It's a battle between probably the two most loathsome teams I can remember. Nobody wins here, and I've been quietly, disgustingly sort of rooting for the Clippers to shut down the Rockets. Now the opportunity to see the Clipps blow this is too good.
Waaayyyyy too good.
Exactly. I posted this on May 8th and now my dream is on the verge of coming true.
Dladi Vidac wrote:
Too many annoying punk ass (bleep) on both teams. Brain might explode thinking of who I want to lose more, so I just ignore it and want to see them both suffer. Perhaps having one team go up 3-1, then have the other team come back and cause big time heart break for the other team and at the same time wear out their star player while doing so causing whoever comes out on top to get swept by the Grizz or Warriors in the conference finals.
Hey you bastages! Give me my props! I called it! My dream came
trueeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! I've been giddy all day at work.
Good call, and I am certainly hoping the other half comes true Houston getting swipe by Golden State.
They are a very raw team, but Ariza gives them that much needed championship swagger and experience. Their match-up with Golden State should be interesting to say at the least.
I think people forget how valuable Ariza was to the Lakers in the 2009 run. Those steals in the pivotal moments of game 1 against Denver solidified our advantage in the series.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
He won the game. If you thought I was referring to him having won a championship that might explain where your bearings are off. He didn't go 6-16 from the line for the playoffs.
If you want to criticize someone for game 6, pick a Clipper, any Clipper.
Dwight had a 20/20 game that he won and you're pointing out why it wasn't a flawless effort. It sounds a lot like the spurned girlfriend who rags on her ex's new girl because of her shoes or something.
I mean, other than just being petty, exactly what is the point? Pointing out a guy could have done better than a 20/20 effort (something I'm not sure we had all season by any player). Or, it's Dwight's fault they didn't win by even more? Lmao.
Treble Clef wrote:
yeah I wonder how his free throw shooting is even a topic. It's the big weakness in his game and there's no secret about it. People think it's ridiculous that he can't learn to shoot them better and rightfully so, but I think it's just as ridiculous that after 10 years, people are expecting something different.
There was a post that complained Howard was thought by some to not be a true champion. I should have made this clear but this is why I brought up the free throw shooting. And it's not just that he has a weakness in his game. It leads me to seriously question if he works hard enough and wants to win badly enough. One 20/20 game doesn't erase those doubts I have about him.
I dislike Lebron James and root against him all the time, but I've been very reluctant to call him a choker even though it would be fun to do that. And it's pretty clear to me that he has worked on his game over the years. I don't really doubt Lebron as a leader.
It's not that unusual for players to have monster games or even monster seasons and have people question if they are a true champion. I've even seen people question Kevin Durant on here. Harden, Westbrook, CP3, and even Blake Griffin have gotten criticized here. Shaq received plenty of criticism in his younger days, and so did Kobe even after he won his first 3 titles.
Peyton Manning is probably the best example today and he actually won a championship. He has come up with so many monster seasons and monster games and still gets labeled a choker.
There's a lot of conversation around bigs and their free throw shooting and whether size impacts a big's ability to shoot. I actually don't think it is size (see Dirk Nowitzki) but rather, style of play. They don't shoot. Many bigs don't shoot ever as they are more back to the basket focused. So it won't matter how many FTs they practice, if they don't have a shooter's mentality, they'll never be good FT shooters.
If you want your big to be a good FT shooter, then you have to move him away from the basket.
That said, if there is one Rockets player to criticize after game 6, it's James Harden. 5-20 from the field, didn't play in the 4th, and he is their #1 guy and runner up MVP.
He won the game. If you thought I was referring to him having won a championship that might explain where your bearings are off. He didn't go 6-16 from the line for the playoffs.
If you want to criticize someone for game 6, pick a Clipper, any Clipper.
Dwight had a 20/20 game that he won and you're pointing out why it wasn't a flawless effort. It sounds a lot like the spurned girlfriend who rags on her ex's new girl because of her shoes or something.
I mean, other than just being petty, exactly what is the point? Pointing out a guy could have done better than a 20/20 effort (something I'm not sure we had all season by any player). Or, it's Dwight's fault they didn't win by even more? Lmao.
Treble Clef wrote:
yeah I wonder how his free throw shooting is even a topic. It's the big weakness in his game and there's no secret about it. People think it's ridiculous that he can't learn to shoot them better and rightfully so, but I think it's just as ridiculous that after 10 years, people are expecting something different.
There was a post that complained Howard was thought by some to not be a true champion. I should have made this clear but this is why I brought up the free throw shooting. And it's not just that he has a weakness in his game. It leads me to seriously question if he works hard enough and wants to win badly enough. One 20/20 game doesn't erase those doubts I have about him.
I dislike Lebron James and root against him all the time, but I've been very reluctant to call him a choker even though it would be fun to do that. And it's pretty clear to me that he has worked on his game over the years. I don't really doubt Lebron as a leader.
It's not that unusual for players to have monster games or even monster seasons and have people question if they are a true champion. I've even seen people question Kevin Durant on here. Harden, Westbrook, CP3, and even Blake Griffin have gotten criticized here. Shaq received plenty of criticism in his younger days, and so did Kobe even after he won his first 3 titles.
Peyton Manning is probably the best example today and he actually won a championship. He has come up with so many monster seasons and monster games and still gets labeled a choker.
There's a lot of conversation around bigs and their free throw shooting and whether size impacts a big's ability to shoot. I actually don't think it is size (see Dirk Nowitzki) but rather, style of play. They don't shoot. Many bigs don't shoot ever as they are more back to the basket focused. So it won't matter how many FTs they practice, if they don't have a shooter's mentality, they'll never be good FT shooters.
If you want your big to be a good FT shooter, then you have to move him away from the basket.
That said, if there is one Rockets player to criticize after game 6, it's James Harden. 5-20 from the field, didn't play in the 4th, and he is their #1 guy and runner up MVP.
I don't know...guys like Tyson Chandler, Mozgov or Tristan Thompson are literally garbage men, PnR finishers and still manage to shoot over 70%.
It just might be psychological with some of these bums. It is what it is and you take the good with the bad with them.
There was a post that complained Howard was thought by some to not be a true champion. I should have made this clear but this is why I brought up the free throw shooting. And it's not just that he has a weakness in his game. It leads me to seriously question if he works hard enough and wants to win badly enough. One 20/20 game doesn't erase those doubts I have about him.
Okay, but It's not like Howard is the first big man who never managed to find a way to make free throws. Let's see:
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
There are a lot of theories about why these guys can't make free throws. The easy explanation is that they must not be working hard enough, but that's an awful lot of superstar centers with the same apparent lack of work ethic.
Toss in Ben Wallace and Wes Unseld.
A lot of rings, a lot of MVP awards, and a lot of finals MVPs have gone to Hall of Famers who were as bad or worst free throwers than Dwight is.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
Ariza was holding out for more money. He thought he was worth more than he really was.
Instead of just waiting, we signed Artest. Once that happened, Ariza couldn't play teams against each other and wait for a higher bid. So he ended up signing with the Rockets for the same amount of money that LA originally offered him.
He didn't really 'walk' as much as all his choices were taken away from him because his agent overplayed his hand.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
I was about as upset as you could get at the time of the Ariza/Artest swap. But Artest was a defensive marvel during that playoff run and hit the biggest shot of the game in Game 7. This issue is settled.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
I was about as upset as you could get at the time of the Ariza/Artest swap. But Artest was a defensive marvel during that playoff run and hit the biggest shot of the game in Game 7. This issue is settled.
Well said.
Also made a big shot in Game 5 in the WCF against the Suns.
He won the game. If you thought I was referring to him having won a championship that might explain where your bearings are off. He didn't go 6-16 from the line for the playoffs.
If you want to criticize someone for game 6, pick a Clipper, any Clipper.
Dwight had a 20/20 game that he won and you're pointing out why it wasn't a flawless effort. It sounds a lot like the spurned girlfriend who rags on her ex's new girl because of her shoes or something.
I mean, other than just being petty, exactly what is the point? Pointing out a guy could have done better than a 20/20 effort (something I'm not sure we had all season by any player). Or, it's Dwight's fault they didn't win by even more? Lmao.
Treble Clef wrote:
yeah I wonder how his free throw shooting is even a topic. It's the big weakness in his game and there's no secret about it. People think it's ridiculous that he can't learn to shoot them better and rightfully so, but I think it's just as ridiculous that after 10 years, people are expecting something different.
There was a post that complained Howard was thought by some to not be a true champion. I should have made this clear but this is why I brought up the free throw shooting. And it's not just that he has a weakness in his game. It leads me to seriously question if he works hard enough and wants to win badly enough. One 20/20 game doesn't erase those doubts I have about him.
I dislike Lebron James and root against him all the time, but I've been very reluctant to call him a choker even though it would be fun to do that. And it's pretty clear to me that he has worked on his game over the years. I don't really doubt Lebron as a leader.
It's not that unusual for players to have monster games or even monster seasons and have people question if they are a true champion. I've even seen people question Kevin Durant on here. Harden, Westbrook, CP3, and even Blake Griffin have gotten criticized here. Shaq received plenty of criticism in his younger days, and so did Kobe even after he won his first 3 titles.
Peyton Manning is probably the best example today and he actually won a championship. He has come up with so many monster seasons and monster games and still gets labeled a choker.
There's a lot of conversation around bigs and their free throw shooting and whether size impacts a big's ability to shoot. I actually don't think it is size (see Dirk Nowitzki) but rather, style of play. They don't shoot. Many bigs don't shoot ever as they are more back to the basket focused. So it won't matter how many FTs they practice, if they don't have a shooter's mentality, they'll never be good FT shooters.
If you want your big to be a good FT shooter, then you have to move him away from the basket.
That said, if there is one Rockets player to criticize after game 6, it's James Harden. 5-20 from the field, didn't play in the 4th, and he is their #1 guy and runner up MVP.
I don't know...guys like Tyson Chandler, Mozgov or Tristan Thompson are literally garbage men, PnR finishers and still manage to shoot over 70%.
It just might be psychological with some of these bums. It is what it is and you take the good with the bad with them.
Tyson Chandler is a career 65% FT shooter.
I'm sure there are exceptions, there are always exceptions.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
Ariza was holding out for more money. He thought he was worth more than he really was.
Instead of just waiting, we signed Artest. Once that happened, Ariza couldn't play teams against each other and wait for a higher bid. So he ended up signing with the Rockets for the same amount of money that LA originally offered him.
He didn't really 'walk' as much as all his choices were taken away from him because his agent overplayed his hand.
1) Yes... I now recall he got offered the same money in Houston that we would have paid him. Thanks for reminding me. That was really a dull headed move on his part. His agent screwed it up big time.
2) One can argue that the Lakers-Celtics series in 2010 wouldn't have gone to 7 games without some of the blunders Artest made in games 2 and 5 (if I remember correctly he missed crucial freethrows and shots). Artest played to his strengths, but signing him did compromise the Lakers long term.
3) My point about Ariza is that you can't expect to continue winning championships if you disregard some of the "core" pieces that got us to the finals in the first place. He's really one of those glue guys like Horry or Fisher. His impact goes beyond what the stats show. The loose balls, the key steals, the three pointers, the momentum changing dunks, key defensive stops... that's what ariza brought to the table.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
Ariza was holding out for more money. He thought he was worth more than he really was.
Instead of just waiting, we signed Artest. Once that happened, Ariza couldn't play teams against each other and wait for a higher bid. So he ended up signing with the Rockets for the same amount of money that LA originally offered him.
He didn't really 'walk' as much as all his choices were taken away from him because his agent overplayed his hand.
1) Yes... I now recall he got offered the same money in Houston that we would have paid him. Thanks for reminding me. That was really a dull headed move on his part. His agent screwed it up big time.
2) One can argue that the Lakers-Celtics series in 2010 wouldn't have gone to 7 games without some of the blunders Artest made in games 2 and 5 (if I remember correctly he missed crucial freethrows and shots). Artest played to his strengths, but signing him did compromise the Lakers long term.
3) My point about Ariza is that you can't expect to continue winning championships if you disregard some of the "core" pieces that got us to the finals in the first place. He's really one of those glue guys like Horry or Fisher. His impact goes beyond what the stats show. The loose balls, the key steals, the three pointers, the momentum changing dunks, key defensive stops... that's what ariza brought to the table.
Back in the day it was when there was a lot of hate for Ariza's AGENT Lee.
He went in and asked for a ton of money which you can't blame him for doing.. UNLESS... he knew there was artest sitting as a free agent.... and unless.. ariza was actually willing to accept the same salary.
But they walked in like idiots and basically demanded more money. Lakers said sure go find more. Lee/Ariza made artest look like a great deal in comparison. Ariza could have resigned, and should have if they knew artest was dying to play in LA.
Then Ariza signed for the same amount somewhere else meaning NO ONE gave him a raise.
heck, if ariza signed, could we have brought in artest anyways? that's the real question. _________________ KOBE!!!
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35750 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:08 am Post subject:
ocho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Mindripper2000 wrote:
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
I was about as upset as you could get at the time of the Ariza/Artest swap. But Artest was a defensive marvel during that playoff run and hit the biggest shot of the game in Game 7. This issue is settled.
This is a myth. He shot 36% during that series and essentially held Pierce to his playoff averages-- far from locking him down. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
Ariza was holding out for more money. He thought he was worth more than he really was.
Instead of just waiting, we signed Artest. Once that happened, Ariza couldn't play teams against each other and wait for a higher bid. So he ended up signing with the Rockets for the same amount of money that LA originally offered him.
He didn't really 'walk' as much as all his choices were taken away from him because his agent overplayed his hand.
1) Yes... I now recall he got offered the same money in Houston that we would have paid him. Thanks for reminding me. That was really a dull headed move on his part. His agent screwed it up big time.
2) One can argue that the Lakers-Celtics series in 2010 wouldn't have gone to 7 games without some of the blunders Artest made in games 2 and 5 (if I remember correctly he missed crucial freethrows and shots). Artest played to his strengths, but signing him did compromise the Lakers long term.
3) My point about Ariza is that you can't expect to continue winning championships if you disregard some of the "core" pieces that got us to the finals in the first place. He's really one of those glue guys like Horry or Fisher. His impact goes beyond what the stats show. The loose balls, the key steals, the three pointers, the momentum changing dunks, key defensive stops... that's what ariza brought to the table.
These stories tend to have a lot of version. In one of Ariza's tellings, the Lakers had told him they felt he was worth the MLE but would match a higher offer if he got one. His agent set up meetings and then he found out the Lakers signed Artest rather than wait to match his offer -- at least that is one of Ariza's versions. Frankly, I doubt this one.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:55 am Post subject:
Kudos to Houston for pulling it out.
I counted them out when they were down 3-1.
Now I get to see what's more efficient. Harden flailing and getting to the line at will. Or Curry jacking up double digit 3PA a game.
Should be interesting. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
I was about as upset as you could get at the time of the Ariza/Artest swap. But Artest was a defensive marvel during that playoff run and hit the biggest shot of the game in Game 7. This issue is settled.
This is a myth. He shot 36% during that series and essentially held Pierce to his playoff averages-- far from locking him down.
I preferred Ariza's athleticism and open court defense and I actually agree that his effect on Pierce was overbilled, but Artest and Gasol were the two most responsible Lakers for that Gm 7 win. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
with all those talks and showboating from Griffin and DJ, deep down inside they're a soft tandem of bigs like to fake as tough guys when things were good. just watch how Bogut gets inside Dwight's tiny head of his and frustrates Dwight with tricks and mind games. Bogut would've been that difference maker in last year's series against Clipper had he was able to play. Maurice Speths and Draymond Green are also good at irritate opposing bigs.
There was a post that complained Howard was thought by some to not be a true champion. I should have made this clear but this is why I brought up the free throw shooting. And it's not just that he has a weakness in his game. It leads me to seriously question if he works hard enough and wants to win badly enough. One 20/20 game doesn't erase those doubts I have about him.
Okay, but It's not like Howard is the first big man who never managed to find a way to make free throws. Let's see:
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
There are a lot of theories about why these guys can't make free throws. The easy explanation is that they must not be working hard enough, but that's an awful lot of superstar centers with the same apparent lack of work ethic.
Wilt and Russell were before my time so I won't comment on them, but Shaq wasn't known for being a hard worker. Also, just being big and strong will give these guys major advantages that most players won't have. Their size helps them do other things well which means they were able to succeed in spite of the bad free throw shooting. As a result, I suspect they won't have as much motivation to be good free throw shooters.
Smaller players will have a much tougher time even making the league if they can't make free throws. Shaq was paid an incredible amount of money even though it was widely known that he was a bad free throw shooter.
Perhaps some of these players don't try to do things the right way, so the problem could be more complicated than a guy not working hard enough. I know that Phil has complained that Shaq would not always listen to him and would try to do things his own way. Shaq also refused to shoot them underhanded because he thought it was unmanly.
The percentage of players in the league that can make 60% or better is high enough that it baffles me if Dwight works hard enough and still can't make them unless there is something about being a big man that makes it more difficult.
Finally, maybe these guys work hard on their games, but continue to work on their strengths and don't target their weaknesses as much as they should.
Last edited by Steve007 on Mon May 18, 2015 3:57 pm; edited 4 times in total
There was a post that complained Howard was thought by some to not be a true champion. I should have made this clear but this is why I brought up the free throw shooting. And it's not just that he has a weakness in his game. It leads me to seriously question if he works hard enough and wants to win badly enough. One 20/20 game doesn't erase those doubts I have about him.
Okay, but It's not like Howard is the first big man who never managed to find a way to make free throws. Let's see:
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
There are a lot of theories about why these guys can't make free throws. The easy explanation is that they must not be working hard enough, but that's an awful lot of superstar centers with the same apparent lack of work ethic.
Toss in Ben Wallace and Wes Unseld.
A lot of rings, a lot of MVP awards, and a lot of finals MVPs have gone to Hall of Famers who were as bad or worst free throwers than Dwight is.
I never really thought of Wallace as a superstar because his offensive game was so limited and I don't remember thinking he could win an MVP. I don't remember him being able to do much of anything on offense. Did he really work that hard to improve his offense?
Quote:
A lot of rings, a lot of MVP awards, and a lot of finals MVPs have gone to Hall of Famers who were as bad or worst free throwers than Dwight is
I'm not sure how meaningful this is as some of those MVPs were won in earlier eras when there were fewer teams and when the rules were more favorable to big men. Also, Dwight isn't on the same level as some of the great centers from the past.
I'm not sure how meaningful this is as some of those MVPs were won in earlier eras when there were fewer teams and when the rules were more favorable to big men. Also, Dwight isn't on the same level as some of the great centers from the past.
Like it or not, Dwight is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. And, like it or not, lots of Hall of Fame centers were bad free throwers. And, like it or not, lots of teams have won championships with centers who were lousy free throwers.
There are certainly valid criticisms you can lay on Dwight. But a lot of the darts you're throwing are missing the dartboard entirely.
Replacing him with Artest was a short term gamble that paid off, but it cost us heavily in the long run. We are definitely paying the price today.
I'm not sure why people keep acting like that was a choice the Lakers made. Ariza walked.
I was about as upset as you could get at the time of the Ariza/Artest swap. But Artest was a defensive marvel during that playoff run and hit the biggest shot of the game in Game 7. This issue is settled.
All of the above, and the fact that Ariza is overrated (highly so on LG). I don't dispute that his torrid three point shooting two month hot streak during the playoffs in '09 contributed greatly toward the title run, but that was more a fluke than the rule. He simply is not that good. The infatuation he garners on LG is baffling. Yeah, he had a great game in the Clips' series, and I know that PER is not the end all be all, but in these playoffs he's sitting at a PER of 11.8. Translation: That's not good. A couple or few years ago (joe blow was basically the caretaker of the thread) he was on the verge of having the worst shooting season in the history of Western Civilization. The Lakers are quite fortunate he played out of his mind during that playoff run.
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 19852 Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:15 pm Post subject:
Dladi Vidac wrote:
Dladi Vidac wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ocho wrote:
Jackobe wrote:
you people rather see Coward wins??
It's a battle between probably the two most loathsome teams I can remember. Nobody wins here, and I've been quietly, disgustingly sort of rooting for the Clippers to shut down the Rockets. Now the opportunity to see the Clipps blow this is too good.
Waaayyyyy too good.
Exactly. I posted this on May 8th and now my dream is on the verge of coming true.
Dladi Vidac wrote:
Too many annoying punk ass (bleep) on both teams. Brain might explode thinking of who I want to lose more, so I just ignore it and want to see them both suffer. Perhaps having one team go up 3-1, then have the other team come back and cause big time heart break for the other team and at the same time wear out their star player while doing so causing whoever comes out on top to get swept by the Grizz or Warriors in the conference finals.
Hey you bastages! Give me my props! I called it! My dream came trueeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! I've been giddy all day at work.
Like it or not, Dwight is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. And, like it or not, lots of Hall of Fame centers were bad free throwers. And, like it or not, lots of teams have won championships with centers who were lousy free throwers.
.
Being a center that wins a championship is a much lower standard than being a center that leads a team to a championship.
Seems like you think I'm arguing that Dwight isn't a great player, which would mean you're attacking something I didn't say.
This whole thing started over the question of whether Dwight is a true champion. I've realized that a serious discussion of this would require a definition. I'm just here because I enjoy talking about basketball, not because I want to feel like I'm writing a philosophy paper. So I don't mind taking back my suggestion that he isn't a true champion. However, I still have some of the same questions about him.
Quote:
There are certainly valid criticisms you can lay on Dwight. But a lot of the darts you're throwing are missing the dartboard entirely.
Yeah, whatever. I get tired of your constant complaining about other posters here. You've done this to me before. I get the feeling that you assume I'm not that bright, and then you make false assumptions about my positions as a result of your opinion about me. In other words, you think I'm saying something much dumber than I really am. I don't even understand why you bother with this forum if you dislike the other posters here so much.
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