy be avoided by teams instructing their bad free-throw shooters to simply stay out of bounds? |
It's a violation to stand out of bounds, the rule was brought in to fix those dodgy bench camo plays, but affects this too
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nevitt_smrek
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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The league could change the rules a bit, one that disallows intentionally fouling off-the-ball if the "foulee" is in the backcourt. Maybe below his own FT line. If he wants to stand back there to avoid getting fouled, then his team can play 4 on 5 on offense.
My opinion is that these are professional players. It's pathetic that they can't make FT's. Don't want Popovich to foul you? Learn how to shoot.
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fansincemagic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | The league could change the rules a bit, one that disallows intentionally fouling off-the-ball if the "foulee" is in the backcourt. Maybe below his own FT line. If he wants to stand back there to avoid getting fouled, then his team can play 4 on 5 on offense.
My opinion is that these are professional players. It's pathetic that they can't make FT's. Don't want Popovich to foul you? Learn how to shoot. |
That's actually a good idea. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:43 am Post subject: |
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I don't mind watching guys like DJ shoot free throws in situations like this. He shoots them in a bunch of other situations when defenders hammer him to send him to the line.
I thought it backfired on the Spurs even though Jordan was usually missing. The Clippers were rebounding his misses, and his misses were so bad they seemed to increase the chances that the Clippers would get a rebound. The Spurs were prevented from getting fastbreak points and the Clippers got to set their defense. The Clippers starters rested more. And occasionally Jordan would make one. |
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Hawkins
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | | My opinion is that these are professional players. It's pathetic that they can't make FT's. Don't want Popovich to foul you? Learn how to shoot. |
Correct...how can any elite professional basketball player not make at least 60% - 70% all time. What's the first shot any player makes starting out is a free throw. I just don't get it. |
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mhan00
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Honestly, I'd just change the rules to give the offensive team the option to waive fts if they want and just keep possession. If they're worried how it might affect end game situations, then make fts non optional the last two minutes of the game when hack a Shaq isn't allowed anymore. I HATE watching fts, it isn't basketball. I'd like this, and Jeff Van Gundy's suggestion that they reduce fts to one single shot. So if you get fouled you take one for worth two points, if you get fouled shooting a three, you shoot one ft worth three points. |
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mhan00
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Nobody watches basketball to watch fts, and they extend the game to a mind numbing degree when crap like hack a Shaq is employed. |
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USCandLakers
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:23 am Post subject: |
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I don't think it needs to be changed. MFs just need to make their free throws.
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Telleris
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | Honestly, I'd just change the rules to give the offensive team the option to waive fts if they want and just keep possession. If they're worried how it might affect end game situations, then make fts non optional the last two minutes of the game when hack a Shaq isn't allowed anymore. I HATE watching fts, it isn't basketball. I'd like this, and Jeff Van Gundy's suggestion that they reduce fts to one single shot. So if you get fouled you take one for worth two points, if you get fouled shooting a three, you shoot one ft worth three points. |
the hack is off ball, they already have a last 2 minutes for that, you'd just make it for off ball fouls, the guy with the ball is who gets fouled in the last 2 minutes
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golaker
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | I don't think it needs to be changed. MFs just need to make their free throws. |
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cathy78
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| From basketball point there are no changes needed. But from a spectator point they need to change that. It just takes away so much viewing experience and takes out the whole flow of the game. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Eh, this doesn't merit a rule change. If it started happening in every game, I'd feel differently. But it doesn't happen often enough for it to be worth messing with the rules. |
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vedanta
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Hawkins wrote: | | nevitt_smrek wrote: | | My opinion is that these are professional players. It's pathetic that they can't make FT's. Don't want Popovich to foul you? Learn how to shoot. |
Correct...how can any elite professional basketball player not make at least 60% - 70% all time. What's the first shot any player makes starting out is a free throw. I just don't get it. |
I think the particular characteristics of basketball favour this kind of things.
If you play tennis, being an athletic freak or a physical specimen will not take you to a Grand Slam tournament if you don´t master this sport. If you play football (soccer), being 7 foot tall won´t make it done. If you play...etc.
But in basketball your target is 10 feet high, so being extremely tall and able to jump really high can take you to a pro court, even if you lack the basic talents, and at the same time you can have a great overall skillset and get nowhere.
So how can Deandre Jordan be a very well paid pro and not be able to learn something that most kids do? Well, he´s not talented at all. But he can put his head above those 10 feet. And that, coupled with a pair of virtues more, may take you higher in this sport than a 90FT% or having incredible handles or moves, if you don´t have a particular physique.
In this sense, basketball can be very frustrating. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Eh, this doesn't merit a rule change. If it started happening in every game, I'd feel differently. But it doesn't happen often enough for it to be worth messing with the rules. |
It's happened in something like 2/3 of these playoff games so far, the Celtics were hacking a 65% free throw shooter to create 2 for 1's lol.
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mhan00
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | mhan00 wrote: | | Honestly, I'd just change the rules to give the offensive team the option to waive fts if they want and just keep possession. If they're worried how it might affect end game situations, then make fts non optional the last two minutes of the game when hack a Shaq isn't allowed anymore. I HATE watching fts, it isn't basketball. I'd like this, and Jeff Van Gundy's suggestion that they reduce fts to one single shot. So if you get fouled you take one for worth two points, if you get fouled shooting a three, you shoot one ft worth three points. |
the hack is off ball, they already have a last 2 minutes for that, you'd just make it for off ball fouls, the guy with the ball is who gets fouled in the last 2 minutes |
I know the hack is off ball. My suggestion is that the offensive team can choose to waive fts whenever they want and opt to keep possession instead. I explained it pretty clearly I think. |
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Telleris
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | Telleris wrote: | | mhan00 wrote: | | Honestly, I'd just change the rules to give the offensive team the option to waive fts if they want and just keep possession. If they're worried how it might affect end game situations, then make fts non optional the last two minutes of the game when hack a Shaq isn't allowed anymore. I HATE watching fts, it isn't basketball. I'd like this, and Jeff Van Gundy's suggestion that they reduce fts to one single shot. So if you get fouled you take one for worth two points, if you get fouled shooting a three, you shoot one ft worth three points. |
the hack is off ball, they already have a last 2 minutes for that, you'd just make it for off ball fouls, the guy with the ball is who gets fouled in the last 2 minutes |
I know the hack is off ball. My suggestion is that the offensive team can choose to waive fts whenever they want and opt to keep possession instead. I explained it pretty clearly I think. |
I guess i didn't explain it properly, all i was saying was that it wouldn't affect end game situations because hacking already doesn't occur at endgame due to the 1 + the ball rule.
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dabask11
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| At first I was against it but given how the new rules have favored guards in multiple ways, it's about time big men have something similar happen to them. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| cathy78 wrote: | | From basketball point there are no changes needed. But from a spectator point they need to change that. It just takes away so much viewing experience and takes out the whole flow of the game. |
I don't see how it makes the sport harder to watch. I saw the Celtics do this to DeAndre Jordan in Boston and the fans in Boston were noisy and clearly entertained by watching him struggle at the free throw line. They weren't booing their own team for fouling him off the ball. Boston was behind in the game and they thought the Celtics might come back. A lot of the complaining I see comes from fans of the team the strategy is used against.
Most of the free throws Jordan shoots are not a result of off the ball fouls. If it hurts the viewing experience so much, then why not change the rules enough so we never see him shoot another free throw again? |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | Nobody watches basketball to watch fts, and they extend the game to a mind numbing degree when crap like hack a Shaq is employed. |
It's not like Jordan is shooting free throws the entire game. What's the highest number of free throws in a row that Jordan has shot in 3 games? 8 or 10? An entire NBA game is much longer than that.
Every game has free throws. I actually find it more interesting to watch the bad shooters shoot them because I have no idea what is going to happen. Watching the best free throw shooters is kind of like watching the extra point in football. The points are almost automatic and it's less interesting to me. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Duncan and Griffith off the top of my head are two players who got better with their FT%. There probably are a lot more.
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Telleris
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | cathy78 wrote: | | From basketball point there are no changes needed. But from a spectator point they need to change that. It just takes away so much viewing experience and takes out the whole flow of the game. |
I don't see how it makes the sport harder to watch. I saw the Celtics do this to DeAndre Jordan in Boston and the fans in Boston were noisy and clearly entertained by watching him struggle at the free throw line. They weren't booing their own team for fouling him off the ball. Boston was behind in the game and they thought the Celtics might come back. A lot of the complaining I see comes from fans of the team the strategy is used against.
Most of the free throws Jordan shoots are not a result of off the ball fouls. If it hurts the viewing experience so much, then why not change the rules enough so we never see him shoot another free throw again? |
The journey matters more than the destination. Getting fouled as he's trying to score isn't the same as some guy running up and grabbing him in the back court just because they both end in free throws.
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Steve007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Telleris wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | cathy78 wrote: | | From basketball point there are no changes needed. But from a spectator point they need to change that. It just takes away so much viewing experience and takes out the whole flow of the game. |
I don't see how it makes the sport harder to watch. I saw the Celtics do this to DeAndre Jordan in Boston and the fans in Boston were noisy and clearly entertained by watching him struggle at the free throw line. They weren't booing their own team for fouling him off the ball. Boston was behind in the game and they thought the Celtics might come back. A lot of the complaining I see comes from fans of the team the strategy is used against.
Most of the free throws Jordan shoots are not a result of off the ball fouls. If it hurts the viewing experience so much, then why not change the rules enough so we never see him shoot another free throw again? |
The journey matters more than the destination. Getting fouled as he's trying to score isn't the same as some guy running up and grabbing him in the back court just because they both end in free throws. |
But it seems like every argument I hear about this topic is a complaint about the free throws.
I really don't see much of a difference. Okay, you might see DJ shoot something like 6 or 8 free throws instead of 2. But the situation isn't even that bad because sometimes he will get benched by his own coach for missing free throws. And even 8 free throws isn't that many. It's not like the game stops and we have to watch him shoot 40 free throws.
Teams actually get rewarded more when they foul him in the act of shooting than when they foul him off the ball. Even as bad as DJ is, I'm not convinced the strategy is one the Spurs should use. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:03 am Post subject: |
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A Spurs fan on another forum raised some issues with hacking DJ after game 2. I'll just quote that person here.
| Quote: | We saw tonight that Jordan continues to miss the majority of his free throws. His percentages are as bad as ever.
Yet, it seems pretty clear that Hack-a-Jordan has not led to immediate gains for the spurs on the offensive end, despite the extra possessions it is designed to provide the spurs. The Clippers actually collect the rebound 20% of the time off Jordan's misses, which negates the entire purpose of the hack strategy in those situations. Is 20% too much? 1 out of every 5 hack situations ends up with the Clippers reclaiming possession.
Can an NBA reporter please ask Pop why he does the HackaDJ when DJ shoots 42% and Clips OREB 19% of 2nd miss+ ev of ensuing possession
— Haralabos Voulgaris (@haralabob) April 23, 2015
The Clippers tended to play more spirited defense on the other end to make up for the embarrassment of the hack strategy. The spurs also failed to score on any of the DJ hack possessions. Were the spurs just missing shots or did the Clippers efforts to shut them down mostly bear fruit? Is this an anomaly, or would it be the norm?
Spurs scored exactly 0 points after DJ free throw attempts. That plus fouling in first 5 secs is great way to blow a lead
— Haralabos Voulgaris (@haralabob) April 23, 2015
Obviously, the strategy has its pros and cons. The spurs get to rest players on the court while DJ takes free throws (Clippers too, though). They take the Clippers out of rhythm offensively (Spurs too, though). But is it this the right strategy when it comes to Clippers? While I enjoy seeing the Clippers frustrated by the Hack strategy as much as anyone, I'm not sold on the effectiveness of the hack. In just watching the game, the hack seemed to result in the Clippers pulling even.
All in all, I think Pop was a bit reckless in the way he employed the hack strategy in game 2. If it should be used at all, in what context? leading? behind? used to stop the clips' offensive momentum? After how many made free throws should it end?
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247020 |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Duncan and Griffith off the top of my head are two players who got better with their FT%. There probably are a lot more. |
Malone back in the day. |
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