Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:10 am    Post subject: Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another

LINK

Let's not get into what derailed the other Baltimore discussion. Let's try to discuss the gist of this article, will there be a conviction?

It's a social issue. Jury selection and Supreme Court rulings ignored.

I think this case will be a turning point in police abuse cases. The opportunity to send a message is glaring.

I believe White America will take a stand realizing, if it can happen to Blacks it can and will happen to Whites.

The SA and the mayor are African American women. Three of the officers are Black. I'd not be surprised to see a conviction.

I plead to the forum, please discuss in a civil, adult manner.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another

jodeke wrote:
LINK

Let's not get into what derailed the other Baltimore discussion. Let's try to discuss the gist of this article, will there be a conviction?

It's a social issue. Jury selection and Supreme Court rulings ignored.

I think this case will be a turning point in police abuse cases. The opportunity to send a message is glaring.

I believe White America will take a stand realizing, if it can happen to Blacks it can and will happen to Whites.

The SA and the mayor are African American women. Three of the officers are Black. I'd not be surprised to see a conviction.

I plead to the forum, please discuss in a civil, adult manner.


The problem is that you can't decide the guilt or innocence of people based on a need to "send a message", nor should you.

You do so based on the merit of the evidence in the case brought to you. And for that reason it is going to be very difficult to convict these cops because it's going to be a very difficult case to prove - at least for the most serious of the charges.

On the surface it seems evident that these cops acted in a way that lead to Grey's death, and I am sure that's the case. But proving that is far different than believing it. The case (at least as it has been laid out so far) hinges on the idea that the cops involved drove Grey around with the intent of causing great injury that they should have known was likely to cause death.

That's not something that is easy to prove, especially in an environment where there is a tendency not to convict cops.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject:

I think the opportunity to send a message should not factor in at all into the decision. In fact, I think taking that into consideration is disgusting.

Look at all the evidence and judge accordingly.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LINK

Let's not get into what derailed the other Baltimore discussion. Let's try to discuss the gist of this article, will there be a conviction?

It's a social issue. Jury selection and Supreme Court rulings ignored.

I think this case will be a turning point in police abuse cases. The opportunity to send a message is glaring.

I believe White America will take a stand realizing, if it can happen to Blacks it can and will happen to Whites.

The SA and the mayor are African American women. Three of the officers are Black. I'd not be surprised to see a conviction.

I plead to the forum, please discuss in a civil, adult manner.


The problem is that you can't decide the guilt or innocence of people based on a need to "send a message", nor should you.

You do so based on the merit of the evidence in the case brought to you. And for that reason it is going to be very difficult to convict these cops because it's going to be a very difficult case to prove - at least for the most serious of the charges.

On the surface it seems evident that these cops acted in a way that lead to Grey's death, and I am sure that's the case. But proving that is far different than believing it. The case (at least as it has been laid out so far) hinges on the idea that the cops involved drove Grey around with the intent of causing great injury that they should have known was likely to cause death.

That's not something that is easy to prove, especially in an environment where there is a tendency not to convict cops.

I think the filing, Depraved Heart, will be enough to convict. They drove around with a injured man in custody. A man heard asking for medical attention. Made four stops before taking him to jail
Quote:
In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is an action where a defendant acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death.
It opens doors 1st, 2nd degree, manslaughter doesn't.

I'm not saying sending a message is a reason to convict, I mean it as just that, send a message to police officers that abuse won't be tolerated.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject:

I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:56 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.


Yep.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
I think the opportunity to send a message should not factor in at all into the decision. In fact, I think taking that into consideration is disgusting.

Look at all the evidence and judge accordingly.

You misunderstand my reason for making that statement.

It's not meant as a reason to make the decision. It's meant to send a message to police officers that abuse won't be tolerated.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:16 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:48 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


I don't do criminal work, nor do I know that state's law, but from an evidence standpoint, you need one of the 6 to turn on the others. They have their own "code" but to me, you still need the evidence.

Yes, a man under their custody was left dead. No doubt. But now you have to show how each officer contributed to it (though you can have other theories of vicarious guilt).
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


I don't do criminal work, nor do I know that state's law, but from an evidence standpoint, you need one of the 6 to turn on the others. They have their own "code" but to me, you still need the evidence.

Yes, a man under their custody was left dead. No doubt. But now you have to show how each officer contributed to it (though you can have other theories of vicarious guilt).

IIRC only one officer was charged with Depraved Heart. If that's in fact true do you think the SA will use that to cause the turn you imply needed to convict?

If they turn on him/her, he/she will turn on them.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.

I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:01 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.

I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent.


The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject:

Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.

Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas?
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.

Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas?

Did you read the OP? If you don't want to engage don't click on the link. It's not mandatory.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.

I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent.


The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report.

I didn't read that. If it's in fact proven to be true it will make a difference. Key phrase trying. Did he succeed?

To who does the preponderance of truth belong?
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.

Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas?

Did you read the OP? If you don't want to engage don't click on the link. It's not mandatory.


LOL. You missed the point. The problem is engaging!

Surely there's other nice things about Baltimore that can be shared?
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another

jodeke wrote:
I'm not saying sending a message is a reason to convict, I mean it as just that, send a message to police officers that abuse won't be tolerated.


...and how would that message be sent?
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.

Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas?

Did you read the OP? If you don't want to engage don't click on the link. It's not mandatory.


LOL. You missed the point. The problem is engaging!

Surely there's other nice things about Baltimore that can be shared?


OK. Why not use the New Topic option and start a thread on "Nice Things About Baltimore?"
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It will be tough.

If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.

The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.

If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:47 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.

I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent.


The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report.


Anyone wonder what that other prisoner was offered?
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