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angrypuppy
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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It is still very advantageous to playing in LA. For example Shaq took slightly less money for a reason:
1. Excellent young Lakers team
2. Front office headed by Jerry West & Jerry Buss
3. Entertainment moguls sitting court side who could further your career
4. Bright lights, big urban city
5. Weather
Jerry West and Jerry Buss are no longer with the franchise, but with skill and a fortuitous ping pong ball bounce we might have very good young talent. The franchise might be on the upswing if the front office doesn't panic and sign marginal talent this summer. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | It is still very advantageous to playing in LA. For example Shaq took slightly less money for a reason:
1. Excellent young Lakers team
2. Front office headed by Jerry West & Jerry Buss
3. Entertainment moguls sitting court side who could further your career
4. Bright lights, big urban city
5. Weather
Jerry West and Jerry Buss are no longer with the franchise, but with skill and a fortuitous ping pong ball bounce we might have very good young talent. The franchise might be on the upswing if the front office doesn't panic and sign marginal talent this summer. |
6. Hollywood ambitions (I guess that's your #3)
That's one of the reason Fox took less to come as well. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | It is still very advantageous to playing in LA. For example Shaq took slightly less money for a reason:
1. Excellent young Lakers team
2. Front office headed by Jerry West & Jerry Buss
3. Entertainment moguls sitting court side who could further your career
4. Bright lights, big urban city
5. Weather
Jerry West and Jerry Buss are no longer with the franchise, but with skill and a fortuitous ping pong ball bounce we might have very good young talent. The franchise might be on the upswing if the front office doesn't panic and sign marginal talent this summer. |
I assume by marginal you don't mean solid value role players, but overpaying Rondo type guys?
BTW, a big reason Shaq came was the idea of being a big fish in a big pond. He was apparently impressed by seeing stars eating in restaurants and everyone acting like it was no big deal. He could be a star and have all that goes with it, except without the mob every time he set foot outside his house. Orlando was like being a big fish in a tiny, transparent bowl. |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Shaq really thought it would boost his movie and rap career, and that perception drove him out of Orlando. Of course he needed talent to succeed, but LA did give him that opportunity. Unfortunately for him, that illusion went Kazam.
And yes, I fear an acquisition of Rondo or some other short-term fix. I never had a problem with keeping the powder dry for a major, meaningful acquisition. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | Shaq really thought it would boost his movie and rap career, and that perception drove him out of Orlando. Of course he needed talent to succeed, but LA did give him that opportunity. Unfortunately for him, that illusion went Kazam.
And yes, I fear an acquisition of Rondo or some other short-term fix. I never had a problem with keeping the powder dry for a major, meaningful acquisition. |
Be warned now. Someone will immediately bring up how Blue Chips came out before he was in LA!
Last edited by greenfrog on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | The new CBA and the swell of salaries to middle tier guy has made it really tough imo.
Cedric Ceballos signed with us in 1994-1995. He made $2m/year that year and the salary cap was $15m. Though he had shortcomings, he was very much a 3rd/4th best type of player. 13% of the salary cap was used on a player of that caliber. Let's juxtapose it to this era. I get that we have to pay out to get these guys, but we're looking at Middleton for a full max or around $15m a year of $65 or 23% of the salary cap. It's crazy but it is what it is.
The thing about the team in the early 90s, we never really "bottomed" out. When Magic retired, we still had young, key pieces to the rebuild. Vlade was 22-23. Elden was the same age. We had 2 starting caliber pieces already in place. We got Nick who was a gem in the second round (Clarkson?) in 1992-93 IIRC. The 1994-1995 season, we drafted Eddie and got Cedric. Bam, starting 5 that went on to upset Seattle.
The problem with what we have now, is we never kept our first rounders (understandably) so there are no Elden/Vlade pieces. That's 2 years in the rebuild they saved. |
Not to split hairs, but we actually traded our 1995 1st Rounder for Ceballos, rather than signing him via Free Agency. (side note: that pick later became Michael Finley, who was a darn good player in his own right)
The only reason I bring it up is to demonstrate that West was willing to move a late round pick for a guy who could help now, and Ceballos' acquisition helped us become a good team, which in turn made us an attractive destination for a guy like Shaq.
West also gave himself A LOT of chances at young talent. We remember Van Exel & Eddie, but we also traded Sam Perkins for Doug Christie, drafted George Lynch, Anthony Peeler, Duane Cooper, gave Antonio Harvey & Pig Miller a shot, traded for Mario Bennett (IIRC). West knew that you're not gonna hit with every move that you make when it comes to young players, so you gotta give yourself enough chances.
24 outlined some of the differences between then and now, but by and large I do think that's the blueprint. And with Randle & Clarkson, so far so good. |
Ah yeah, you are correct.
In any event, I think the biggest takeaway is that we can't squander draft picks regardless of how low they are even during our contending years. Even if 1 out of 3 pan out, we're filling up the cupboards.
Elden - 27th pick
Vlade - 26th pick
Nick - 37th pick
The Spurs continue to reload in the same manner.
I think a part of the reason they were so reckless with draft picks is because for the first half of the 2000's, our picks were absolute rubbish. Whether it was the need to find "triangle" guys or whatever (I have no idea), perhaps the FO felt that you'd only get junk with those low draft picks. I hope the lesson is learned even during the bull years in the future. I'm in agreement that trading a pick is certainly not out of the equation but it has to be for the "right" guy that they're looking for to be here as a foundation. Pick for cash? No more of that non-sense.
Last edited by jonnybravo on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | It is still very advantageous to playing in LA. For example Shaq took slightly less money for a reason:
1. Excellent young Lakers team
2. Front office headed by Jerry West & Jerry Buss
3. Entertainment moguls sitting court side who could further your career
4. Bright lights, big urban city
5. Weather
Jerry West and Jerry Buss are no longer with the franchise, but with skill and a fortuitous ping pong ball bounce we might have very good young talent. The franchise might be on the upswing if the front office doesn't panic and sign marginal talent this summer. |
I believe the Lakers offered the most money. They gave him $120 million for 7 years while Orlando reportedly offered $110-115 million |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Great posts by all. I do think we can learn from the franchise's recent history as Mitch also learned a lot from West. By going back and looking at the rosters/results you see just how intricate it is to go from one Final-drought-Final. A few wrong moves here and there and we don't get back to the Finals.
The reason I used the Finals-back to Finals paradigm is that it's much easier than defining when a true "rebuild" happened. After we lost to the Bulls we retained some of the core vets for a few seasons though they declined. Seems fair to compare those periods IMO.
Great insight from some of the older Lakers fans.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | The new CBA and the swell of salaries to middle tier guy has made it really tough imo.
Cedric Ceballos signed with us in 1994-1995. He made $2m/year that year and the salary cap was $15m. Though he had shortcomings, he was very much a 3rd/4th best type of player. 13% of the salary cap was used on a player of that caliber. Let's juxtapose it to this era. I get that we have to pay out to get these guys, but we're looking at Middleton for a full max or around $15m a year of $65 or 23% of the salary cap. It's crazy but it is what it is.
The thing about the team in the early 90s, we never really "bottomed" out. When Magic retired, we still had young, key pieces to the rebuild. Vlade was 22-23. Elden was the same age. We had 2 starting caliber pieces already in place. We got Nick who was a gem in the second round (Clarkson?) in 1992-93 IIRC. The 1994-1995 season, we drafted Eddie and got Cedric. Bam, starting 5 that went on to upset Seattle.
The problem with what we have now, is we never kept our first rounders (understandably) so there are no Elden/Vlade pieces. That's 2 years in the rebuild they saved. |
Not to split hairs, but we actually traded our 1995 1st Rounder for Ceballos, rather than signing him via Free Agency. (side note: that pick later became Michael Finley, who was a darn good player in his own right)
The only reason I bring it up is to demonstrate that West was willing to move a late round pick for a guy who could help now, and Ceballos' acquisition helped us become a good team, which in turn made us an attractive destination for a guy like Shaq.
West also gave himself A LOT of chances at young talent. We remember Van Exel & Eddie, but we also traded Sam Perkins for Doug Christie, drafted George Lynch, Anthony Peeler, Duane Cooper, gave Antonio Harvey & Pig Miller a shot, traded for Mario Bennett (IIRC). West knew that you're not gonna hit with every move that you make when it comes to young players, so you gotta give yourself enough chances.
24 outlined some of the differences between then and now, but by and large I do think that's the blueprint. And with Randle & Clarkson, so far so good. |
Ah yeah, you are correct.
In any event, I think the biggest takeaway is that we can't squander draft picks regardless of how low they are even during our contending years. Even if 1 out of 3 pan out, we're filling up the cupboards.
Elden - 27th pick
Vlade - 26th pick
Nick - 37th pick
The Spurs continue to reload in the same manner.
I think a part of the reason they were so reckless with draft picks is because for the first half of the 2000's, our picks were absolute rubbish. Whether it was the need to find "triangle" guys or whatever (I have no idea), perhaps the FO felt that you'd only get junk with those low draft picks. I hope the lesson is learned even during the bull years in the future. |
1. Also, Ceballos restructured his contract to make the trade happen, which he couldn't do today.
2. I think it was easier to draft in those days because guys came out later. Also information is so easy to get on players it's harder to have an edge. |
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Omar Little
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Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | The new CBA and the swell of salaries to middle tier guy has made it really tough imo.
Cedric Ceballos signed with us in 1994-1995. He made $2m/year that year and the salary cap was $15m. Though he had shortcomings, he was very much a 3rd/4th best type of player. 13% of the salary cap was used on a player of that caliber. Let's juxtapose it to this era. I get that we have to pay out to get these guys, but we're looking at Middleton for a full max or around $15m a year of $65 or 23% of the salary cap. It's crazy but it is what it is.
The thing about the team in the early 90s, we never really "bottomed" out. When Magic retired, we still had young, key pieces to the rebuild. Vlade was 22-23. Elden was the same age. We had 2 starting caliber pieces already in place. We got Nick who was a gem in the second round (Clarkson?) in 1992-93 IIRC. The 1994-1995 season, we drafted Eddie and got Cedric. Bam, starting 5 that went on to upset Seattle.
The problem with what we have now, is we never kept our first rounders (understandably) so there are no Elden/Vlade pieces. That's 2 years in the rebuild they saved. |
Not to split hairs, but we actually traded our 1995 1st Rounder for Ceballos, rather than signing him via Free Agency. (side note: that pick later became Michael Finley, who was a darn good player in his own right)
The only reason I bring it up is to demonstrate that West was willing to move a late round pick for a guy who could help now, and Ceballos' acquisition helped us become a good team, which in turn made us an attractive destination for a guy like Shaq.
West also gave himself A LOT of chances at young talent. We remember Van Exel & Eddie, but we also traded Sam Perkins for Doug Christie, drafted George Lynch, Anthony Peeler, Duane Cooper, gave Antonio Harvey & Pig Miller a shot, traded for Mario Bennett (IIRC). West knew that you're not gonna hit with every move that you make when it comes to young players, so you gotta give yourself enough chances.
24 outlined some of the differences between then and now, but by and large I do think that's the blueprint. And with Randle & Clarkson, so far so good. |
Ah yeah, you are correct.
In any event, I think the biggest takeaway is that we can't squander draft picks regardless of how low they are even during our contending years. Even if 1 out of 3 pan out, we're filling up the cupboards.
Elden - 27th pick
Vlade - 26th pick
Nick - 37th pick
The Spurs continue to reload in the same manner.
I think a part of the reason they were so reckless with draft picks is because for the first half of the 2000's, our picks were absolute rubbish. Whether it was the need to find "triangle" guys or whatever (I have no idea), perhaps the FO felt that you'd only get junk with those low draft picks. I hope the lesson is learned even during the bull years in the future. |
People forget that when Shaq signed, there was no max contract, so by the time LA was a title team and kobe was getting paid too, those two guys were making north of 30 mil in years where the salary cap as a whole was between 35 and 40 million. LA drafted for tri need in those years because they simply didn't have a lot of ways to fill out the roster. |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | It is still very advantageous to playing in LA. For example Shaq took slightly less money for a reason:
1. Excellent young Lakers team
2. Front office headed by Jerry West & Jerry Buss
3. Entertainment moguls sitting court side who could further your career
4. Bright lights, big urban city
5. Weather
Jerry West and Jerry Buss are no longer with the franchise, but with skill and a fortuitous ping pong ball bounce we might have very good young talent. The franchise might be on the upswing if the front office doesn't panic and sign marginal talent this summer. |
I believe the Lakers offered the most money. They gave him $120 million for 7 years while Orlando reportedly offered $110-115 million |
I believe that net of state tax, the Orlando offer was ever-so-slightly more. Given the size of the contract, the few million was absolutely inconsequential. Shaq was playing both sides to the point where the difference was immaterial. That is exactly how you'd want to negotiate; at that point you just incorporate the non-monetary factors to decide. |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | What is amazing is that during the 1990s rebuild, the Lakers only missed the playoffs once, and barely. |
They got in 92 on the last shot of the season. Great gm vs LAC at home, the Clips had a chance to knock them out and they busted their asses trying. Sedale hit a shot over a flopping Doc Rivers to win by a point. Literally: Sedale misses the shot, Lakers are out, Houston is in.
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GOAT MAGIC REEL
SEDALE TRIBUTE
EDDIE DONX! |
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Voices
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Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that by year 5 of this rebuild (2019) we will be contending for the Western Conference championship. |
What year do you consider was our last contending year/season
It already seems like it's been forever since the last contending team.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | This thread in one sentence:
Jerry West was a transcendent General Manager. |
It says a lot of things:
1. Players stayed in college longer so it was easier to get a handle on who to draft because they were more mature. Today drafting is more of a crapshoot and players come into the league less ready.
2. In the days before the Internet/media explosion, players had benefits to being in Los Angeles that aren't as large today.
3. The CBA before made it easier to acquire players. For example, we were able to acquire Ceballos only because he restructured his contract, which he couldn't do today. |
Similar to some of the comments in the Showtime Lakers vs this era thread, I think Jerry West would perform just as well (as a GM) in the current NBA. Even with the player, internet/media, and CBA changes.
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | What is amazing is that during the 1990s rebuild, the Lakers only missed the playoffs once, and barely. |
They got in 92 on the last shot of the season. Great gm vs LAC at home, the Clips had a chance to knock them out and they busted their asses trying. Sedale hit a shot over a flopping Doc Rivers to win by a point. Literally: Sedale misses the shot, Lakers are out, Houston is in. |
Just went over to your channel and re watched that gm, good stuff man. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Glen Rice wasn't a notable player in 2000? |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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2010 would be equal to 1991. Both the last time the Lakers were in the finals. We're 5 years removed from that point so that would put us in 1996. Agreed with a previous poster. We're behind schedule. There are no future megastars on the roster yet. Out young gungs haven't even established themselves yet (Clarkson and Randle) the way Eddie, Van Exel, and Ceballos already had.
We're hoping Mitch can pull a rabbit out of his hat in the next couple years(al la Shaq and Kobe) the way Jerry West had previously. Whether that's by FA or the draft or both remains to be seen. I don't think the FO knows for sure themselves at this point. But I think we can guess that they want to get into contention in the next couple years, which would put them at about the 1998 level. They're behind the previous blueprint but they could catch up quickly.
You can say that the delay was partially caused by serious mistakes (Coaching choices, Nash, Dwight, Kobe contract). But the CBA also plays a big role. I think in spite of the mistakes, we would be about on schedule if not for the CBA. The Lakers have that much in resources, if only they were allowed to use it. |
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J.C. Smith
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | What is amazing is that during the 1990s rebuild, the Lakers only missed the playoffs once, and barely. |
The team was in the Finals the year before though, they basically lost Magic and that started the rebuild but they still had the rest of the team that had Worthy, Scott, Perkins, Vlade, A.C. and added Threatt. So despite losing Magic it took them longer to hit rock bottom. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that by year 5 of this rebuild (2019) we will be contending for the Western Conference championship. |
What year do you consider was our last contending year/season
It already seems like it's been forever since the last contending team. |
In my opinion, the last contending team was Phil's last year.
Everything went downhill with Mike Brown |
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scoobs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I see some similarities...Look at this upcoming draft for example, everybody is talking about Towns, Okafor, Russell, Winslow, Mudiay, etc. But, the best player when it's all said and done could end up being Mario Hezonja. He is a relatively unknown skinny euro shooting guard. I'm not gonna dare say Mario is Kobe but i just see a lot of similarities. I'm pretty sure Kupcheck had the savi to some how get this guy on our roster. Kobe averaged like 8ppg his first season, then like 15ppg, then like 20ppg and the rest is history. I remember dealing Vlade for Kobe was a ballsy move (but a brilliant move)and so was trading Peeler and Lynch to Vancouver in a salary dump(addition by subtraction). I could see similar type moves this offseason. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that by year 5 of this rebuild (2019) we will be contending for the Western Conference championship. |
What year do you consider was our last contending year/season
It already seems like it's been forever since the last contending team. |
In my opinion, the last contending team was Phil's last year.
Everything went downhill with Mike Brown |
With Kobe's bad knee, LA wasnt really a contender in phil's last year either. |
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scoobs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| and like that 1996 off season, we will also have a pick in the Derek fisher range with the houston pick. it would be pretty ironic if we draft an athletic young shooting guard who people are not too familiar with due to the fact that he didn't play college ball in Hezonja. Then with the Houston pick, we take an unknown kid from a small school (like Fisher). Maybe another lefty PG in George Lucas or a defensive PG like Rozier? Maybe Randle/Clarkson get traded like Vlade/Lynch/Peeler? |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that by year 5 of this rebuild (2019) we will be contending for the Western Conference championship. |
What year do you consider was our last contending year/season
It already seems like it's been forever since the last contending team. |
In my opinion, the last contending team was Phil's last year.
Everything went downhill with Mike Brown |
With Kobe's bad knee, LA wasnt really a contender in phil's last year either. |
He was still a dominant player. I really don't see that as a valid excuse. It just wasn't a three championship team in my opinion, no shame in that. |
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RCS926
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Great posts by all. I do think we can learn from the franchise's recent history as Mitch also learned a lot from West. By going back and looking at the rosters/results you see just how intricate it is to go from one Final-drought-Final. A few wrong moves here and there and we don't get back to the Finals.
The reason I used the Finals-back to Finals paradigm is that it's much easier than defining when a true "rebuild" happened. After we lost to the Bulls we retained some of the core vets for a few seasons though they declined. Seems fair to compare those periods IMO.
Great insight from some of the older Lakers fans. |
Who are you calling old?!    |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| RCS926 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Great posts by all. I do think we can learn from the franchise's recent history as Mitch also learned a lot from West. By going back and looking at the rosters/results you see just how intricate it is to go from one Final-drought-Final. A few wrong moves here and there and we don't get back to the Finals.
The reason I used the Finals-back to Finals paradigm is that it's much easier than defining when a true "rebuild" happened. After we lost to the Bulls we retained some of the core vets for a few seasons though they declined. Seems fair to compare those periods IMO.
Great insight from some of the older Lakers fans. |
Who are you calling old?! |
[steps away from his lawn...]
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