at Howard, Harden and his lone defender in this thread.
(bleep) Houston.
_________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
You can't win the MVP unless your team has either the best or second best record in conference.... it's always been like this or else MJ would have won tons of MVPs in the late 80s when he was scoring 30+ every season on 50%+ shooting every season. Heck, his best statistical season was 1986-1987 when he averaged 37,1 points per game. But the Bulls were just an average playoff team back then and not true contenders...
So Kobe not winning it in the years the Lakers were mediocre is absolutely understandable. He shouldn't have. He was the best individual player in the game without a doubt. But the MVP is as much about team achievement as it is individual achievement.
I always thought it was about what player was of the most value to there team. I feel Kobe had a far worse cast as compared to Nash, and that the Lakers had to depend on kobe more then the suns on Nash, but to each there own.
The typical system rewards players who are on good teams but your idea would reward players who are on bad teams. I think both systems have flaws that give players credit for things that they have no control of but given the choice, I'd rather MVPs come from good teams. Anthony Davis had an amazing year and all but I did not want to see him get MVP on a team that barely made the playoffs and got swept once it got there.
The weird thing about this thread is that it seems to imply that Harden didn't play well. On the contrary, he had a great game. If it wasn't for his excellence, the Rockets aren't even in the game. That last play ended badly for them, but I blame McHale as much as anyone - should've called a timeout. I'm rooting for Golden State as well, and certainly Harden is no Kobe, but after that game, it seems like an odd time to pick on Harden, since he was brilliant for 47 min and 50 sec...
When there were 4.9 sec left, OBH had created separation and had the chance to pull up for an open 20 footer. Instead he passed to D12 who was 23 feet from the basket. That decision sealed his fate. It was an extremely poor decision in a critical moment in their season. It was definitely anti-clutch by any measure unless your name is Henry Abbott.
Okay, yeah, sure... The end of the game wasn't his greatest moment, but so what. He's had plenty of clutch moments. He screwed up and he knew it.
Also, how about some credit to GS defense on that play - Steph and Klay trapped him perfectly.
I just don't understand this thread. Harden was amazing that game. Period. This just feels like hating to me...
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
The weird thing about this thread is that it seems to imply that Harden didn't play well. On the contrary, he had a great game. If it wasn't for his excellence, the Rockets aren't even in the game. That last play ended badly for them, but I blame McHale as much as anyone - should've called a timeout. I'm rooting for Golden State as well, and certainly Harden is no Kobe, but after that game, it seems like an odd time to pick on Harden, since he was brilliant for 47 min and 50 sec...
When there were 4.9 sec left, OBH had created separation and had the chance to pull up for an open 20 footer. Instead he passed to D12 who was 23 feet from the basket. That decision sealed his fate. It was an extremely poor decision in a critical moment in their season. It was definitely anti-clutch by any measure unless your name is Henry Abbott.
Okay, yeah, sure... The end of the game wasn't his greatest moment, but so what. He's had plenty of clutch moments. He screwed up and he knew it.
Also, how about some credit to GS defense on that play - Steph and Klay trapped him perfectly.
I just don't understand this thread. Harden was amazing that game. Period. This just feels like hating to me...
This thread is basically just for fun. It was what someone that I know would call a "momentous moment" lol.
It's rare to have important plays involving the MVP and runner up, so it was just interesting, poetic, etc.
Harden in this series has shown that he is amazing, but he hasn't yet fully delivered in the end. And Curry has. So that's all! Sorry Harden! I like it because I just prefer the way Curry plays.
Harden almost had an amazing 4th quarter in game 1, but he made too many mistakes the last half of the quarter. If he ended the way he started, it would have been a historical moment. Sorry!! lol!!!
he knows it too. He knows he botched the last two games. If Houston won the first two games, and Harden made those 5 shots in game one to close out the game, and he delivered on that last play in game 2, he would be a legend right now. Sorry!!!! I am loving it, though.
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
Curry's career is off to a nice start but until he does top notch defense, carry his team to multiple championships... too early prediction to leap frog anybody into the 2nd place behind MJ throne
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
I still don't think he shoots as well as Kobe. I think if you limit the discussion to 3 pointers, yes, he is better. But overall shooting, I don't think so. We'll see how it goes with Curry, but he is not on Kobe level yet for all around shooting. Curry still needs a lot of screens and stuff to get him the room, he is nowhere near Kobe's level in terms of being able to get those looks without the screens.
The most impressive thing about Curry is that if he sets his feet and can get his mechanics going, he is deadly. But if he can't and has to do something more creative on the fly, he isn't the deadly shooter we think he is. Kobe has shown that he will make crazy shots while contorting and he just has more ways to score.
Right now, Curry is closer to Ray Allen than Kobe. We'll see what happens.
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
You can combine Steph with Dell & Seth, even add some Sydel, and they still wouldn't be better than Kobe. You need to slap yourself in the back of the head for that comment .
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
I still don't think he shoots as well as Kobe. I think if you limit the discussion to 3 pointers, yes, he is better. But overall shooting, I don't think so. We'll see how it goes with Curry, but he is not on Kobe level yet for all around shooting. Curry still needs a lot of screens and stuff to get him the room, he is nowhere near Kobe's level in terms of being able to get those looks without the screens.
The most impressive thing about Curry is that if he sets his feet and can get his mechanics going, he is deadly. But if he can't and has to do something more creative on the fly, he isn't the deadly shooter we think he is. Kobe has shown that he will make crazy shots while contorting and he just has more ways to score.
Right now, Curry is closer to Ray Allen than Kobe. We'll see what happens.
First off, I said if he keeps it up and I said I was specifically referring to his offensive skills. I also totally disagree with you on his shot making ability. He is unguardable like the greats. He has the quickest release perhaps in the history of the NBA. He is by far the best shooter I have ever seen and no, Kobe is not close in this regard. Take a look at Steph's statistics ... they are ungodley and have NEVER been matched.. Sure he is not as good as MJ and Kobe defensively but his shot making ability is off the charts. He has already demolished all records for 3 point shooting in the playoffs and he is still quite young. Anyone who laughs is either a complete homer or not paying attention.
You can't win the MVP unless your team has either the best or second best record in conference.... it's always been like this or else MJ would have won tons of MVPs in the late 80s when he was scoring 30+ every season on 50%+ shooting every season. Heck, his best statistical season was 1986-1987 when he averaged 37,1 points per game. But the Bulls were just an average playoff team back then and not true contenders...
So Kobe not winning it in the years the Lakers were mediocre is absolutely understandable. He shouldn't have. He was the best individual player in the game without a doubt. But the MVP is as much about team achievement as it is individual achievement.
Media changes the rules to how they vote whenever it suits them. Many left Kobe off their ballot that year and he finished 4th with the "team wasn't good enough". A few years later Wade had a similar team and he averaged I believe 30ppg and finished 2nd.
It really should be "outstanding player" instead of MVP. You really can't pick an MVP as what teams require is different depending on players. PG & QB's always have the edge because they pass. Further media has no business voting anyways.
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
I still don't think he shoots as well as Kobe. I think if you limit the discussion to 3 pointers, yes, he is better. But overall shooting, I don't think so. We'll see how it goes with Curry, but he is not on Kobe level yet for all around shooting. Curry still needs a lot of screens and stuff to get him the room, he is nowhere near Kobe's level in terms of being able to get those looks without the screens.
The most impressive thing about Curry is that if he sets his feet and can get his mechanics going, he is deadly. But if he can't and has to do something more creative on the fly, he isn't the deadly shooter we think he is. Kobe has shown that he will make crazy shots while contorting and he just has more ways to score.
Right now, Curry is closer to Ray Allen than Kobe. We'll see what happens.
First off, I said if he keeps it up and I said I was specifically referring to his offensive skills. I also totally disagree with you on his shot making ability. He is unguardable like the greats. He has the quickest release perhaps in the history of the NBA. He is by far the best shooter I have ever seen and no, Kobe is not close in this regard. Take a look at Steph's statistics ... they are ungodley and have NEVER been matched.. Sure he is not as good as MJ and Kobe defensively but his shot making ability is off the charts. He has already demolished all records for 3 point shooting in the playoffs and he is still quite young. Anyone who laughs is either a complete homer or not paying attention.
curry is underrated defensively too. Need to watch with a keen eye, and the stats like drtg and dws back this up over the last couple of years. _________________ Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
Wow, interesting how much better Jordan was defensively than Bryant. It's not close. Don't see how they belong in the same sentence at all. _________________ Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
Wow, interesting how much better Jordan was defensively than Bryant. It's not close. Don't see how they belong in the same sentence at all.
where are you getting this?? ridiculous.
Go look at their annual defensive ratings, see where they finish.
Of course, that's not the be-all, end-all either. One stat never tells the whole story, but this one is certainly a good starting point. I'm far from Jordan's biggest jock. I cheered against the guy with all my heart. But there's a reason he's the measuring stick. Yes, he's superior. Statistically and with the eye test.
Bryant is probably the most reasonable facsimile, but the gap is wider than people think. The comparisons become rather disrespectful to Jordan at a certain point. Same thing when others are compared to him. Never saw it to begin with, and the stats mostly bear this out. _________________ Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
Curry ISN"T a SG he is a POINT GUARD. If he continues to play like he has the last 2-3 years he will enter the discussion for the best PG's in history.
Wow, interesting how much better Jordan was defensively than Bryant. It's not close. Don't see how they belong in the same sentence at all.
Prime Kobe was a better defender than Jordan especially when you consider who they had to guard during their careers. Jordan was only guarding the best players on the opposing team until 1991 when Scottie took over as the primary defender.
Wow, interesting how much better Jordan was defensively than Bryant. It's not close. Don't see how they belong in the same sentence at all.
Prime Kobe was a better defender than Jordan especially when you consider who they had to guard during their careers. Jordan was only guarding the best players on the opposing team until 1991 when Scottie took over as the primary defender.
It's true Pippen was a better defensive option in many cases, perhaps even most. He was a better defender than he's given credit for. He was better than Jordan and Bryant, and the stats more/less show that. As far Bryant guarding better players, let's revisit that. On occasion, he was assigned to Bibby in that one series. Was he always assigned to Parker? Was he always guarding Pierce/Allen, or was it mostly Rondo?
Just want facts to support. This is like watching those ancient broadcasts with analysts telling the viewers that Magic couldn't shoot from the outside. Yet when you actually watch, he was hitting consistently. Even early in his career. So what are they talking about? Of course it would have been nice if he hit some big ones in the 84 finals. Those are the moments people remember. But it's not as if he hit them any better in 85 than he did in 84. In other key areas, he and the team were more focused and improved collectively.
Was Jordan overrated defensively? I'd say yes. A guy can be really good and overrated at the same time. For example, Kareem's skyhook is a bit overrated. As brilliant as it was, it wasn't quite as automatic as people tell it today. It has caused people to overlook his ability to get easy layups and dunks, which are the reasons why his FG%'s were so high.
Was Jordan better than Bryant defensively? I'd also say yes. Placed in the same era, I think he'd be ranked higher. _________________ Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
Curry ISN"T a SG he is a POINT GUARD. If he continues to play like he has the last 2-3 years he will enter the discussion for the best PG's in history.
He came out as a SG and is now a combo guard. His passing has gotten much better each year. But make no mistake, he is special.
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 Posts: 6938 Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject:
cthroatgtr wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
You can't win the MVP unless your team has either the best or second best record in conference.... it's always been like this or else MJ would have won tons of MVPs in the late 80s when he was scoring 30+ every season on 50%+ shooting every season. Heck, his best statistical season was 1986-1987 when he averaged 37,1 points per game. But the Bulls were just an average playoff team back then and not true contenders...
So Kobe not winning it in the years the Lakers were mediocre is absolutely understandable. He shouldn't have. He was the best individual player in the game without a doubt. But the MVP is as much about team achievement as it is individual achievement.
Media changes the rules to how they vote whenever it suits them. Many left Kobe off their ballot that year and he finished 4th with the "team wasn't good enough". A few years later Wade had a similar team and he averaged I believe 30ppg and finished 2nd.
It really should be "outstanding player" instead of MVP. You really can't pick an MVP as what teams require is different depending on players. PG & QB's always have the edge because they pass. Further media has no business voting anyways.
Finishing 2nd or 10th makes no difference... at least to me. All i know is that the MVP has always rewarded the best player on one of the better teams in the league. As far as i can remember, it's never gone to a player on a fringe team.
I mean Michael Jordan got his first MVP at the age of 28. If he couldn't get the MVP being on a fringe team with his stats... nobody can in the modern era.
I'm a huge Kobe fan but if Curry keeps playing like he did this year, he will enter the discussion as the best 2 guard in history. He's already the best shooter I have ever seen ... by far. Yes, he lacks the athleticism of Kobe or MJ but his offensive skills, while different, are uniquely on par with those 2. I drooled over him when he was in college and haven't seen anything like him until I watched Russell this year. I hope we don't regret passing on him. I know this is blasphemous to state on a Laker forum but I calls em like I sees em. Now let the attacks begin.
Curry ISN"T a SG he is a POINT GUARD. If he continues to play like he has the last 2-3 years he will enter the discussion for the best PG's in history.
He came out as a SG and is now a combo guard. His passing has gotten much better each year. But make no mistake, he is special.
He's been a point guard for 4 years now and has played his best as a PG therefore he is a PG not an SG.
As a guy that hates Harden and his "style", I have to admit that aside from that absolutely idiotic decision to pass up the shot and pass it to Dwight for the last shot, he has been a beast since that 4th quarter benching vs the Clippers.
He panicked in that situation though which isn't something an MVP type player should do but Lebron has done that at least a couple times for each of his trophies...
Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Kobe Volt: Curry made the MVP runner-up look bad, but Kobe...
SuperboyReformed wrote:
It was great to see the MVP and MVP runner-up involved in a last second tussle during a competitive playoff game. And it was fascinating to see the MVP get the better of the runner up, when Curry and Thompson stole the ball from Harden. It was very poetic and all that, and fitting. I'm much more of a Curry fan than Harden, because he relies more on skill than gimmicks such as flopping and creating contact.
But, it also reminded me of sort of the opposite situation a few years ago. When Kobe was having his great 35 ppg scoring year, he lost the controversial MVP to the winner Steve Nash. And a few days after the MVP was revealed (the day after, i think), Kobe dunked (lipton tea-B style) on Nash. And it was remarkable and freaking awesome, a signature moment. There was the MVP getting dunked ON by the runner up. I remember at the time thinking that I can't remember such a dramatic moment like that between the top two MVP candidates.
And it just goes to show again....Kobe is the best I've ever seen. No matter what the stats say, or the awards, he will make that statement on the court. And that's pure skill and tenacity. No gimmicks, no shortcuts.
So just reminiscing. it was a great moment yesterday, and it reminded me of one of the most unique moments I've ever seen in the Kobe/Nash play.
Here's Harden showing why he's the runner up:
Here's Harden getting mad about it. he knows that was a special moment:
And here's Kobe doing what Harden wished he did:
I hope GS makes it to the Finals, and I hope Curry does the same to Lebron if he's there. Bam!
funny stuff. harden tearing up the stuff backstage. lol ...hee hee. thats what you get mr flops.
But what i noticed watching the vids above is, that neither curry nor harden are being guarded like kobe use to be guarded back in say 2006.
This is the biggest difference when they attempt to compare anyone from this era to anyone from that kobe era or prior. There's no comparison. Now i do believe super curry would be fantastic in any era due to his superior footwork, shooting ability, and "I aint scared" attitude. The reason harden was "cookin" is because you are afraid to breath on the guy, this makes defenders guard him differently then any other player. even down the stretch. you're afraid of sending him to the line with a touch foul. Imagine if he didnt get most of those bad calls. Harden would still be a darn good player with the same handles, step back. but when he makes that move more guys would be closer to him due to the fact they would not be afraid of getting hit with a fake foul. That could change if harden's jumper goes in or not. You've seen the times when he doesnt get that call. He looks like a mere mortal out there. Harden's super power is inside of bogus fouls. Where as kobe's in within his skills. But that can be said for a lot of this era guys. Not saying they are not very very good. Just stating the facts.
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