Who is worth the max this summer?
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PhoenixForce
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
24 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
UFAs

1) LeBron James
2) Marc Gasol
3) LaMarcus Aldridge
4) DeAndre Jordan
5) Kevin Love

RFAs

1) Kawhi Leonard
2) Jimmy Butler
3) Draymond Green
4) Brandon Knight
5) Khris Middleton
6) Tobias Harris

I might be able to be talked into Brook Lopez.


Did his PPP numbers grab your attention?


Ya, that was part of it. Again, my litmus test for a max deal this summer is whether or not a guy can be the 3rd best player on a championship team. I'm not convinced, but he may be able. Something worth considering is that he's part of a terrible offense, and posts solid efficiency across Play Types despite that fact. That would only be helped by being part of a better offense. The rebounding & defensive issues are still there, but he's not as bad as he was a couple of years ago.


I dug into his numbers, and came away (putting aside injury issues) impressed that he could be a transitional piece for us, in more ways than one. He does many of the things Byron asked of Hill, but at a much higher level. So while I'm not really into a post centric offense, at least he is getting decent results out of it. He also is a very good pick and roll finisher, and more importantly, his spot up, cut, and putback numbers indicate that he has value operating off the weak side as well. Backing him up with WCS (or Towns if we get lucky on lotto night) could be a nice thing.


The problem is that you can't just dismiss his injury prone history so easily outside of the numbers. He's more than likely to break down and even more so as he ages. I'm not willing to give him a long term big money deal.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:52 pm    Post subject:

1.) DeAndre Jordan
2.) Kawhi Leonard
3.) Jimmy Butler.

IMO, that's it.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 4:06 pm    Post subject:

RashardA wrote:
1.) DeAndre Jordan
2.) Kawhi Leonard
3.) Jimmy Butler.

IMO, that's it.




No LeBron James, Marc Gasol or LaMarcus Aldridge despite all of them being in their prime?
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Big Game James wrote:
RashardA wrote:
1.) DeAndre Jordan
2.) Kawhi Leonard
3.) Jimmy Butler.

IMO, that's it.




No LeBron James, Marc Gasol or LaMarcus Aldridge despite all of them being in their prime?


LeBron has an opt out, correct? If so, he hasnt opted out yet so he's not a free agent as of now.

As far as the other two, I personally hope the Lakers wont offer a max deal to any player 30 or older. Makes no sense to me to pay max dollars for a player's declining years. Hope that's not how they intend to rebuild this roster.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 5:49 pm    Post subject:

Throw DJ all we have got if Clips choke on Sunday.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject:

FWIW, here's a Deandre Jordan/Goran Dragic comparison http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=dragigo01&p2=jordade01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

and then isolated for "best season" (my editorial cherry picking) http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=dragigo01&y1=2014&p2=jordade01&y2=2015&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#advanced::none

Again, I don't see how he's not max if DJ is supposedly a no-brainer in that tax bracket.
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject:

Dragic will likely get the max.
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: The Max contract is a prove it to me kind of contract

As many hope that we make a Splash in free agency this year. I will dispell the rumors regarding a max deal for Jimmy Butler. We do not dole out max deals for non-max players and young guns who are one hit wonders. He might pan out over time, but to go all in right now would be premature. We will reward those people that can handle the LA market, but to spend max money this summer is premature gossip. We will invest when that special someone comes along with that aura to handle the LA market.

For the time being it is build through the draft and managing our cap space wisely.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:51 am    Post subject:

Max now and max later are two different things. Butler has worked on his offense and crafted his defense. He's one of the few real dual threats, passing on him wouldn't be wise spending.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:56 am    Post subject:

As has been said many times. Not all Max contracts are the same, and you combine that with the upcoming Cap increase and that further negates what his Cap hit will be.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 4:48 am    Post subject:

Rivershow wrote:
As has been said many times. Not all Max contracts are the same, and you combine that with the upcoming Cap increase and that further negates what his Cap hit will be.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:49 am    Post subject:

This thread is so old school LG.
Love it !
Hey Doc
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: The Max contract is a prove it to me kind of contract

Dr.JerryBuss wrote:
As many hope that we make a Splash in free agency this year. I will dispell the rumors regarding a max deal for Jimmy Butler. We do not dole out max deals for non-max players and young guns who are one hit wonders. He might pan out over time, but to go all in right now would be premature. We will reward those people that can handle the LA market, but to spend max money this summer is premature gossip. We will invest when that special someone comes along with that aura to handle the LA market.

For the time being it is build through the draft and managing our cap space wisely.


It would appear you have an imperfect understanding of the cap and the CBA.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: The Max contract is a prove it to me kind of contract

Dr.JerryBuss wrote:
As many hope that we make a Splash in free agency this year. I will dispell the rumors regarding a max deal for Jimmy Butler. We do not dole out max deals for non-max players and young guns who are one hit wonders. He might pan out over time, but to go all in right now would be premature. We will reward those people that can handle the LA market, but to spend max money this summer is premature gossip. We will invest when that special someone comes along with that aura to handle the LA market.

For the time being it is build through the draft and managing our cap space wisely.


If they have good wifi in heaven, stop flirting with the angels and check out the salary cap projections for 2016 and 2017.
It might cause you to change your mind. This is the offseason to "give away" a max to an unproven allstar, if necessary.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:15 am    Post subject:

To add to other other points, Butler is a RFA. You have to overpay to get RFAs.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:37 am    Post subject:

Does the OP have connections with the Lakers?
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:48 am    Post subject:

K0BEE 2.0 wrote:
Does the OP have connections with the Lakers?


The OP is texting from the Great Playboy Mansion in the sky.


Last edited by greenfrog on Sun May 17, 2015 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:20 am    Post subject:

Butler's a no-brainer max player under these circumstances.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject:

Butler gets and deserves his max easily. It's not even a question
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Butler's a no-brainer max player under these circumstances.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject:

now this is the legit list. anyone else does not deserve MAX.

Knowing good and well we are not going to get KL. Lets take him off the list.

Aldridge. I do not want him(Too old and not a good enough defender for my taste).

Marc Gasol= MAX (2 way player with great passing ability for a big, which means he could fit into any offense and with any other players. Due to his defense he could also fit any coaches defensive philosophy. He's big enough to hold his ground against the backdown, and he's smart enough to deal with the pick n roll, while also being a good enough paint clogger)

Jimmy Butler = Max (two way wing player, that was an allstar this season. these guys are not a dime a dozen. nothing else to discuss here.)


Love...max? NO (injury prone-this last time wasnt his fault but still. Non defender and is not as good as he seemed playing on a losing team where he was the goto guy.)


Rondo..max?HELL NO (even if he didnt quit on Cuban and crew. The guy still has a suspect jumper and is suspect from the freethrow line. Can't pay pg's with those flaws max money.


Anyone saying dragic deserve's max is not using their head. The guy isnt getting any younger, his defense is so so at best, and his offense is a one trick pony at the pg spot. He is not a good facilitator/floor general. He is a great little guy scorer(these guys do come a dime a dozen nowadays. oh..we already have one named clarkson)

DJ, who i like does not deserve max. he is not a two way player like you think. yes he gets his points. but how? put backs and lobs. Sure he can score a hint down in the post. But thats a hint. I would almost never use him as a goto guy in a crucial situation would you? And those Free throws. Goodness gracious those free throws.

Now Draymond is interesting. Because he's like a PF/SF version of jimmy Butler- 2 way player. BUUUUT. I just dont smell Max when i look at Draymond. I cant waste my max money on a guy that isnt a lock for the allstar game, i just can't do it. Now with that said, i would pay him a lot of money to be a laker.

Imagine:

pg-Rondo (for cheap, no one else wants him)/clarkson

sg-old man kobe/Jabari Brown

sf-Jimmy butler(max)/Wes Johnson(for dirt cheap)

PF-Draymond/Randle(he's not ready to be a starter yet unless he takes draymond's spot)

C-Marc Gasol (max) / Jordan is still here(or maybe we would have to flip him in order to have enough $$$ to pay all of these guys).

^^^that would be a dream come true. and notice i never said anything about this year's possible top 4 pick.[/quote]

This has got to be one of the worst posts I have read here at LG.

- Wanting Gasol but not Aldridge due to age, even though both are the same age?
- You completely hate on Rondo and then at the end of your post, you have him in your "dream come true" scenario?
- You flame DeAndre Jordan by claiming he's not worth the max because of his offense? You wouldn't be throwing max money at him for his offense obviously! Why did you choose to ignore his huge strengths (rebounding & defense, coupled with incredible FG% when he does score) which is why most of the NBA would throw him a max contract?
- We only have enough money to sign ONE free agent this summer plus ONE ~$5 million player. Yet, your "dream scenario" is getting Jimmy Butler (whom you say you will max), Marc Gasol (whom you say you will max), Draymond Green (whom you say you "would pay him a lot of money to be a Lakers") and Rondo (who could be had maybe for the "~$5 million player.") How do you possibly think we could get all of those guys?




You certainly deserve this from all of us:

LG hoopla[/quote]

sorry that reply doesnt work.

Like i sad Aldridge is older then Marc Gasol: Which guy has played almost 2 seasons more than the other? Aldridge. Do the math(in total playoffs + regular season mins)

^^^just like kobe is not 50 years but his body is due to the mins played. and usage while playing those mins. which means if JJ reddick played 40 mins per and kobe played 40 mins per. both SG's. But these guys are used completely diffrently. In addition both guys have different expectations(JJ is expected to come off of screens and hit 3's and play half way decent defense). While kobe is expected to score 25+ ppg, run the team(floor general), and lock the best players up on defense. Same 40 mins, but completely different Usage within those 40 mins.

Tell me, which guy has had the tougher mins Aldridge or Gasol? We already know this answer since Aldridge has been the 2nd fiddle only to Brandon Roy since his 2nd season at portland. Since B.roy went down with the knee issues. Aldridge has been the #1 and practically only person until lillard just recently. Aldridge was expected to be Kobe at PF more or less. While Marc gasol could come along at a much slower pace being the 2b or 3rd fiddle guy after rudy gay and zbo. Marc didnt officially become the 2nd fiddle until rudy left. And marc has never had to be the #1 guy(which i can see why some would be afraid to give him max. Max usually goes to #1 options. Butttttt, this is a new nba where if it aint Lebron James or curry, can you really say any of these guys are true #1 options. Meaning if these guys played say early 2000's or the 90's, would any of these be considered #1 options? The answer is NO except for perhaps LBJ and super curry.

So with that knowledge i have to find the most COMPLETE players out there.

Name me one Center in the nba that is as complete as Marc Gasol with as little as mins played (in total)/usage. Right now i dont see one out there. Even though i like these two young bigs that are i the draft. I dont forsee either of them becoming great bigs of all time types. I hope i'm wrong for the games sake. So we know we need a legit big, that does 3 things:

- Plays defense(on his man and covers the paint)- check for Marc
- Is a playmaker - Check for Marc
- Can score on the block and the high post(since we know no one is shake on the block these days so i will take my production from high & low - Check for Marc

What other center in the nba does the above? IF you can find me one thats younger or the same age/mins as Marc then fine. But until then. Marc Deserve's the Max. Lastly, his style of play will work much longer then even Aldridge. I Know aldridge is a high post shooter. BUt he still uses his quicks, athleticism to get to the basket when people close out on him. Once LA gets old and slow, he will be 100% jump shot and a suspect playmaker, as well as a super suspect defender.

Gasol will remain a solid defender even as he ages, because he has never been athletic(quick, fast, high jumper). He will remain a great playmaker. He will remain a solid low post presence as well as a solid high post guy.

And this is coming from a guy that likes LA's offensive game a lot.


The other pipe dream stuff was just that PIPE. I said that from the beginning. I like rondo for dirt cheap. not for a lot of money. and darn sure not for the max.

Just because others would give DJ the max has nothing to do with the lakers. So why bring that up? He can't shoot ft's. Therefore, he's a liability at crunch time and before that to be honest. You should never give max to a guy that ONLY plays defense. I will not mention his offense because its non existent without it being mostly perfectly timed lobs and put backs. Can i go to DJ for 15 pts a night? No i can't. Is DJ a good play maker? Not really. So, this guy is a one trick pony for the most part. Dont tell me about his good fg%. So what. He better have a high fg%. He's sitting at the rim waiting on crumbs(lobs and put backs).
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject:

Butler is one of the best two way players in basketball.

Passing on giving him max money would be idiotic.

Not his fault the Bulls lost to the Cavs. It's Thibbs for not getting him and others enough rest and his offensive sets are atrocious.

Dude got out coached by David Blatt.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: The Max contract is a prove it to me kind of contract

Dr.JerryBuss wrote:
As many hope that we make a Splash in free agency this year. I will dispell the rumors regarding a max deal for Jimmy Butler. We do not dole out max deals for non-max players and young guns who are one hit wonders. He might pan out over time, but to go all in right now would be premature. We will reward those people that can handle the LA market, but to spend max money this summer is premature gossip. We will invest when that special someone comes along with that aura to handle the LA market.

For the time being it is build through the draft and managing our cap space wisely.
Why do you think Butler is a one hit wonder? As opposed to a bubbling star? Pre injury would you have paid Max for P.George? If the answer is Yes, then why not do the same with Butler who has proven to you he is very athletic and defensive minded since he was drafted. He then started to add to his offensive game. He's a guy you can go to for a basket, while actually gainng something on defense. I bet if Crawford played defense like butler you would think he was a max guy.

This is similar to what i said about marc gasol. How many other jimmy Butler's are in the nba? wing players who not only play high level defense, are athletic, can shoot the 3, and can score 18+ ppg? That are not already superstars? Klay thompson is one of them. Thats it. Those two guys are it, perhaps wiggins next season. Thats not a dime a dozen type player. We need a wing defender that can cover for old man kobe and take over after he's gone. Or at worse be a stop gap until we find the next kobe, remember eddie jones.. thats jimmy butler my friends.
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject:

imagine having Jimmy Butler and Kawai Leonard on the same team

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject:

RashardA wrote:
1.) DeAndre Jordan
2.) Kawhi Leonard
3.) Jimmy Butler.

IMO, that's it.


I agree with this under the premise that the team will overpay knowing the cap will skyrocket and Kobe comes off the books. All three are younger, making them viable players. Further all three fill positions of need. Most importantly all are noted as defenders. Lakers need a center, SF and replacement for Kobe. Clarkson to me is a tweener and either will play PG in the mold of Westbrook or be 6th man off the bench.

Too bad they don't have the money to get all three as that would be a defensive monster. Take those three along with the current Laker roster and you would kill.
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