Baltimore PD Indictment Is One Thing, Conviction Is Another
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I can see a chance for a conviction on negligence-based criminal charges.

I haven't followed closely enough, but I don't see how they get anyone on intent-based criminal charges, unless 1 of the 6 (or multiple) turn on the others to save their own skin.


Or if the tape turns up and it implicates them.

If I were to make up a story about how things happened, I'm guessing it went something like this...

Quote:
Police were driving and Gray was making a ruckus in the back, slamming himself into things and yelling.

Police stop and go to the back to shackle his legs. Gray resists and then the police use an excessive amount of force to not only get him to comply, but let out their frustration at how he's annoying them. This is captured on camera.

Gray is pretty beat up, but not any more than the police may usually beat up perps that give them trouble. So they don't think much of it.

Gray, while injured, attempts to continue making a ruckus. The shackles on him make him unable to catch himself when the vehicle makes an abrupt stop. He lands on his face with momentum.

He asks for medical attention.

The police think he's just giving them a hard time.


In that scenario, the police definitely are guilty of quite a few things and should serve time. But I'm not sure if anything in there would be enough to prove that they knew his life was in danger, so I'm not sure if the Depraved Heart Murder charge will stick.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
#1. The murder is a case of overcharging, and as such, he'll skate on that one.

#2. A conviction is likely to matter little since an Appeals Court will definitely overturn convictions based on the fact that these officers were acting on the rules of engagement provided to them - as evidenced by the cities willingness to pay out in other cases.

#3. The people establishing those rules of engagement will NOT be held accountable.


I tend to agree, but I think #3 is your safest prediction. They almost never are held accountable.


There are some good points here.

However, I think homicide is actually in play here.

Necks don't severe themselves.


Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.


It should be mentioned that the prisoner's report has been discredited.

Meanwhile the Baltimore PD has a history of purposely giving "rough rides" to prisoners in order to purposely injure them.


Okay. So we can ignore the prisoner report.

...and the "rough rides" thing sounds like it could be something that would be very easy to get a jury to believe. They can probably pull out a laundry list of complaints that all say the same thing.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:52 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Jayne Miller ✔@jemillerwbal
BPD Commissioner Anthony Batts on 4/23 told us second prisoner in police van said Freddie Gray was "mostly quiet".
..


Quote:
The sources quoted by WJLA said the medical examiner had determined Gray’s death was caused by catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van, “apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van.”

It was treated almost as a footnote in a police news conference: Eighteen days into the investigation into Freddie Gray’s death, police announced the transport van made a previously undisclosed stop along the circuitous route from the point where Gray was arrested to the precinct.

“This new stop was discovered from a privately owned camera,” Deputy Commissioner Kevin Davis said without elaborating.

Many observers, though, say the revelation makes the Gray case even more suspicious.


Read more at http://now.snopes.com/2015/04/30/freddie-gray-injured-himself/#ge57FGP062RWzePp.99
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:10 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Quote:
Jayne Miller ✔@jemillerwbal
BPD Commissioner Anthony Batts on 4/23 told us second prisoner in police van said Freddie Gray was "mostly quiet".
..


Quote:
The sources quoted by WJLA said the medical examiner had determined Gray’s death was caused by catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van, “apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van.”

It was treated almost as a footnote in a police news conference: Eighteen days into the investigation into Freddie Gray’s death, police announced the transport van made a previously undisclosed stop along the circuitous route from the point where Gray was arrested to the precinct.

“This new stop was discovered from a privately owned camera,” Deputy Commissioner Kevin Davis said without elaborating.

Many observers, though, say the revelation makes the Gray case even more suspicious.


Read more at http://now.snopes.com/2015/04/30/freddie-gray-injured-himself/#ge57FGP062RWzePp.99


Didn't look good for the officers. Their rough rides will bite them.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Weapons of mass destruction
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Not really, because I was not giving a premature guilty verdict based on a lack of evidence.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:25 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Not really, because I was not giving a premature guilty verdict based on a lack of evidence.

Neither was I. We both used the biggest little word in the English language IF.

Quote:
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Not really, because I was not giving a premature guilty verdict based on a lack of evidence.

Neither was I. We both used the biggest little word in the English language IF.

Quote:
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.


I never had a problem with you having an opinion on the case.

It just doesn't make sense to say you'd find someone guilty before there is enough evidence.

If you said something like, "If this was proven to have happened, then I'd find him guilty" it's much different than "With what little we know now, I'd find him guilty."

The latter says that you would find him guilty before reaching the threshold necessary to establish guilt.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:03 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Not really, because I was not giving a premature guilty verdict based on a lack of evidence.

Neither was I. We both used the biggest little word in the English language IF.

Quote:
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.


I never had a problem with you having an opinion on the case.

It just doesn't make sense to say you'd find someone guilty before there is enough evidence.

If you said something like, "If this was proven to have happened, then I'd find him guilty" it's much different than "With what little we know now, I'd find him guilty."

The latter says that you would find him guilty before reaching the threshold necessary to establish guilt.


I didn't say that, that's YOUR interpretation I said "if this is all there is, will be"

Do you understand what if this is all there is, will be means? Let me tell you what it means to me.

It means if there is no other evidence uncovered and no more will be given what's been presented is enough to side with Depraved Heart. I also said I don't have all the evidence.

Remove the veil that's masking my intent. You either not understanding or are ignoring my intent.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Not really, because I was not giving a premature guilty verdict based on a lack of evidence.

Neither was I. We both used the biggest little word in the English language IF.

Quote:
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.


I never had a problem with you having an opinion on the case.

It just doesn't make sense to say you'd find someone guilty before there is enough evidence.

If you said something like, "If this was proven to have happened, then I'd find him guilty" it's much different than "With what little we know now, I'd find him guilty."

The latter says that you would find him guilty before reaching the threshold necessary to establish guilt.


I didn't say that, that's YOUR interpretation I said "if this is all there is, will be"

Do you understand what if this is all there is, will be means? Let me tell you what it means to me.

It means if there is no other evidence uncovered and no more will be given what's been presented is enough to side with Depraved Heart. I also said I don't have all the evidence.

Remove the veil that's masking my intent. You either not understanding or are ignoring my intent.


I'm sure you mean well. I'm not trying to say you have malicious intent.

But the red bolded part is not how our justice system is supposed to work.

How can you side with Depraved Heart Murder (and by 'side with" I assume you mean find guilt, am I incorrect in this assumption?) if there isn't enough evidence? The fact that you would state that you'd come to a conclusion of guilt with lack of evidence is why I question your bias.

If what we have now is all there is, and all there will be, then there isn't enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

Remember, I'm not saying your bias is bad or evil. I'm just saying that it's' there and that thought process goes against our justice system.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Reflexx wrote:

Quote:
Actually, they can. Well... a person can cause their own technical decapitation... where the bones in the neck separate from the spine.

According to some news reports, the other prisoner said he heard Gray violently slamming himself against the walls of the van. There is supposedly also something in the van that they believe that Gray may have hit his head/neck on that probably caused the injury.

News reports are not evidence.

Key word heard, not seen. Was he in the van alone?


True. News reports are not evidence.

I'm just trying to reconstruct things in my mind. And if the reports were true, then I was wondering how that would play out in court.

But as stated above, DaMuleRules said that the prisoner's report was discredited, so the point is moot.

Sound familiar?


Not really, because I was not giving a premature guilty verdict based on a lack of evidence.

Neither was I. We both used the biggest little word in the English language IF.

Quote:
I'm saying from what I've read and seen though I don't have all the evidence if this is all there is, will be and I were on the panel I'd side with Depraved Heart.


I never had a problem with you having an opinion on the case.

It just doesn't make sense to say you'd find someone guilty before there is enough evidence.

If you said something like, "If this was proven to have happened, then I'd find him guilty" it's much different than "With what little we know now, I'd find him guilty."

The latter says that you would find him guilty before reaching the threshold necessary to establish guilt.


I didn't say that, that's YOUR interpretation I said "if this is all there is, will be"

Do you understand what if this is all there is, will be means? Let me tell you what it means to me.

It means if there is no other evidence uncovered and no more will be given what's been presented is enough to side with Depraved Heart. I also said I don't have all the evidence.

Remove the veil that's masking my intent. You either not understanding or are ignoring my intent.


I'm sure you mean well. I'm not trying to say you have malicious intent.

But the red bolded part is not how our justice system is supposed to work.

How can you side with Depraved Heart Murder (and by 'side with" I assume you mean find guilt, am I incorrect in this assumption?) if there isn't enough evidence? The fact that you would state that you'd come to a conclusion of guilt with lack of evidence is why I question your bias.

If what we have now is all there is, and all there will be, then there isn't enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

Remember, I'm not saying your bias is bad or evil. I'm just saying that it's' there and that thought process goes against our justice system.


Never said it was supposed to work that way. Your interpretation made it so in your mind.

I don't mean this to be disparaging. Either you have a reading comprehension problem or you're trolling. Either way I'm done.
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject:

Can the Baltimore Prosecutor Win Her Case?

LINK

This article has given me a new out look on Depraved Heart. I understand the charge but now see where it's going to be difficult to prove.

The article has also caused me to look at political motivations and unrest concerns. Is Mosby looking to shore up her career? Did she file quickly to quell unrest?

It asks whether or not over charging was on purpose or a mistake. Did she do it with the intent to prosecute lesser charges after pleas?

The law and how it's worked in the courts is interesting and very complicated.

Lawyers have to be familiar with, invented (civil code) 12345 and how to use it to their advantage. In this case they have to prove the officers knew Gray was going to die and did nothing to prevent it, if I have that right?

What path is the SA on? How is she going to proceed?
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject:

Justice Department to investigate Baltimore police for civil rights violations

LINK

The DOJ is involving itself into police abuse more and more. I'm hoping it gets to the point where top level police official's jobs are put in jeopardy. Change has to start at the top.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject:

Lawyers for Baltimore Police Officers Want Prosecutor Off Freddie Gray Case

LINK

I don't know if that's a sign of defendants showing nerves or not. Mosby seems intent on sending someone to jail and on others losing their jobs.

McCulloch wasn't replaced, I don't think Mosby should be. If she is it may send the wrong message.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 5:29 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
This article has given me a new out look on Depraved Heart. I understand the charge but now see where it's going to be difficult to prove.


Why do I think I have heard someone else say that earlier?
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
This article has given me a new out look on Depraved Heart. I understand the charge but now see where it's going to be difficult to prove.


Why do I think I have heard someone else say that earlier?

Maybe because you said it.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject:

Ok. The final Indictment charges are in, and they are a bit more realistic than the originally noted charges:


Quote:
Six Baltimore police officers were indicted Thursday on charges connected to the death of Freddie Gray.

The indictments came after prosecutors presented evidence to a grand jury for two weeks, Baltimore City State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby said.

Gray's death last month after allegedly suffering a devastating spinal injury while in police custody sparked protests and riots in Baltimore.

The six officers face charges that, if they are convicted, could lead to decades in prison, based on their alleged actions that day. Among them: Illegal arrest, misconduct, assault and involuntary manslaughter.


Grand Jury Indictments


Now that they've smartly stepped back from overcharging, they've a fair shot at success. I'd say these are also the most accurate charges to have assessed. Involuntary manslaughter, assault, and misconduct will likely stick. The illegal arrest will likely fail.


Oh, and check out their mug shots. Every single one of them looks shady as hell.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Ok. The final Indictment charges are in, and they are a bit more realistic than the originally noted charges:


Quote:
Six Baltimore police officers were indicted Thursday on charges connected to the death of Freddie Gray.

The indictments came after prosecutors presented evidence to a grand jury for two weeks, Baltimore City State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby said.

Gray's death last month after allegedly suffering a devastating spinal injury while in police custody sparked protests and riots in Baltimore.

The six officers face charges that, if they are convicted, could lead to decades in prison, based on their alleged actions that day. Among them: Illegal arrest, misconduct, assault and involuntary manslaughter.


Grand Jury Indictments


Now that they've smartly stepped back from overcharging, they've a fair shot at success. I'd say these are also the most accurate charges to have assessed. Involuntary manslaughter, assault, and misconduct will likely stick. The illegal arrest will likely fail.


Oh, and check out their mug shots. Every single one of them looks shady as hell.


I'll believe it when I see it. Countless cops have walked from far more obvious acts of violence. I really don't see this coming to much unfortunately.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject:

It does show, in contrast to Ferguson, what happens when the prosecution actually wants an indictment.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:02 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
It does show, in contrast to Ferguson, what happens when the prosecution actually wants an indictment.


Very true.

Let's see how they do when it comes to what really matters - conviction.
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:44 am    Post subject:

The Ferguson influence. Anxious to see how this plays out.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:58 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Ok. The final Indictment charges are in, and they are a bit more realistic than the originally noted charges:


Quote:
Six Baltimore police officers were indicted Thursday on charges connected to the death of Freddie Gray.

The indictments came after prosecutors presented evidence to a grand jury for two weeks, Baltimore City State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby said.

Gray's death last month after allegedly suffering a devastating spinal injury while in police custody sparked protests and riots in Baltimore.

The six officers face charges that, if they are convicted, could lead to decades in prison, based on their alleged actions that day. Among them: Illegal arrest, misconduct, assault and involuntary manslaughter.


Grand Jury Indictments


Now that they've smartly stepped back from overcharging, they've a fair shot at success. I'd say these are also the most accurate charges to have assessed. Involuntary manslaughter, assault, and misconduct will likely stick. The illegal arrest will likely fail.


Oh, and check out their mug shots. Every single one of them looks shady as hell.


their eyes look so angry :(

Quote:
had been advised that Gray needed a medic but allegedly made no effort to assess his condition. "Despite Mr. Gray's seriously deteriorating medical condition, no medical assistance was rendered or summoned for Mr. Gray at that time by any officer,"


WTF?? :(

Why are the police like this and when is it going to stop?
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject:

FYI Crime in Baltimore has surged since Mosbly made her announcement.
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