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ringfinger
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Fan0Bynum17
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| It is discrimination to allow men to be topless in public but not women. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: |
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I don't have a problem with the idea of making it a topless beach. I just think the discrimination argument is the wrong way to go.
From a cultural perspective, I don't really see prohibiting women from being topless in public, any more discriminatory than allowing women's only health clubs or allowing a woman to select a female physician if that is who they are more comfortable with. |
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | I don't have a problem with the idea of making it a topless beach. I just think the discrimination argument is the wrong way to go.
From a cultural perspective, I don't really see prohibiting women from being topless in public, any more discriminatory than allowing women's only health clubs or allowing a woman to select a female physician if that is who they are more comfortable with. |
How is it the wrong way to go? That's exactly what's wrong with not allowing a topless beach, or just changing the public nudity laws in general.
What are you talking about? There's no comparison between those things at all. Public nudity laws are laws, so it's legal discrimination, that's fundamentally different than a private club only allowing women members, and that's irrelevant anyway because men's clubs are allowed too. Also, men are allowed to select a male physician too. And really, gender selection in doctors isn't really a hard legal issue, to my knowledge. It's more a matter of policy of particular insurance companies/hospitals/doctor's offices. |
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Fallout
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: |
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It always struck me as crazy. Showing the human body is taboo but the violence you see on TV and video games is ok. Which is going to hurt children more? Seeing the human body or getting desensitized by all the violence they see and experience in media?
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | I don't have a problem with the idea of making it a topless beach. I just think the discrimination argument is the wrong way to go.
From a cultural perspective, I don't really see prohibiting women from being topless in public, any more discriminatory than allowing women's only health clubs or allowing a woman to select a female physician if that is who they are more comfortable with. |
How is it the wrong way to go? That's exactly what's wrong with not allowing a topless beach, or just changing the public nudity laws in general. |
I guess my point is that if they want to pursue this, I think that's fine, they should just say, I want a topless beach so I can walk around and let it all hang out freely. Argue for choice.
But don't use the discrimination angle. It's the wrong argument. Not all discrimination is wrong or bad. Some of it, in fact, is good.
| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | What are you talking about? There's no comparison between those things at all. Public nudity laws are laws, so it's legal discrimination, that's fundamentally different than a private club only allowing women members, and that's irrelevant anyway because men's clubs are allowed too. Also, men are allowed to select a male physician too. And really, gender selection in doctors isn't really a hard legal issue, to my knowledge. It's more a matter of policy of particular insurance companies/hospitals/doctor's offices. |
There are plenty of comparisons. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.
If discrimination is wrong, then, the law should not allow for men-only or women-only anything whether it is health clubs or other wise, right?
So what if men are allowed to pick a physician based on gender -- that is still discrimination on the basis of gender. If discrimination is wrong, then it should not be allowed.
But sometimes, discrimination is acceptable (i.e. picking a doctor or providing a safe haven for women to work out) and that's why it is the wrong angle for them to position their argument.
The more sensible argument would be to say they want the choice to be topless or not. Huge difference. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Fallout wrote: | | It always struck me as crazy. Showing the human body is taboo but the violence you see on TV and video games is ok. Which is going to hurt children more? Seeing the human body or getting desensitized by all the violence they see and experience in media? |
I agree with you in theory, but, you wouldn't feel uncomfortable seeing your 16 year old daughter walking around your house without a shirt on?
I would. Does that make me crazy? I dunno. Maybe. Haha. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas.
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Last edited by jodeke on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: |
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I can't say I've ever really understood the American fear of the female nipple? It's always been rather baffling. Are folks afraid of being blinded by a spontaneous squirting from 20 paces? 
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | I can't say I've ever really understood the American fear of the female nipple? It's always been rather baffling. Are folks afraid of being blinded by a spontaneous squirting from 20 paces? |
It's not limited to America. It's pretty common across cultures to varying degrees.
In most cultures, it is not appropriate for a 14 year old girl to walk around without a top on. That isn't fear. It's just cultural preferences. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
Exactly. There are already plenty of women in Venice who feel compelled to take their bottoms off every time they see a picture of Andrew Jackson printed on green paper. 
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
So you're disregarding the concerns of the people that live in the area? People with experience relating to the asking? | Quote: | Venice's earlier flirtation with laissez-faire sunbathing ended soon after the non-nudist public took notice. News crews swarmed. Helicopters hovered. Lifeguards found themselves rescuing people with nothing material to grasp. Lascivious men in leisure suits showed up carrying cameras with telephoto lenses.
"It became a freak show," Jeffrey Stanton wrote in his book, "Venice California: Coney Island of the Pacific." |
This is inevitable. Coming from those who's lives will be affected.
As I said I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is a good place for it. Google Black Beach, La Jolla Ca.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
So you're disregarding the concerns of the people that live in the area? People with experience relating to the asking? | Quote: | Venice's earlier flirtation with laissez-faire sunbathing ended soon after the non-nudist public took notice. News crews swarmed. Helicopters hovered. Lifeguards found themselves rescuing people with nothing material to grasp. Lascivious men in leisure suits showed up carrying cameras with telephoto lenses.
"It became a freak show," Jeffrey Stanton wrote in his book, "Venice California: Coney Island of the Pacific." |
This is inevitable. Coming from those who's lives will be affected.
As I said I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is a good place for it. Google Black Beach, La Jolla Ca. |
Well aware of Black's. And none of the activity described occurs there or at any of the other so cal nudes beaches.
Sure, when first implemented there would probably be some attention. But it wouldn't be crazy for long.
And that comment about lifeguard's having nothing to grab is about the stupidest thing I have heard. No lifeguard rescues anyone by grabbing their bikini top. So I would take that guys comment with a barrel of salt. Not to mention it was 40 plus years ago. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
So you're disregarding the concerns of the people that live in the area? People with experience relating to the asking? | Quote: | Venice's earlier flirtation with laissez-faire sunbathing ended soon after the non-nudist public took notice. News crews swarmed. Helicopters hovered. Lifeguards found themselves rescuing people with nothing material to grasp. Lascivious men in leisure suits showed up carrying cameras with telephoto lenses.
"It became a freak show," Jeffrey Stanton wrote in his book, "Venice California: Coney Island of the Pacific." |
This is inevitable. Coming from those who's lives will be affected.
As I said I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is a good place for it. Google Black Beach, La Jolla Ca. |
Well aware of Black's. And none of the activity described occurs there or at any of the other so cal nudes beaches.
Sure, when first implemented there would probably be some attention. But it wouldn't be crazy for long.
And that comment about lifeguard's having nothing to grab is about the stupidest thing I have heard. No lifeguard rescues anyone by grabbing their bikini top. So I would take that guys comment with a barrel of salt. Not to mention it was 40 plus years ago. |
Where are the other so ca nude beaches located? Are they as easily accessible as Venice or are the secluded? If you have locations post them so I can google earth them.
You're saying it wouldn't be crazy for long I disagree. Venice is already seeping with depravity, nudity would only heap on.
Again, I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is the right location,
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
So you're disregarding the concerns of the people that live in the area? People with experience relating to the asking? | Quote: | Venice's earlier flirtation with laissez-faire sunbathing ended soon after the non-nudist public took notice. News crews swarmed. Helicopters hovered. Lifeguards found themselves rescuing people with nothing material to grasp. Lascivious men in leisure suits showed up carrying cameras with telephoto lenses.
"It became a freak show," Jeffrey Stanton wrote in his book, "Venice California: Coney Island of the Pacific." |
This is inevitable. Coming from those who's lives will be affected.
As I said I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is a good place for it. Google Black Beach, La Jolla Ca. |
Well aware of Black's. And none of the activity described occurs there or at any of the other so cal nudes beaches.
Sure, when first implemented there would probably be some attention. But it wouldn't be crazy for long.
And that comment about lifeguard's having nothing to grab is about the stupidest thing I have heard. No lifeguard rescues anyone by grabbing their bikini top. So I would take that guys comment with a barrel of salt. Not to mention it was 40 plus years ago. |
Where are the other so ca nude beaches located? Are they as easily accessible as Venice or are the secluded? If you have locations post them so I can google earth them.
You're saying it wouldn't be crazy for long I disagree. Venice is already seeping with depravity, nudity would only heap on.
Again, I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is the right location, |
There are a couple up around Santa Barbara and it frequently occurs around the county line beaches. They aren't as "exposed" as Venice. But if people were as crazed to see some breasts as you claim, people wouldn't be letting a nothing thing like a walk down a bluff stop them. And yet none of what you describe happens. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | I'm in favor or topless and nude beaches. However, I think they should be more secluded than the Venice area affords.
Can you imagine driving down PCH past a nude area. Accidents and traffic congestion would increase 1,000 percent.
Venice Beach used to be a very nice place to go, day or night. It's changed immeasurably over the years.
I understand the concerns of the residents of the area. Topless bathing would certainly turn the beach into an attraction that would do those who live there no good.
As I prefaced, I'm in favor topless and nude bathing but I think it should be in secluded areas. |
Venice is not going to get any more crowded or crazy than it is now because some women take their tops off. |
So you're disregarding the concerns of the people that live in the area? People with experience relating to the asking? | Quote: | Venice's earlier flirtation with laissez-faire sunbathing ended soon after the non-nudist public took notice. News crews swarmed. Helicopters hovered. Lifeguards found themselves rescuing people with nothing material to grasp. Lascivious men in leisure suits showed up carrying cameras with telephoto lenses.
"It became a freak show," Jeffrey Stanton wrote in his book, "Venice California: Coney Island of the Pacific." |
This is inevitable. Coming from those who's lives will be affected.
As I said I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is a good place for it. Google Black Beach, La Jolla Ca. |
Well aware of Black's. And none of the activity described occurs there or at any of the other so cal nudes beaches.
Sure, when first implemented there would probably be some attention. But it wouldn't be crazy for long.
And that comment about lifeguard's having nothing to grab is about the stupidest thing I have heard. No lifeguard rescues anyone by grabbing their bikini top. So I would take that guys comment with a barrel of salt. Not to mention it was 40 plus years ago. |
Where are the other so ca nude beaches located? Are they as easily accessible as Venice or are the secluded? If you have locations post them so I can google earth them.
You're saying it wouldn't be crazy for long I disagree. Venice is already seeping with depravity, nudity would only heap on.
Again, I'm not against nudity, I just don't think Venice is the right location, |
There are a couple up around Santa Barbara and it frequently occurs around the county line beaches. They aren't as "exposed" as Venice. But if people were as crazed to see some breasts as you claim, people wouldn't be letting a nothing thing like a walk down a bluff stop them. And yet none of what you describe happens. |
I'm not claiming anything, I posted the concerns of Venice residents who I have empathy with.
You make my point, they aren't as exposed as Venice. It's accessability makes it the wrong location. That's my objection, location, location, location.
If I were a wagering man, I'd wager there are people who walk down bluffs to take pictures. I've seen pictures of nude beaches I don't believe most were taken and posted by the people photographed.
What I described has not been tested. There are no nude beaches in view of PCH?
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | I don't have a problem with the idea of making it a topless beach. I just think the discrimination argument is the wrong way to go.
From a cultural perspective, I don't really see prohibiting women from being topless in public, any more discriminatory than allowing women's only health clubs or allowing a woman to select a female physician if that is who they are more comfortable with. |
How is it the wrong way to go? That's exactly what's wrong with not allowing a topless beach, or just changing the public nudity laws in general. |
I guess my point is that if they want to pursue this, I think that's fine, they should just say, I want a topless beach so I can walk around and let it all hang out freely. Argue for choice.
But don't use the discrimination angle. It's the wrong argument. Not all discrimination is wrong or bad. Some of it, in fact, is good.
| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | What are you talking about? There's no comparison between those things at all. Public nudity laws are laws, so it's legal discrimination, that's fundamentally different than a private club only allowing women members, and that's irrelevant anyway because men's clubs are allowed too. Also, men are allowed to select a male physician too. And really, gender selection in doctors isn't really a hard legal issue, to my knowledge. It's more a matter of policy of particular insurance companies/hospitals/doctor's offices. |
There are plenty of comparisons. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.
If discrimination is wrong, then, the law should not allow for men-only or women-only anything whether it is health clubs or other wise, right?
So what if men are allowed to pick a physician based on gender -- that is still discrimination on the basis of gender. If discrimination is wrong, then it should not be allowed.
But sometimes, discrimination is acceptable (i.e. picking a doctor or providing a safe haven for women to work out) and that's why it is the wrong angle for them to position their argument.
The more sensible argument would be to say they want the choice to be topless or not. Huge difference. |
No, I'm not saying private entities should not be allowed to discriminate, that's another issue altogether. I'm saying the law shouldn't discriminate based on sex/gender, unless it's specifically relevant to the different anatomical functions between the sexes.
Yeah, they want the choice like men have the choice, i.e. equality, not discriminating in the law. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | No, I'm not saying private entities should not be allowed to discriminate, that's another issue altogether. I'm saying the law shouldn't discriminate based on sex/gender, unless it's specifically relevant to the different anatomical functions between the sexes.
Yeah, they want the choice like men have the choice, i.e. equality, not discriminating in the law. |
What the? Ok, do me a favor and re-read what you wrote.
The law allows health clubs to deny service based solely on gender. (This has been challenged and upheld). The law also allows beaches to deny the removal of outerwear based solely on gender.
I do wish it were as easy as saying "different issue" but it isn't. (I wish I could do that with my bills quite frankly, then I'd never have to pay them!)
The law has to discriminate based on gender at times. For instance, what about law's that prohibit men from entering women's restrooms? There is no anatomical need for a separate restroom. The bathrooms are really the same. There are legally recognized safe havens for abused women to go to. How irate are you that the law does not allow you, a men with comparable faculties, to enter these safe havens?
Bottom line -- if women want to go to Venice Beach topless, just say that that's what you want. Don't play the discrimination card. It's the wrong way to go about it. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of equality and discrimination.
Why do shows like Banshee and Boardwalk Empire flash women pubic areas and not men?
I'm of a mind women like flash too. 
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | Speaking of equality and discrimination.
Why do shows like Banshee and Boardwalk Empire flash women pubic areas are shown and not men?
I'm of a mind women like flash too. |
Whatever you say bud. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Speaking of equality and discrimination.
Why do shows like Banshee and Boardwalk Empire flash women pubic areas are shown and not men?
I'm of a mind women like flash too. |
Whatever you say bud. |
Kinda hard to decipher, the way I butcher the English language. I did a edit. JMHO 
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | Speaking of equality and discrimination.
Why do shows like Banshee and Boardwalk Empire flash women pubic areas and not men?
I'm of a mind women like flash too. |
Now that is a serious discrimination issue!  |
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C M B
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 19865
Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| LATIMES wrote: | | Venice Beach was founded and designed around the European culture of Venice, Italy," |
Venice Beach is the perfect opposite of Venice, Italy. Maybe Venice, Italy will look like Venice Beach in a few generations after enough boatloads of "migrants" have been allowed to "enrich" it.
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| Sister Golden Hair wrote: | LAMAR ODOM is an anagram for ... DOOM ALARM
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Dominator
Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 8679
Location: Irvine
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | Speaking of equality and discrimination.
Why do shows like Banshee and Boardwalk Empire flash women pubic areas and not men?
I'm of a mind women like flash too. |
Watch Game of Thrones if you're looking for some dong, Jodeke. |
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