Death for Tsarnaev
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Death for Tsarnaev

What's the point?

Even if we throw out the idea that an eye for an eye is a dated and despicable approach to justice, his appeal will last for years and years. Likely outlasting the antiquated Death Penalty anyway. It would have been much better for the victims and their families to sentence him to life in prison with no possibility of parole so that this can be put to bed and those affected can move on without the story dragging on every time his case goes through the appeal.

It's not like he'll never be executed, nor should he be. Better for him to just rot away in prison without any more recognition.


Last edited by DaMuleRules on Fri May 15, 2015 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject:

I handled a death penalty case as a young attorney. I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:57 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I handled a death penalty case as a young attorney. I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth.


I can't imagine what that would be like.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
focus
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2526

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I handled a death penalty case as a young attorney. I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth.


Errol Morris movie Thin Blue Line changed my view, supplemented over the years with DNA evidence projects freeing various people. Then what happened last year - where was it Oklahoma with the flubbed injection - added more weight against it. Just too much human flaws too close to cruel and unusual. And the whole state killing people thing as a sanction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:07 am    Post subject:

focus wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I handled a death penalty case as a young attorney. I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth.


Errol Morris movie Thin Blue Line changed my view, supplemented over the years with DNA evidence projects freeing various people. Then what happened last year - where was it Oklahoma with the flubbed injection - added more weight against it. Just too much human flaws too close to cruel and unusual. And the whole state killing people thing as a sanction.


That's what I mean by "more trouble than it's worth." Executing an innocent person, or someone who does not deserve to be executed, is unacceptable in our culture. As a society, we are not going to be satisfied with a system that is less than thorough or less than fair. And we know that it has been applied many times in a manner that is less than thorough and less than fair. There will always be cases in which our faith in the system is challenged.

In my case, my client was a mentally stunted black man convicted by an all white jury (a former DA admitted under oath that it was the policy of the DA's office to strike all black jurors) that included a relative of the victim (albeit not a close relative). His court appointed lawyer did not figure out that his client was mentally stunted (I did), did not introduce some key forensic evidence which indicated that his client was not the shooter, and failed to put on any case at all at the punishment stage.

And, after about seven years of litigation, I lost. The only reason why my client wasn't executed is that another inmate stabbed him to death while playing basketball two weeks before the execution.

This really happened.

Even now, I'm not philosophically opposed to the death penalty, but I have no faith in the system. If we can't get it right, and if we can't be confident that we're getting it right, it's more trouble than it's worth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ribeye
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12612

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:12 am    Post subject:

I accept this but can't celebrate it.

Whereas AEH's "I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth," makes sense, I differ somewhat.

I dislike the death penalty on philosophical grounds but I accept it even so, but with a caveat: I don't trust juries (and even some prosecutors) with their prejudices and ability to be objective to get this right 100% of the time, and if ever an issue needed 100%, it is here. An error here is a true injustice.

What I've proposed in the past is to change the verbiage of the penalty phase of the trial from guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, to become guilty beyond all doubt. Until they do, on most occasions I'm against the death penalty.

It appears, Tsarnaev was indeed guilty beyond all doubt. It does bother me that society must execute him, but his crime bothers me far more, and his death is justified, considering the pain his crime brought to so many.
_________________
"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:46 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
It appears, Tsarnaev was indeed guilty beyond all doubt. It does bother me that society must execute him, but his crime bothers me far more, and his death is justified, considering the pain his crime brought to so many.


I don't disagree with that line of thinking. The problem lies in that the system will now require those victims and their families to be continually be publicly reminded of their pain for years and years as the endless appeal process plays out. That makes the pursuit of closure much more difficult.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ringfinger
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ribeye wrote:
It appears, Tsarnaev was indeed guilty beyond all doubt. It does bother me that society must execute him, but his crime bothers me far more, and his death is justified, considering the pain his crime brought to so many.


I don't disagree with that line of thinking. The problem lies in that the system will now require those victims and their families to be continually be publicly reminded of their pain for years and years as the endless appeal process plays out. That makes the pursuit of closure much more difficult.


So perhaps the issue isn't the death penalty, but rather, the inefficient bureaucracies that occur leading up to the actual execution?

Philosophically, I'm definitely in favor of many things, but it all boils down to execution and to your point, that should be considered as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
kaoss128
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 13058
Location: Morgantown, WV

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Death for Tsarnaev

DaMuleRules wrote:
What's the point?

Even if we throw out the idea that an eye for an eye is a dated and despicable approach to justice, his appeal will last for years and years. Likely outlasting the antiquated Death Penalty anyway. It would have been much better for the victims and their families to sentence him to life in prison with no possibility of parole so that this can be put to bed and those affected can move on without the story dragging on every time his case goes through the appeal.

It's not like he'll never be executed, nor should he be. Better for him to just rot away in prison without any more recognition.


I don't think we're in the position to decide what is and what is not best for the victims and their families.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Death for Tsarnaev

kaoss128 wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
What's the point?

Even if we throw out the idea that an eye for an eye is a dated and despicable approach to justice, his appeal will last for years and years. Likely outlasting the antiquated Death Penalty anyway. It would have been much better for the victims and their families to sentence him to life in prison with no possibility of parole so that this can be put to bed and those affected can move on without the story dragging on every time his case goes through the appeal.

It's not like he'll never be executed, nor should he be. Better for him to just rot away in prison without any more recognition.


I don't think we're in the position to decide what is and what is not best for the victims and their families.


And some of the families involved have expressed exactly what I said - the family of Martin Richard, the 8 year old boy who was killed - formally asked the court to remove the death penalty from consideration for the very reasons I laid out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject:

The problem is that guys like Tsarnaev are the exception, not the rule. It is rare for a capital case to get this level of scrutiny. We can be confident in the result of this proceeding. But what about all the others?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:35 am    Post subject:

There is no reason for society to put someone to death.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
focus
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2526

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
focus wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I handled a death penalty case as a young attorney. I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth.


Errol Morris movie Thin Blue Line changed my view, supplemented over the years with DNA evidence projects freeing various people. Then what happened last year - where was it Oklahoma with the flubbed injection - added more weight against it. Just too much human flaws too close to cruel and unusual. And the whole state killing people thing as a sanction.


That's what I mean by "more trouble than it's worth." Executing an innocent person, or someone who does not deserve to be executed, is unacceptable in our culture. As a society, we are not going to be satisfied with a system that is less than thorough or less than fair. And we know that it has been applied many times in a manner that is less than thorough and less than fair. There will always be cases in which our faith in the system is challenged.

In my case, my client was a mentally stunted black man convicted by an all white jury (a former DA admitted under oath that it was the policy of the DA's office to strike all black jurors) that included a relative of the victim (albeit not a close relative). His court appointed lawyer did not figure out that his client was mentally stunted (I did), did not introduce some key forensic evidence which indicated that his client was not the shooter, and failed to put on any case at all at the punishment stage.

And, after about seven years of litigation, I lost. The only reason why my client wasn't executed is that another inmate stabbed him to death while playing basketball two weeks before the execution.

This really happened.

Even now, I'm not philosophically opposed to the death penalty, but I have no faith in the system. If we can't get it right, and if we can't be confident that we're getting it right, it's more trouble than it's worth.


What a horrible case experience. The juror relative of the victim didn't lead to a retrial? Or the other factors. Where was this if you can say?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
focus
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2526

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:57 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ribeye wrote:
It appears, Tsarnaev was indeed guilty beyond all doubt. It does bother me that society must execute him, but his crime bothers me far more, and his death is justified, considering the pain his crime brought to so many.


I don't disagree with that line of thinking. The problem lies in that the system will now require those victims and their families to be continually be publicly reminded of their pain for years and years as the endless appeal process plays out. That makes the pursuit of closure much more difficult.


I'm sure relatives of the victims by the time of a verdict know that this is a long process ahead, if by nothing else from prosecutors or their own attorneys. Closure might be unique to each victim (or relative). Tough to define for them what closure means to them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:31 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
There is no reason for society to put someone to death.


Yep. It's pretty basic; Either you believe killing is acceptable, or you do not. The minute you start putting astericks next to killing making it acceptable under certain circumstances, you open up everyone to doing exactly the same, making up their own astericks as to when killing is acceptable.

It's just like the lunacy behind telling someone that they can NOT kill the person who raped their mother then stuck an egg beater inside her preventing her from a life of furthur enjoyment after the heinous act, but you CAN kill if some numbnuts tells you someone who never has, nor would, provide a threat to you has some fantasy yellow cake. There is no common sense way to have a sane individual who has experienced both of those equations to rectify the absurdity of it.

I've always been of the belief that the family members, and only the family members, of someone who has had their life permanently negatively changed by death or other heinous acts to their loved ones, get a 24 hour period to do whatever them deem acceptable to the perpertrator. But THEY, and ONLY THEY can commit the act(s). It's much easier to sanction others to do your dirty work for you than it is to do the deed your self. But if you can do it, then have at it. But it's THEIR loss. The idea that the death penalty acts as a deterrent in society? Well that's clearly silliness...
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Death for Tsarnaev

kaoss128 wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
What's the point?

Even if we throw out the idea that an eye for an eye is a dated and despicable approach to justice, his appeal will last for years and years. Likely outlasting the antiquated Death Penalty anyway. It would have been much better for the victims and their families to sentence him to life in prison with no possibility of parole so that this can be put to bed and those affected can move on without the story dragging on every time his case goes through the appeal.

It's not like he'll never be executed, nor should he be. Better for him to just rot away in prison without any more recognition.


I don't think we're in the position to decide what is and what is not best for the victims and their families.


Ok, when I was 11, my 18 year old brother was murdered. And the two people who did it were caught within 15 min of the crime, which was a double murder. I am against the death penalty both on the practical grounds that AH discussed, AND on the philosophical grounds that others have referenced. I just don't think it's the State's job to execute citizens, period. Of course I'm a little bit of a hypocrite because if someone hurt one of my daughters, I'd kill them dead. And I know it's morally wrong, but I'm not the State. I hold them to a higher standard than I do an outraged and somewhat crazy grieving father.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
There is no reason for society to put someone to death.


Yep. It's pretty basic; Either you believe killing is acceptable, or you do not. The minute you start putting astericks next to killing making it acceptable under certain circumstances, you open up everyone to doing exactly the same, making up their own astericks as to when killing is acceptable.

It's just like the lunacy behind telling someone that they can NOT kill the person who sexual assaulted their mother then stuck an egg beater inside her preventing her from a life of furthur enjoyment after the heinous act, but you CAN kill if some numbnuts tells you someone who never has, nor would, provide a threat to you has some fantasy yellow cake. There is no common sense way to have a sane individual who has experienced both of those equations to rectify the absurdity of it.

I've always been of the belief that the family members, and only the family members, of someone who has had their life permanently negatively changed by death or other heinous acts to their loved ones, get a 24 hour period to do whatever them deem acceptable to the perpertrator. But THEY, and ONLY THEY can commit the act(s). It's much easier to sanction others to do your dirty work for you than it is to do the deed your self. But if you can do it, then have at it. But it's THEIR loss. The idea that the death penalty acts as a deterrent in society? Well that's clearly silliness...



I'm cool with that. It wouldn't take that long.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
focus wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I handled a death penalty case as a young attorney. I don't oppose the death penalty on philosophical grounds, but my experience with the system left me with the firm opinion that the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth.


Errol Morris movie Thin Blue Line changed my view, supplemented over the years with DNA evidence projects freeing various people. Then what happened last year - where was it Oklahoma with the flubbed injection - added more weight against it. Just too much human flaws too close to cruel and unusual. And the whole state killing people thing as a sanction.


That's what I mean by "more trouble than it's worth." Executing an innocent person, or someone who does not deserve to be executed, is unacceptable in our culture. As a society, we are not going to be satisfied with a system that is less than thorough or less than fair. And we know that it has been applied many times in a manner that is less than thorough and less than fair. There will always be cases in which our faith in the system is challenged.

In my case, my client was a mentally stunted black man convicted by an all white jury (a former DA admitted under oath that it was the policy of the DA's office to strike all black jurors) that included a relative of the victim (albeit not a close relative). His court appointed lawyer did not figure out that his client was mentally stunted (I did), did not introduce some key forensic evidence which indicated that his client was not the shooter, and failed to put on any case at all at the punishment stage.

And, after about seven years of litigation, I lost. The only reason why my client wasn't executed is that another inmate stabbed him to death while playing basketball two weeks before the execution.


This really happened.

Even now, I'm not philosophically opposed to the death penalty, but I have no faith in the system. If we can't get it right, and if we can't be confident that we're getting it right, it's more trouble than it's worth.



Good bedtime tale. Geez. Makes me wanna Hollar.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
JIFISH
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 9315
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject:

The death penalty should be a violation of the constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

But the Supreme Court danced around this by saying it prohibited punishment that was both cruel AND unusual, and while the death penalty is definitely cruel, it is practiced by so many states that it cannot be considered unusual.

I remember reading that decision when I was young, and just shaking my head.
_________________
I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question - Richard Feynman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Ziggy
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12712

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:36 am    Post subject:

Cruel and unusual

Our society is just so disconnected from death. America is a "civilized" society and as such we aren't faced with death on a daily basis. There is nothing cruel and unusual about ending the life of an individual who feels it's his duty to murder Americans (children included) or maim and amputate innocent lives.

The only thing cruel and unusual about this is the burden on the American people to support his prison time for the next 20 years. We don't need to waste our tax dollars on such scum. Kill him and be done with it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53714

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:


The only thing cruel and unusual about this is the burden on the American people to support his prison time for the next 20 years. We don't need to waste our tax dollars on such scum. Kill him and be done with it.


It costs the taxpayer more to pursue the death penalty. It has no place in a civilized society, for both moral and practical reasons.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jodeke
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67317
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject:

I'm against the death penalty. It doesn't really serve as a deterrent and to many times mistakes have sent innocent people to their deaths.

I suggest penal colonies for certain infractions. If properly run they could be useful to society as a whole. I've read horror stories about penal colonies which is why I prefaced, properly run.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Oliver Reed
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 28 Sep 2014
Posts: 2626
Location: Globo Gym

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Ziggy wrote:


The only thing cruel and unusual about this is the burden on the American people to support his prison time for the next 20 years. We don't need to waste our tax dollars on such scum. Kill him and be done with it.


It costs the taxpayer more to pursue the death penalty. It has no place in a civilized society, for both moral and practical reasons.


Who gives a (bleep) if it's moral or practical. The little (bleep) dropped a bag like a scum sucking coward and killed and disfigured people because of his jihadist BS. There were children and teenagers in that area with several innocent adults roaming around enjoying the finish at the finish line. People that have nothing to do with his (bleep). He will get put down like a dog, it is unfortunate. He should be put in a human meat grinder legs first so he can feel what its like when your legs are blown off before the rest of your body is finished off. (bleep) him and (bleep) his family. I hope they all burn in hell.
_________________
Because we're better than you!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53714

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject:

Oliver Reed wrote:

Who gives a (bleep) if it's moral or practical.


I do and you should. Satisfying your bloodlust can't be the only reason for policy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
999
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 20265

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:07 pm    Post subject:

what a wasted life. believing a phony fascist beliefs, using those beliefs to commit horrible crimes. and in the end. Execution. what a stupid (bleep) him and his brother
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB