I didn't read the article, just looked at the diagram. I knew that would be all that mattered.
Well any list that says Rashard Lewis and Turkoglu are 2 of the 5 most clutch players in the last 15 years must be right.
Immediate problems I see with this "research".
1) Some players have a sample size of 1 or 2 shots. Some have a sample size of 10.
2) If you hit a go ahead basket with 6 seconds or more left on the final clock, it's not clutch. Even if its a game-winner.
3) Free throws don't count as clutch. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Passing the ball to a scrub who misses at the buzzer because you are afraid to take the shot, also should count as a miss.
As should passing the ball to a teammate because you are triple teamed and he makes it. How do you think guys like horry, and Fox, and Fisher, and MWP made big shots?
Kobe had a game winning shot, game winning assist, game winning block and game clinching put back in the biggest series in their sport. At 21. Define clutch? Is it just buzz beaters? How bout 5-2 in the Finals or 2-3? This whole comparison thing is stupid and a waste of life.
Kobe had 7 game winning shots in one freakin season. In 2010. ESPN made a montage of it. Saying he is the least clutch is stupid and you are a (bleep) idiot if you say it. _________________ Because we're better than you!
_________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
It's all bogus. We've had like 5 buzzer beaters in 2 rounds of playoffs. Buzzer beaters used to be rare, like in MJ's time. So it makes sense that players now are hitting more clutch shots if the games tend to be closer at the end. MJ didn't hit more clutch shots...NOT because he couldn't...but because those situations were not as common as it is now. but the articles will not bring these things up.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject:
I think something as simple as reading how many attempts each player had gives one a good idea of how common clutch shots were for each player. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
I didn't read the article, just looked at the diagram. I knew that would be all that mattered.
Well any list that says Rashard Lewis and Turkoglu are 2 of the 5 most clutch players in the last 15 years must be right.
Immediate problems I see with this "research".
1) Some players have a sample size of 1 or 2 shots. Some have a sample size of 10.
2) If you hit a go ahead basket with 6 seconds or more left on the final clock, it's not clutch. Even if its a game-winner.
3) Free throws don't count as clutch.
People have trouble agreeing what "clutch" means; I've never seen any statistical formula that captures clutch in a compelling way.
The stats are what they way: a compilation of go-ahead shots in the last 5 seconds of playoff games. I just think the writer of the article went overboard in giving the stats a significance they don't possess.
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
I feel like these guys add all the numbers to excel, and then run a goal seek to find the parameters to make LeBron look best and kobe look worst.
I think these guys come up with a formula they think is good, and then the results are whatever the results are. I don't think this formula was created with any agenda to produce a certain outcome. I
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 7:45 pm Post subject:
Jackobe wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The article made a good point, you don't have to be one of the best players ever to be clutch.
The only point that article made was, you don't have be clutch to be clutch.
It gives more weight to being clutch in bigger games compared to being clutch in lesser games. That is where some ambiguity comes in, how much weight on a game 7 over a game 1? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: FiveThirtyEight.com: Lebron Most Clutch Shooter, Kobe Least Clutch Shooter
activeverb wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
I feel like these guys add all the numbers to excel, and then run a goal seek to find the parameters to make LeBron look best and kobe look worst.
I think these guys come up with a formula they think is good, and then the results are whatever the results are. I don't think this formula was created with any agenda to produce a certain outcome. I
Its only human. We are doing it now in this thread, trying to figure out the formula to really show Kobe is clutch.
How do they decide the formula should use 6 seconds? Maybe thats one of the variables they adjusted to see how the results looked under different conditions.
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: FiveThirtyEight.com: Lebron Most Clutch Shooter, Kobe Least Clutch Shooter
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
activeverb wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
I feel like these guys add all the numbers to excel, and then run a goal seek to find the parameters to make LeBron look best and kobe look worst.
I think these guys come up with a formula they think is good, and then the results are whatever the results are. I don't think this formula was created with any agenda to produce a certain outcome. I
Its only human. We are doing it now in this thread, trying to figure out the formula to really show Kobe is clutch.
How do they decide the formula should use 6 seconds? Maybe thats one of the variables they adjusted to see how the results looked under different conditions.
The formula used 5 seconds. I suspect he used it because his formula was about end-of-game shots, not clutch per se. And 5 seconds is a tidy number to put into a formula like this.
I don't have your belief that he tinkered with different seconds to make some players look better and some look worst.
Kobe's late game shot selection is horrible so of course the percentage wont be high. There is never any imagination to the plays, it is get Kobe the ball and get out of his way. That is the hardest shot in basketball.
Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Posts: 4330 Location: Meeting the man who met Andy Griffith.
Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:08 pm Post subject:
lakers0505 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
ocho wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujuQheviI7U
winning
Damn, that's a fantastic find. Glad it was recorded. _________________ "The best there is. The best there was. The best there ever will be.", said Bret Hart regarding the Los Angeles Lakers.
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