|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
 Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some. |
OK.
My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.
I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction. |
I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention. |
I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.
From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.
Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process. |
Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts. |
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent. |
The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report. |
I didn't read that. If it's in fact proven to be true it will make a difference. Key phrase trying. Did he succeed?
To who does the preponderance of truth belong? |
The goal of a trial isn't to figure out what happened. We may never know the details.
The trial is to determine if the officers are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The officers are innocent until you can prove their guilt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some. |
OK.
My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.
I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction. |
I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention. |
I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.
From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.
Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process. |
Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts. |
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent. |
The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report. |
I didn't read that. If it's in fact proven to be true it will make a difference. Key phrase trying. Did he succeed?
To who does the preponderance of truth belong? |
The goal of a trial isn't to figure out what happened. We may never know the details.
The trial is to determine if the officers are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The officers are innocent until you can prove their guilt. |
IMM that's what gives rise to a conviction on the Depraved Heart filing. I believe that will be easier to prove than Murder I II or Manslaughter etc. .
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.
Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas? |
Did you read the OP? If you don't want to engage don't click on the link. It's not mandatory. |
LOL. You missed the point. The problem is engaging!
Surely there's other nice things about Baltimore that can be shared? |
OK. Why not use the New Topic option and start a thread on "Nice Things About Baltimore?" |
Just trying to help out. I think the last time someone literally begged the mods to ban them so they could be a forum martyr. I was like, wut, really?
These topics always escalate to those levels unfortunately man so just suggesting that we talk about other things that might be more productive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.
Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas? |
Did you read the OP? If you don't want to engage don't click on the link. It's not mandatory. |
LOL. You missed the point. The problem is engaging!
Surely there's other nice things about Baltimore that can be shared? |
OK. Why not use the New Topic option and start a thread on "Nice Things About Baltimore?" |
Just trying to help out. I think the last time someone literally begged the mods to ban them so they could be a forum martyr. I was like, wut, really?
These topics always escalate to those levels unfortunately man so just suggesting that we talk about other things that might be more productive. |
We've heard you post this same message over and over.
Please find something else to talk about in another thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52652
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction. |
The burden of proof always lies solely on the prosecution. It is never up to anyone to prove their are not guilty. That's mandate that judicial system is based upon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction. |
The reason they filed for Depraved Heart Murder is because it's the only murder filing that they could conceivably make. Otherwise they'd just have criminal negligence, which would not go over well with the public.
They're going for the strongest charge that they can. Now it's up to them to prove it. It won't be easy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Oh no. Not another thread about this stuff.
Every one of these gets locked up -- let's talk about something more happy. Any ideas? |
Did you read the OP? If you don't want to engage don't click on the link. It's not mandatory. |
LOL. You missed the point. The problem is engaging!
Surely there's other nice things about Baltimore that can be shared? |
OK. Why not use the New Topic option and start a thread on "Nice Things About Baltimore?" |
Just trying to help out. I think the last time someone literally begged the mods to ban them so they could be a forum martyr. I was like, wut, really?
These topics always escalate to those levels unfortunately man so just suggesting that we talk about other things that might be more productive. |
We've heard you post this same message over and over.
Please find something else to talk about in another thread. |
Ok no probs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction. |
The burden of proof always lies solely on the prosecution. It is never up to anyone to prove their are not guilty. That's mandate that judicial system is based upon. |
Right, I should have thought of that.
How much of a chance do you think there is for a conviction, percent wise? I say about 60%
I give it that percent because of the rash of Black men killed by police recently.
I know it's not supposed to be a reason in the decision, I'm factoring the human emotion element. Also not supposed to be a factor but I think will, the fear of riots.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction. |
The burden of proof always lies solely on the prosecution. It is never up to anyone to prove their are not guilty. That's mandate that judicial system is based upon. |
Right, I should have thought of that.
How much of a chance do you think there is for a conviction, percent wise? I say about 60%
I give it that percent because of the rash of Black men killed by police recently.
I know it's not supposed to be a reason in the decision, I'm factoring the human emotion element. Also not supposed to be a factor but I think will, the fear of riots. |
I don't know what the percentage chance is. It really depends on if they could get them to turn on each other.
Also remember, there is also the very real possibility that they thought Gray was just over exaggerating to give them a hard time. From looking at him, they may really have thought that he'd be fine.
I hope you're wrong about these other factors playing a part in a conviction. If they're convicted, it should be because they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If we find out the that evidence is lacking, but there ends up being a murder conviction, then all that will happen is that a tragedy is compounded by more tragedy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know what the percentage chance is. It really depends on if they could get them to turn on each other.
Also remember, there is also the very real possibility that they thought Gray was just over exaggerating to give them a hard time. From looking at him, they may really have thought that he'd be fine.
I hope you're wrong about these other factors playing a part in a conviction. If they're convicted, it should be because they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If we find out the that evidence is lacking, but there ends up being a murder conviction, then all that will happen is that a tragedy is compounded by more tragedy. |
That might be the method in her madness, filing Depraved Heart on one of the defendants, too get them to turn on one another.
That's the nature of our system. 100% surety is not a given. The human factor can't be ignored.
Not to beat a dead horse but IMO the Zimmerman non conviction was a tragedy compounded. Ish happens.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon May 04, 2015 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know what the percentage chance is. It really depends on if they could get them to turn on each other.
Also remember, there is also the very real possibility that they thought Gray was just over exaggerating to give them a hard time. From looking at him, they may really have thought that he'd be fine.
I hope you're wrong about these other factors playing a part in a conviction. If they're convicted, it should be because they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If we find out the that evidence is lacking, but there ends up being a murder conviction, then all that will happen is that a tragedy is compounded by more tragedy. |
There might be that method in her madness, filing Depraved Heart on one of the defendants, too get them to turn on one another.
That's the nature of our system. 100% surety is not a given. The human factor can't be ignored.
Not to beat a dead horse but IMO the Zimmerman non conviction was a tragedy compounded. Ish happens. |
I think they'd have a higher chance of getting guys to turn if they were all charged with murder. Someone might be afraid to take their chances with the jury.
With that said, it's still very possible that none of them are guilty of murder. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know what the percentage chance is. It really depends on if they could get them to turn on each other.
Also remember, there is also the very real possibility that they thought Gray was just over exaggerating to give them a hard time. From looking at him, they may really have thought that he'd be fine.
I hope you're wrong about these other factors playing a part in a conviction. If they're convicted, it should be because they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If we find out the that evidence is lacking, but there ends up being a murder conviction, then all that will happen is that a tragedy is compounded by more tragedy. |
There might be that method in her madness, filing Depraved Heart on one of the defendants, too get them to turn on one another.
That's the nature of our system. 100% surety is not a given. The human factor can't be ignored.
Not to beat a dead horse but IMO the Zimmerman non conviction was a tragedy compounded. Ish happens. |
I think they'd have a higher chance of getting guys to turn if they were all charged with murder. Someone might be afraid to take their chances with the jury.
With that said, it's still very possible that none of them are guilty of murder. |
LINK
The charges and suspensions;
| Quote: | Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., who drove the police van in which Gray was fatally injured, was charged with second-degree depraved-heart murder, the only officer to be so charged. That charge carries a maximum sentence of 30 years. Goodson, Lieutenant Brian Rice, Sergeant Alicia White, and Officer William Porter were charged with involuntary manslaughter, while Goodson received two further counts of vehicular manslaughter. Rice and Officers Edward Nero and Garrett Miller, who initially arrested Gray, were charged with false imprisonment. All six officers were charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office. All of the officers had been suspended with pay.
|
It's possible. Only one was charged with murder.Somebody's going down. If convicted, I also believe some may lose their jobs.
I can see Goodson giving somebody up in a plea deal.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know what the percentage chance is. It really depends on if they could get them to turn on each other.
Also remember, there is also the very real possibility that they thought Gray was just over exaggerating to give them a hard time. From looking at him, they may really have thought that he'd be fine.
I hope you're wrong about these other factors playing a part in a conviction. If they're convicted, it should be because they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If we find out the that evidence is lacking, but there ends up being a murder conviction, then all that will happen is that a tragedy is compounded by more tragedy. |
There might be that method in her madness, filing Depraved Heart on one of the defendants, too get them to turn on one another.
That's the nature of our system. 100% surety is not a given. The human factor can't be ignored.
Not to beat a dead horse but IMO the Zimmerman non conviction was a tragedy compounded. Ish happens. |
I think they'd have a higher chance of getting guys to turn if they were all charged with murder. Someone might be afraid to take their chances with the jury.
With that said, it's still very possible that none of them are guilty of murder. |
LINK
The charges and suspensions;
| Quote: | Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., who drove the police van in which Gray was fatally injured, was charged with second-degree depraved-heart murder, the only officer to be so charged. That charge carries a maximum sentence of 30 years. Goodson, Lieutenant Brian Rice, Sergeant Alicia White, and Officer William Porter were charged with involuntary manslaughter, while Goodson received two further counts of vehicular manslaughter. Rice and Officers Edward Nero and Garrett Miller, who initially arrested Gray, were charged with false imprisonment. All six officers were charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office. All of the officers had been suspended with pay.
|
It's possible. Only one was charged with murder.Somebody's going down. If convicted, I also believe some may lose their jobs.
I can see Goodson giving somebody up in a plea deal. |
What's the logic in him giving someone up on a plea deal?
I'm not following what you expect to happen except that you think they must be guilty and there must be a way to make that happen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know what the percentage chance is. It really depends on if they could get them to turn on each other.
Also remember, there is also the very real possibility that they thought Gray was just over exaggerating to give them a hard time. From looking at him, they may really have thought that he'd be fine.
I hope you're wrong about these other factors playing a part in a conviction. If they're convicted, it should be because they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If we find out the that evidence is lacking, but there ends up being a murder conviction, then all that will happen is that a tragedy is compounded by more tragedy. |
There might be that method in her madness, filing Depraved Heart on one of the defendants, too get them to turn on one another.
That's the nature of our system. 100% surety is not a given. The human factor can't be ignored.
Not to beat a dead horse but IMO the Zimmerman non conviction was a tragedy compounded. Ish happens. |
I think they'd have a higher chance of getting guys to turn if they were all charged with murder. Someone might be afraid to take their chances with the jury.
With that said, it's still very possible that none of them are guilty of murder. |
LINK
The charges and suspensions;
| Quote: | Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., who drove the police van in which Gray was fatally injured, was charged with second-degree depraved-heart murder, the only officer to be so charged. That charge carries a maximum sentence of 30 years. Goodson, Lieutenant Brian Rice, Sergeant Alicia White, and Officer William Porter were charged with involuntary manslaughter, while Goodson received two further counts of vehicular manslaughter. Rice and Officers Edward Nero and Garrett Miller, who initially arrested Gray, were charged with false imprisonment. All six officers were charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office. All of the officers had been suspended with pay.
|
It's possible. Only one was charged with murder.Somebody's going down. If convicted, I also believe some may lose their jobs.
I can see Goodson giving somebody up in a plea deal. |
What's the logic in him giving someone up on a plea deal?
I'm not following what you expect to happen except that you think they must be guilty and there must be a way to make that happen. |
The logic in giving someone up is he's charged with the most serious offense. To help with convictions on the others officers would be for lesser time.
Let me set your mind straight. Read my posts.
I said given what I've seen and read in the media if I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
I also said if given more evidence of guilt or innocence I side with the preponderance.
If you want to think I've made up my mind that's your prerogative, not my position.
I could, judging from your posts, think you want them to be innocent. Do you?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon May 04, 2015 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: |
Let me set your mind straight. Read my posts.
I said given what I've seen and read in the media if I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart. |
I have read your posts.
Any unbiased person (which you said you are) could not "side with" anything until there is proof. Siding with something before there is proof basically says that you are being biased.
| Quote: | | I also said if given more evidence of guilt or innocence I side with the preponderance. |
They do not have to prove their innocence. They do not have to give evidence for their innocence. That's now how it works.
Also, you would judge this according the "preponderance of the evidence" standard? Not "beyond a reasonable doubt"?
That's not how it's supposed to work unless you have an agenda.
| Quote: | | If you want to think I've made up my mind that's your prerogative, not my position. |
I'm not saying you've made up your mind, but you're starting from a standard that isn't American. In some other countries you can be assumed to be guilty and you're given the opportunity to try to prove your innocence. It's not like that here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | | Any unbiased person (which you said you are) could not "side with" anything until there is proof. Siding with something before there is proof basically says that you are being biased. |
I wrote:
| Quote: | I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent. |
| Quote: | They do not have to prove their innocence. They do not have to give evidence for their innocence. That's now how it works.
Also, you would judge this according the "preponderance of the evidence" standard? Not "beyond a reasonable doubt"?
That's not how it's supposed to work unless you have an agenda.
|
DMR Bought this to my attention, I acknowledge I should have thought about it.
I would judge as instructed. If the preponderance was overwhelming, yes I'd side with it. There's always some doubt. Reasonable fits overwhelming preponderance.
If you chose to give me an agenda, so be it. Doi you have one?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | | Any unbiased person (which you said you are) could not "side with" anything until there is proof. Siding with something before there is proof basically says that you are being biased. |
I wrote:
| Quote: | I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent. |
| Quote: | They do not have to prove their innocence. They do not have to give evidence for their innocence. That's now how it works.
Also, you would judge this according the "preponderance of the evidence" standard? Not "beyond a reasonable doubt"?
That's not how it's supposed to work unless you have an agenda.
|
DMR Bought this to my attention, I acknowledge I should have thought about it.
I would judge as instructed. If the preponderance was overwhelming, yes I'd side with it. There's always some doubt. Reasonable fits overwhelming preponderance.
If you chose to give me an agenda, so be it. You seem to have one. |
I haven't chosen to give you an agenda. Your posts all lead towards the same hypothesis.
I'm not saying that you have some overwhelming want to get these guys convinced, but I'm just saying that your posts have a bias that you believe they are likely guilty.
That's fine for you to believe. Since you're not on the jury, there is nothing inherently bad about simply believing something. It's just not "unbiased", so it ends up being a little confusing when you're talking about the legal process. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | | Any unbiased person (which you said you are) could not "side with" anything until there is proof. Siding with something before there is proof basically says that you are being biased. |
I wrote:
| Quote: | I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent. |
| Quote: | They do not have to prove their innocence. They do not have to give evidence for their innocence. That's now how it works.
Also, you would judge this according the "preponderance of the evidence" standard? Not "beyond a reasonable doubt"?
That's not how it's supposed to work unless you have an agenda.
|
DMR Bought this to my attention, I acknowledge I should have thought about it.
I would judge as instructed. If the preponderance was overwhelming, yes I'd side with it. There's always some doubt. Reasonable fits overwhelming preponderance.
If you chose to give me an agenda, so be it. You seem to have one. |
I haven't chosen to give you an agenda. Your posts all lead towards the same hypothesis.
I'm not saying that you have some overwhelming want to get these guys convinced, but I'm just saying that your posts have a bias that you believe they are likely guilty.
That's fine for you to believe. Since you're not on the jury, there is nothing inherently bad about simply believing something. It's just not "unbiased", so it ends up being a little confusing when you're talking about the legal process. |
OK
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52652
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 7:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction. |
The burden of proof always lies solely on the prosecution. It is never up to anyone to prove their are not guilty. That's mandate that judicial system is based upon. |
Right, I should have thought of that.
How much of a chance do you think there is for a conviction, percent wise? I say about 60%
I give it that percent because of the rash of Black men killed by police recently.
I know it's not supposed to be a reason in the decision, I'm factoring the human emotion element. Also not supposed to be a factor but I think will, the fear of riots. |
I don't know. And I'm not wild about reducing this to percentages as if this a sports bet or something.
Without seeing the actual evidence presented in a legal fashion, who's to know how a jury will rule?
All I can say is that plenty of cops have routinely walked away from much stronger cases than this one.
I'm hoping that any officers charged get properly convicted if it's warranted.
I'm not at all confident that will happen, regardless of the political climate. Nor do I want the political climate to dictate the outcome. Every case should be determined on it's actual merit. The last thing that should happen is that a trial should be determined based on a popular outrage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52652
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: |
I said given what I've seen and read in the media if I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
I also said if given more evidence of guilt or innocence I side with the preponderance. |
Two thoughts. One, Media reports are not the type of evidence one should be weighing a criminal case on. Two, preponderance of evidence is something that applies to civil trials. It's a lesser burden of proof than is required in a criminal trial. Surpassing reasonable doubt is a much higher bar to meet, and it's the requirement for criminally convicting someone. Reasonable doubt can be a touch expectation to meet - particularly when law enforcement officers are the accused.
| Quote: | | If you want to think I've made up my mind that's your prerogative, not my position. |
I know you think you are approaching this subject with an open mind, but in actually, your position as you have expressed it is heavily favored towards a pre-determined desire for an outcome.
I'm actually hoping for the same outcome you are. But I'd like that outcome to be based on it's merits and not a societal need to make up for past injustices. And that's why I will wait for this case to actually play out before I start predicting what "should" happen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Media reports are not the type of evidence one should be weighing a criminal case on. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: |
I said given what I've seen and read in the media if I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
I also said if given more evidence of guilt or innocence I side with the preponderance. |
Two thoughts. One, Media reports are not the type of evidence one should be weighing a criminal case on. Two, preponderance of evidence is something that applies to civil trials. It's a lesser burden of proof than is required in a criminal trial. Surpassing reasonable doubt is a much higher bar to meet, and it's the requirement for criminally convicting someone. Reasonable doubt can be a touch expectation to meet - particularly when law enforcement officers are the accused.
| Quote: | | If you want to think I've made up my mind that's your prerogative, not my position. |
I know you think you are approaching this subject with an open mind, but in actually, your position as you have expressed it is heavily favored towards a pre-determined desire for an outcome.
I'm actually hoping for the same outcome you are. But I'd like that outcome to be based on it's merits and not a societal need to make up for past injustices. And that's why I will wait for this case to actually play out before I start predicting what "should" happen. |
I know media is not a reliable source and shouldn't be used as a tool in decision making. The statement wasn't meant to be taken as I would use it to make one. | Quote: | | I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart. |
The bold italicized is the gist of the meaning. If the entire statement is dissected the intended meaning will unfolded.
Relating to preponderance.
f PREPONDERANCE
1
: a superiority in weight, power, importance, or strength
2
a : a superiority or excess in number or quantity
b : majority
| Quote: | | I would judge as instructed. If the preponderance was overwhelming, yes I'd side with it. There's always some doubt. Reasonable fits overwhelming preponderance. |
By that definition I believe I could come to a beyond a reasonable doubt verdict.
My posts may indicate I have a desired outcome, I really don't. I'm seemingly guilty of media manipulation and understand the misconception.
Allow to express my true mindset. I'm back and forth subject to media. Until all evidence is in I'll waffle. At this juncture I don't have a horse in the race.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reflexx
Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 11163
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: |
I said given what I've seen and read in the media if I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.
I also said if given more evidence of guilt or innocence I side with the preponderance. |
Two thoughts. One, Media reports are not the type of evidence one should be weighing a criminal case on. Two, preponderance of evidence is something that applies to civil trials. It's a lesser burden of proof than is required in a criminal trial. Surpassing reasonable doubt is a much higher bar to meet, and it's the requirement for criminally convicting someone. Reasonable doubt can be a touch expectation to meet - particularly when law enforcement officers are the accused.
| Quote: | | If you want to think I've made up my mind that's your prerogative, not my position. |
I know you think you are approaching this subject with an open mind, but in actually, your position as you have expressed it is heavily favored towards a pre-determined desire for an outcome.
I'm actually hoping for the same outcome you are. But I'd like that outcome to be based on it's merits and not a societal need to make up for past injustices. And that's why I will wait for this case to actually play out before I start predicting what "should" happen. |
I know media is not a reliable source and shouldn't be used as a tool in decision making. The statement wasn't meant to be taken as I would use it to make one. | Quote: | | I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart. |
The bold italicized is the gist of the meaning. If the entire statement is dissected the intended meaning will unfolded.
Relating to preponderance.
f PREPONDERANCE
1
: a superiority in weight, power, importance, or strength
2
a : a superiority or excess in number or quantity
b : majority
| Quote: | | I would judge as instructed. If the preponderance was overwhelming, yes I'd side with it. There's always some doubt. Reasonable fits overwhelming preponderance. |
By that definition I believe I could come to a beyond a reasonable doubt verdict.
My posts may indicate I have a desired outcome, I really don't. I'm seemingly guilty of media manipulation and understand the misconception.
Allow to express my true mindset. I'm back and forth subject to media. Until all evidence is in I'll waffle. At this juncture I don't have a horse in the race. |
Okay, you're saying that with the evidence that we have now in the media, if no new evidence presents itself, you would be prepared to give a guilty verdict because you believe that you have enough existing evidence to prove Depraved Heart Murder beyond a reasonable doubt?
Remember the burden of proof required.
Legally, there is a HUGE difference between that the the preponderance of the evidence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot. |
You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction? |
It will be tough.
If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.
The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.
If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder. |
If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?
I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.
IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction. |
The burden of proof always lies solely on the prosecution. It is never up to anyone to prove their are not guilty. That's mandate that judicial system is based upon. |
Right, I should have thought of that.
How much of a chance do you think there is for a conviction, percent wise? I say about 60%
I give it that percent because of the rash of Black men killed by police recently.
I know it's not supposed to be a reason in the decision, I'm factoring the human emotion element. Also not supposed to be a factor but I think will, the fear of riots. |
I don't know. And I'm not wild about reducing this to percentages as if this a sports bet or something.
Without seeing the actual evidence presented in a legal fashion, who's to know how a jury will rule?
All I can say is that plenty of cops have routinely walked away from much stronger cases than this one.
I'm hoping that any officers charged get properly convicted if it's warranted.
I'm not at all confident that will happen, regardless of the political climate. Nor do I want the political climate to dictate the outcome. Every case should be determined on it's actual merit. The last thing that should happen is that a trial should be determined based on a popular outrage. |
I'm with you on the "sports bet or something." It's just something I threw in to test the waters. I tossed it in because of the rash of Black men killed by the police recently.
You know I have a son in law enforcement so I really want to see justice rendered on a even keel.
To paraphrase from James Baldwin's Another Country, I'd like to put all the corrupt cops in one corner of the world, turn into a big fist and squash them.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
