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Reflexx
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 Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I'm torn on the death penalty in principle.
I do think that some people do deserve to die, but that doesn't mean that I'd be a good judge about which people that should be. Everyone has certain biases, and in jury trials it can be a roll of the dice on what biases those particular jury happens to have.
I think that there really isn't a way to make the application of it completely fair and consistent. Humans make mistakes, and if someone is executed we can't go back and correct that mistake. |
What would be the advantage to society in putting someone to death? |
If it was done quickly it would reduce the burden on society of having to take care of someone that can't be let into the general populace. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I'm torn on the death penalty in principle.
I do think that some people do deserve to die, but that doesn't mean that I'd be a good judge about which people that should be. Everyone has certain biases, and in jury trials it can be a roll of the dice on what biases those particular jury happens to have.
I think that there really isn't a way to make the application of it completely fair and consistent. Humans make mistakes, and if someone is executed we can't go back and correct that mistake. |
What would be the advantage to society in putting someone to death? |
If it was done quickly it would reduce the burden on society of having to take care of someone that can't be let into the general populace. |
Wait a minute. So killing is OK if it can save you a few bucks? 
If so, then that's definitely another "Only in America" line of thinking.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I'm torn on the death penalty in principle.
I do think that some people do deserve to die, but that doesn't mean that I'd be a good judge about which people that should be. Everyone has certain biases, and in jury trials it can be a roll of the dice on what biases those particular jury happens to have.
I think that there really isn't a way to make the application of it completely fair and consistent. Humans make mistakes, and if someone is executed we can't go back and correct that mistake. |
What would be the advantage to society in putting someone to death? |
If it was done quickly it would reduce the burden on society of having to take care of someone that can't be let into the general populace. |
Only way to do it quickly and cheaply would be to curtail all those pesky appeals, you know, the stuff built in to protect the innocent. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Part of the problem in our society is that we officially live out the same motivations that spur violent criminals. Rage, revenge, a perverted sense of violent justice. Even or sense of punishment is perverse. Punishment is by its nature designed to do three things:
1. Prevent the offender from wanting to offend again.
2. Prevent others from wanting to offend.
3. Prevent particularly egregious violators from having the opportunity to offend again.
Capital punishment, or even harsh, inhumane imprisonment conditions do very little of 1 or 2 (in fact they often feed a culture leading to the opposite), and are unnecessary in most cases to preventing the 3rd. The misplaced sense of "justice owed", an atavistic motivation masquerading as honor, doesn't actually square accounts by extracting one life for another. It merely takes two. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | Part of the problem in our society is that we officially live out the same motivations that spur violent criminals. Rage, revenge, a perverted sense of violent justice. Even or sense of punishment is perverse. Punishment is by its nature designed to do three things:
1. Prevent the offender from wanting to offend again.
2. Prevent others from wanting to offend.
3. Prevent particularly egregious violators from having the opportunity to offend again.
Capital punishment, or even harsh, inhumane imprisonment conditions do very little of 1 or 2 (in fact they often feed a culture leading to the opposite), and are unnecessary in most cases to preventing the 3rd. The misplaced sense of "justice owed", an atavistic motivation masquerading as honor, doesn't actually square accounts by extracting one life for another. It merely takes two. |
I wouldn't be so fast to write off the legitimate societal interest in retribution. There is some value in making the most heinous of offenders face the ultimate punishment. Again, though, I think the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth. |
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I'm torn on the death penalty in principle.
I do think that some people do deserve to die, but that doesn't mean that I'd be a good judge about which people that should be. Everyone has certain biases, and in jury trials it can be a roll of the dice on what biases those particular jury happens to have.
I think that there really isn't a way to make the application of it completely fair and consistent. Humans make mistakes, and if someone is executed we can't go back and correct that mistake. |
What would be the advantage to society in putting someone to death? |
If it was done quickly it would reduce the burden on society of having to take care of someone that can't be let into the general populace. |
Wait a minute. So killing is OK if it can save you a few bucks?
If so, then that's definitely another "Only in America" line of thinking. |
You're addressing an argument that wasn't made.
I didn't say that the reason some deserve to die was to save money.
Some deserve to die because of the deeds they chose to do. Their reason for deserving death isn't about money.
I was asked if there are any ways it could benefit society as a whole. I answered in terms of economics. It costs a lot to keep them alive. |
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I'm torn on the death penalty in principle.
I do think that some people do deserve to die, but that doesn't mean that I'd be a good judge about which people that should be. Everyone has certain biases, and in jury trials it can be a roll of the dice on what biases those particular jury happens to have.
I think that there really isn't a way to make the application of it completely fair and consistent. Humans make mistakes, and if someone is executed we can't go back and correct that mistake. |
What would be the advantage to society in putting someone to death? |
If it was done quickly it would reduce the burden on society of having to take care of someone that can't be let into the general populace. |
Only way to do it quickly and cheaply would be to curtail all those pesky appeals, you know, the stuff built in to protect the innocent. |
True. Which is one reason why I'm not really a fan of the death penalty. It's administered inconsistently and any safeguards to try to guard against that end up costing a ton of resources. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | 24 wrote: | Part of the problem in our society is that we officially live out the same motivations that spur violent criminals. Rage, revenge, a perverted sense of violent justice. Even or sense of punishment is perverse. Punishment is by its nature designed to do three things:
1. Prevent the offender from wanting to offend again.
2. Prevent others from wanting to offend.
3. Prevent particularly egregious violators from having the opportunity to offend again.
Capital punishment, or even harsh, inhumane imprisonment conditions do very little of 1 or 2 (in fact they often feed a culture leading to the opposite), and are unnecessary in most cases to preventing the 3rd. The misplaced sense of "justice owed", an atavistic motivation masquerading as honor, doesn't actually square accounts by extracting one life for another. It merely takes two. |
I wouldn't be so fast to write off the legitimate societal interest in retribution. There is some value in making the most heinous of offenders face the ultimate punishment. Again, though, I think the death penalty is more trouble than it's worth. |
There is no ultimate societal interest in retribution. There is a societal desire for it, however. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | Part of the problem in our society is that we officially live out the same motivations that spur violent criminals. Rage, revenge, a perverted sense of violent justice. Even or sense of punishment is perverse. Punishment is by its nature designed to do three things:
1. Prevent the offender from wanting to offend again.
2. Prevent others from wanting to offend.
3. Prevent particularly egregious violators from having the opportunity to offend again.
Capital punishment, or even harsh, inhumane imprisonment conditions do very little of 1 or 2 (in fact they often feed a culture leading to the opposite), and are unnecessary in most cases to preventing the 3rd. The misplaced sense of "justice owed", an atavistic motivation masquerading as honor, doesn't actually square accounts by extracting one life for another. It merely takes two. |
I agree in theory but, prison doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent either. So what then?
Maybe we ought to bar them from the country and just make them someone else's problem. 
I will say... To me it feels like the proper punishment reserved for only the most heinous of crimes.
If Adolf Hitler were captured alive, I can't think of any humane punishment more suitable. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Progressive societies have learned that punishment, retribution, state sanctioned violence, and the incarceration and harsh penalty model is exactly not in society's interest. |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I'm torn on the death penalty in principle.
I do think that some people do deserve to die, but that doesn't mean that I'd be a good judge about which people that should be. Everyone has certain biases, and in jury trials it can be a roll of the dice on what biases those particular jury happens to have.
I think that there really isn't a way to make the application of it completely fair and consistent. Humans make mistakes, and if someone is executed we can't go back and correct that mistake. |
What would be the advantage to society in putting someone to death? |
If it was done quickly it would reduce the burden on society of having to take care of someone that can't be let into the general populace. |
Wait a minute. So killing is OK if it can save you a few bucks?
If so, then that's definitely another "Only in America" line of thinking. |
You're addressing an argument that wasn't made.
I didn't say that the reason some deserve to die was to save money.
Some deserve to die because of the deeds they chose to do. Their reason for deserving death isn't about money.
I was asked if there are any ways it could benefit society as a whole. I answered in terms of economics. It costs a lot to keep them alive. |
Fair enough. Consider an official mea culpa rendered for making a misguided assumption you never intended.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Progressive societies have learned that punishment, retribution, state sanctioned violence, and the incarceration and harsh penalty model is exactly not in society's interest. |
So which progressive society has eliminated crime? (Or at least, cone close to it?) |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Progressive societies have learned that punishment, retribution, state sanctioned violence, and the incarceration and harsh penalty model is exactly not in society's interest. |
So which progressive society has eliminated crime? (Or at least, cone close to it?) |
That's like asking what medically advanced society has eliminated illness. But it is no secret that the nations that have moved away from harsh incarceration/capital punishment models, and who have coupled that with a lot of other programs that foster prevention of violent crime, have much lower occurrences of it. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Progressive societies have learned that punishment, retribution, state sanctioned violence, and the incarceration and harsh penalty model is exactly not in society's interest. |
So which progressive society has eliminated crime? (Or at least, cone close to it?) |
Impossible to eliminate crime, but countries which take a more enlightened approach to the administration of justice consistently experience a lower rate of recedivism. Which shouldn't be surprising. Thinking that using a 5th century model of warehousing criminals in an environment in which their simple human survival instinct all but forces them to become a better criminal;
and then providing them with the networking opportunities afforded by continual contact with other criminals enduring the same;
then releasing them back into the population with impediments and handicaps that the remainder of society are not dealing with - and expecting success? Well, that's just not very bright.
Here's Norways model which produces a 20% recidivism rate, vs the US model which produces a 76% recidivism rate:
| Quote: |
The country relies on a concept called "restorative justice," which aims to repair the harm caused by crime rather than punish people. This system focuses on rehabilitating prisoners.
Take a look at Halden Prison, and you'll see what we mean. The 75-acre facility maintains as much "normalcy" as possible. That means no bars on the windows, kitchens fully equipped with sharp objects, and friendships between guards and inmates. For Norway, removing people's freedom is enough of a punishment.
Like many prisons, Halden seeks to prepare inmates for life on the outside with vocational programs: woodworking, assembly workshops, and even a recording studio.
Halden isn't an anomaly either. Bastoy prison is also quite nice.
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Norways Successful Prison System
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Hate these types of discussions because it always ends up with people saying "well if you're for the death penalty than you are Tsarnaev"
Oversimplification at its finest.
(And only second it annoyance factor, to people who insert ridiculously long links to break the thread. Thanks a lot). |
I know I know, I (bleep) up, and I couldnt change it fast enough before there was a reply. I (bleep) up. Sorry. |
You are hereby sentenced to DEATH! |
Why should he get off so easy? |
A little torture before we throw the switch? |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | 24 wrote: | “You can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners”.
Fyodor Dostoevsky
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
Ghandi |
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"
God  |
"I like turtles"
-Zombie Kid |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Here's Norways model which produces a 20% recidivism rate, vs the US model which produces a 76% recidivism rate: |
That stat was shot to hell when Frankie Tagliano moved there. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Here's Norways model which produces a 20% recidivism rate, vs the US model which produces a 76% recidivism rate: |
That stat was shot to hell when Frankie Tagliano moved there. |
Those Twin Girls will mellow him out! 
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
A civilized society wouldn't produce mass murderers. So perhaps we're not as civilized as we think we are. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
A civilized society wouldn't produce mass murderers. So perhaps we're not as civilized as we think we are. |
1) We DEFINITELY are NOT as civilised as we think we are.
2) Society doesn't produce mass murderer's. That's a proclivity that comes from self. There is no way to weed out that proclivity at this stage of our evolution. It might be gene driven, or it might be up to simple chance. Most people will simply pattern based upon what they are taught by parents, and augmented by the environment of their upbringing. Some, a minority amongst us, will choose an independent path regardless of those influences. Everything that occurred in my early life usually produces a conservative, religious, breeder. The patterning took with my sisters, but never even entered the equation with me. I was hardwired to choose my own path regardless of the rather extreme attempts by my parents to get the patterning to take.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | ^^^Then you are a better man then I am |
Btw if that really had happened to a member of my family and you ask me the same question that day, I might sing a different tune out of emotion and anger. We have to strive to be better than our worst impulses, especially when it is least convenient. |
In addition, this is a case in point for why the families of murder victims aren't the best choice for determining the punishment for the murderers. If it was a member of my family, death wouldn't be good enough. I'd want it to be cruel and unusual. It's an occasion where I wouldn't be of a rational mind to make what needs to be a rational decision. |
Solitary confinement is considered "cruel and unusual" punishment by some. I personally believe, for someone like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it would fit the bill.
No human contact, exception guards, no radio, TV, Internet, complete isolation from the outside world. Only existence would be with self.
Locked down 24/7, given 1 hour a day to exercise. Tsarnaev would have to live with himself with nothing but time to think about what he did and the consequences. |
Excessive solitary confinement is torture. A civilized society doesn't condone or support torture. |
Exactly. |
In the case of Tsarnaev I deem solitary confinement acceptable.
He's a person I'd want to live not die. I want him to suffer for his indiscretion.
Those affected by the bombing are suffering, IMO, he should too.
Relating to that civilized society how many things are done that are not civilized? Make a list!!!
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Tue May 19, 2015 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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