Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another
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Aussiesuede
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject:

#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:46 pm    Post subject:

OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:58 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.


And the videotape from the security cameras at the Korean store? what were the cops doing..why didn't they take him back to the station when they were supposed to.. why didn't they afford him medical care when he begged for it
did you hear the other occupant in the van say these words or was it just a reporters words?

Do you believe the cops who arrested Kelly Thomas did anything illegal? And was it only two of them? 6 officers beat a 135lb man to death while trying to handcuff him.
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:51 pm    Post subject:

When and if this gets to the courts there will be something other than media reports to base opinions on.

I've gone into the wait and see mode.
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.


And the videotape from the security cameras at the Korean store? what were the cops doing..why didn't they take him back to the station when they were supposed to.. why didn't they afford him medical care when he begged for it
did you hear the other occupant in the van say these words or was it just a reporters words?

Do you believe the cops who arrested Kelly Thomas did anything illegal? And was it only two of them? 6 officers beat a 135lb man to death while trying to handcuff him.

LINK
I think the tapes were confiscated by the police before the looting took place.

Quote:
Over his two years, Hwang said, he had never been robbed. He had never interacted much with the police. Then one day in mid April — Hwang did not recall the exact date but said it happened a few days after Gray had died — a couple of officers entered his store and asked for the security footage from April 12. It was the first time they had ever made such a request, he said. Nobody had asked for his security tape in February, after police shot a man on the sidewalk out front.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:23 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.


And the videotape from the security cameras at the Korean store? what were the cops doing..why didn't they take him back to the station when they were supposed to.. why didn't they afford him medical care when he begged for it
did you hear the other occupant in the van say these words or was it just a reporters words?

Do you believe the cops who arrested Kelly Thomas did anything illegal? And was it only two of them? 6 officers beat a 135lb man to death while trying to handcuff him.

LINK
I think the tapes were confiscated by the police before the looting took place.

Quote:
Over his two years, Hwang said, he had never been robbed. He had never interacted much with the police. Then one day in mid April — Hwang did not recall the exact date but said it happened a few days after Gray had died — a couple of officers entered his store and asked for the security footage from April 12. It was the first time they had ever made such a request, he said. Nobody had asked for his security tape in February, after police shot a man on the sidewalk out front.


Yep..and after the city started rioting his only copy was stolen from his store. So, that means the cops are the only ones who have the video of their wrongdoing.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:01 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.


And the videotape from the security cameras at the Korean store? what were the cops doing..why didn't they take him back to the station when they were supposed to.. why didn't they afford him medical care when he begged for it
did you hear the other occupant in the van say these words or was it just a reporters words?

Do you believe the cops who arrested Kelly Thomas did anything illegal? And was it only two of them? 6 officers beat a 135lb man to death while trying to handcuff him.


I don't "believe" anything.

I'm trying to piece together what may come up at trial.

I don't know what happened to the video tape at the Korean store. It does sound suspicious. But the absence of a tape isn't "evidence". So while it may sound suspicious, it's not relevant when talking about the upcoming trial.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:39 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.



Uh, no. You can't severe your spinal cord doing that.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:43 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


Negligent homicide for sure. I don't believe for the Appeals Court will take those settlements as proof that the officers were taught any such rules of engagement. In any case, even if they did and the act was criminal they will be held accountable based on what was obviously wrong doing. I do believe that heads will roll.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:45 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.

I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent.


The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report.

I didn't read that. If it's in fact proven to be true it will make a difference. Key phrase trying. Did he succeed?

To who does the preponderance of truth belong?


The goal of a trial isn't to figure out what happened. We may never know the details.

The trial is to determine if the officers are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The officers are innocent until you can prove their guilt.



No, they may or they may not be innocent right now. They have the right to the presumption of innocence until proved guilty. Big difference.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:47 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It will be tough.

If the guy was throwing himself into the walls of van and purposely hurting himself, officers might not believe that he really did so with enough force to threaten his own life. I'm sure they get hundreds of people who ask for medical attention when they really don't need it.

The tough thing to prove will be proving that the officers knew that Gray was injured to the point where great bodily harm would like come from their inaction.

If the officers just made a bad call and truly thought he was lying or exaggerating, that's not enough to convict for murder.

If he was throwing himself against the wall, trying to hurt himself, won't the defendants have to prove he actually hurt himself. Who has the burden of proof?

I think Depraved Heart will hold a lot of weight in the decision making. The SA must have some reason for making that filing.

IMM the filing is the right one to garner a conviction.


The reason they filed for Depraved Heart Murder is because it's the only murder filing that they could conceivably make. Otherwise they'd just have criminal negligence, which would not go over well with the public.

They're going for the strongest charge that they can. Now it's up to them to prove it. It won't be easy.


In Baltimore?
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
I think the opportunity to send a message should not factor in at all into the decision. In fact, I think taking that into consideration is disgusting.

Look at all the evidence and judge accordingly.



Juries have been ignoring all of the evidence for centuries when it comes to blacks killed in this country. The needle point is set so far in favor of the police that simply looking at it from an even keeled perspective would be considered sending a message IMO. And the Jury will, I have no doubt in this case. And it will be the right thing to do.

Bottom line is that dude was walking down the street minding his own business and then he was illegally arrested and then he was dead. But this is Baltimore Gentlemen, there WILL be major convictions.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:07 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.



Uh, no. You can't severe your spinal cord doing that.


He supposedly ended up hitting his head or neck on an object.

Is there reason that's not possible? Or is it just not likely?
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:10 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the prosecutor is going to have to find a way for some of the officers to turn against the others, which is a long shot.

You don't think the "Depraved Heart" filing will get a conviction?


It's not any easier to prove than any other kind of intangible motive and harder than some.

OK.

My thinking is, witnesses saying the man was asking for medical attention and denied is the cause of death will be enough for Depraved Heart conviction.

I think that will weigh heavily in jury deliberations. That's why I think the filing is the right one to get a conviction.


I hope you're right, I just don't think it will be easy as it sounds. For that charge to upheld, they are going to have to prove that the officers were aware of the extent of injury and willfully ignored it. Grey simply asking for medical attention doesn't mean that they should have known he was badly hurt. Also, Grey's neck clearly wasn't snapped at the time he asked for such attention.

I'm really trying to be objective. I don't have all the evidence, only what I've read and seen in the media.

From what I've read and my understanding of Depraved Heart, if I were a panel member I'd side with the filing.

Was his neck snapped when he finally arrived at the station? If so, how did it happen? These things aren't known so I can't use them in my decision making process.


Don't take this the wrong way, because I believe you are trying to be objective. But it's hard to say you are being objective when you state that if you were on the panel, you'd make a decision when you haven't actually even heard the evidence in the case in the courtroom and are going by media accounts.

I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

Given more I'd go with most convincing guilty or innocent.


The media have reported that another prisoner stated that Grey was trying to hurt himself in the van. I'm not saying I believe that may be true, but it is a media report.

I didn't read that. If it's in fact proven to be true it will make a difference. Key phrase trying. Did he succeed?

To who does the preponderance of truth belong?


The goal of a trial isn't to figure out what happened. We may never know the details.

The trial is to determine if the officers are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The officers are innocent until you can prove their guilt.



No, they may or they may not be innocent right now. They have the right to the presumption of innocence until proved guilty. Big difference.


I'm only speaking about the upcoming trial and what may play into that.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:17 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
I think the opportunity to send a message should not factor in at all into the decision. In fact, I think taking that into consideration is disgusting.

Look at all the evidence and judge accordingly.



Juries have been ignoring all of the evidence for centuries when it comes to blacks killed in this country. The needle point is set so far in favor of the police that simply looking at it from an even keeled perspective would be considered sending a message IMO. And the Jury will, I have no doubt in this case. And it will be the right thing to do.

Bottom line is that dude was walking down the street minding his own business and then he was illegally arrested and then he was dead. But this is Baltimore Gentlemen, there WILL be major convictions.


I'm pretty sure there will be convictions. I'm not sure that the convictions will be on the more severe charges, like murder.

And no matter what, doing so with the purpose to send a message it's literally reprehensible.

Not saying it won't happen, because morally reprehensible things have happened many times, and will continue to happen. Just saying it's not supposed to have any bearing.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:29 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.



Uh, no. You can't severe your spinal cord doing that.


He supposedly ended up hitting his head or neck on an object.

Is there reason that's not possible? Or is it just not likely?



Assuming he had normal anatomy and not some weird bone disorder, it's not possible.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:30 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
I think the opportunity to send a message should not factor in at all into the decision. In fact, I think taking that into consideration is disgusting.

Look at all the evidence and judge accordingly.



Juries have been ignoring all of the evidence for centuries when it comes to blacks killed in this country. The needle point is set so far in favor of the police that simply looking at it from an even keeled perspective would be considered sending a message IMO. And the Jury will, I have no doubt in this case. And it will be the right thing to do.

Bottom line is that dude was walking down the street minding his own business and then he was illegally arrested and then he was dead. But this is Baltimore Gentlemen, there WILL be major convictions.


I'm pretty sure there will be convictions. I'm not sure that the convictions will be on the more severe charges, like murder.

And no matter what, doing so with the purpose to send a message it's literally reprehensible.

Not saying it won't happen, because morally reprehensible things have happened many times, and will continue to happen. Just saying it's not supposed to have any bearing.



Gotcha.
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject:

Thought Rodney King riots were bad? if no convictions..well...
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:52 am    Post subject:

I can see a chance for a conviction on negligence-based criminal charges.

I haven't followed closely enough, but I don't see how they get anyone on intent-based criminal charges, unless 1 of the 6 (or multiple) turn on the others to save their own skin.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.


It should be mentioned that the prisoner's report has been discredited.

Meanwhile the Baltimore PD has a history of purposely giving "rough rides" to prisoners in order to purposely injure them.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:52 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:07 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I can see a chance for a conviction on negligence-based criminal charges.

I haven't followed closely enough, but I don't see how they get anyone on intent-based criminal charges, unless 1 of the 6 (or multiple) turn on the others to save their own skin.

Can you see the Depraved Heart filing being successful? Only one officer was so charged.

Making four stops before seeking medical attention for a man who was heard to say he needed it from my understanding fits DH
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed May 06, 2015 8:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:08 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.



Uh, no. You can't severe your spinal cord doing that.


He supposedly ended up hitting his head or neck on an object.

Is there reason that's not possible? Or is it just not likely?



Assuming he had normal anatomy and not some weird bone disorder, it's not possible.


Even if he violently fell or threw himself onto an object that hit the back of his neck? I find it hard to believe that it's not possible.

Do I think it happened? No. But I don't have the evidence.

But I'm guessing that they will have at least one medical professional, maybe several, stating that it is possible.
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