I think Magic/Bird/Russ/Wilt/Cap are all senile choices above Kobe. There is Jordan, then there is Kobe. Then there is everyone else. You can dunk my head in water and put my body in fire but you will never convince me or my eyes otherwise.
Lebron is NOT a top 10 player for sure. Oscar Robertson was much better than he is!
Lebron is clearly a top 10 player already. Clearly. No doubt.
He's top 5, already, imo.
Some people think Lebron is in the top 10 already, some think he isn't.
Don't think we are close to a consensus on that one yet.
And considering he's in the middle of his career, he could still rise ... or fall.
There's no way I could put a guy in my top 10 with the piss-poor footwork that he has, his suspect jump shot, his chronic traveling and a known flopper. Unless he's bullying his way to the basket he's useless. Top 10 players can put a team on their backs and guide them to a champoinship. Lebron can't and has never done that. Combine that with him being a mental midget and I can't see how anybody could mention him in the same sentence as the all-time greats! I've seen just about all those guys that most people put in their top 10 and IMO only Kobe and Duncan belong on that list of all the players in the last 20 years...period!
I don't share your opinion. If Lebron is not yet in the top 10, he's just a little outside it. Hard for me to see anyone putting him much below 13th or so, and he's a reasonable entry into the top 10 right now in my opinion.
In terms of guys who have played in the last 20 years, MJ is a no-brainer for the list. And I'd say Shaq is just as deserving as either Kobe or Duncan. Hakeem is another guy who has played in the last 20 years who I think is a reasonable entry.
It's ok to disagree. We're just giving our opinions. I was referring to players who have been drafted in the last 20 years. MJ and Hakeem are no-brainers for me as well. However, I don't have Shaq in my top 10.
In no particular order:
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Wilt
Russel
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
Kareem
West
And for #10 I could go with either Baylor or O. Robertson
And I know Baylor never won a championship, so if we're going to go by those standards I could swap him with Dr. J and not feel bad about it.
And I know we love to bash Lebron here, but I'd really like to hear someone tell me why they think he's better than Dr. J.
And I know we love to bash Lebron here, but I'd really like to hear someone tell me why they think he's better than Dr. J.
A Lebron vs. Dr. J discussion isn't of interest to me, so I'll simply say this:
Dr. J usually doesn't get on the top 10 list because his greatest accomplishments were in the ABA, and people aren't sure how to weigh what happened in that league.
If you added his ABA accomplishments (3 MVPs and two rings) to his NBA accomplishments, he'd be in the thick of the GOAT discussion, but most people don't think ABA accomplishments are equal to NBA accomplishments.
Lebron is NOT a top 10 player for sure. Oscar Robertson was much better than he is!
Lebron is clearly a top 10 player already. Clearly. No doubt.
He's top 5, already, imo.
Some people think Lebron is in the top 10 already, some think he isn't.
Don't think we are close to a consensus on that one yet.
And considering he's in the middle of his career, he could still rise ... or fall.
There's no way I could put a guy in my top 10 with the piss-poor footwork that he has, his suspect jump shot, his chronic traveling and a known flopper. Unless he's bullying his way to the basket he's useless. Top 10 players can put a team on their backs and guide them to a champoinship. Lebron can't and has never done that. Combine that with him being a mental midget and I can't see how anybody could mention him in the same sentence as the all-time greats! I've seen just about all those guys that most people put in their top 10 and IMO only Kobe and Duncan belong on that list of all the players in the last 20 years...period!
Lebrons jump shot fell off this year, but he's had a consistently great one throughout his career. So, pre-2014-15 season.
As far as him not being able to put a team on his back, what a joke. Did you not watch the 3rd and 4th quarter of the Heat/Spurs game 6 in 2013? He singlehandedly brought his team back from down 10. What about his 25 points in a row against the Pistons in 07? On an awful Cavs squad that your boy Kobe wouldn't have taken past the first round. Him being a mental midget? And Kobe going 20/150 on buzzer beaters doesn't qualify him being a mental midget? Lebron's only "mental midget" moment was the 2011 finals. Stay uneducated.
Lebron averages more points on less shots, more assists on less turnovers, more rebounds, already has 2 finals MVPs at age 30, and will clearly surpass Kobe in that, and probably the overall rings argument too.
Oh, and he's got pretty great footwork sometimes. He had an overall bad year this year and his footwork and jumpshot definitely suffered. Still been the best in the game for 9 years in a row. Kobe was never the best in the league. Ever.
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: what players are "no brainers" in your top 10?
activeverb wrote:
nomoreshaq wrote:
jordan (6 rings, highest PPG ever, stats and accolades galore)
magic (5 rings, best PG ever, greatest team leader ever)
kareem (6 rings, career leader in points period, unstoppable shot)
wilt (2 rings, best stats ever, most dominant period)
bird (3 rings, best shooter, ultimate competitor)
kobe (5 rings, longevity, 2nd best SG ever, most insane competitor ever)
duncan (5 rings, longevity, hands down best PF ever)
russell (a champions champion, 11 rings (?))
Those 8 guys and Shaq are virtually on everyone's top 10 list.
The 10th guy is generally either Hakeem or Lebron. Oscar used to be on the list, but he seems to have dropped off it.
The question really isn't who the top 10 are, since there isn't much disagreement about that; it's the exact ordering of the top 10
I pretty much agree, but I would drop Bird out of top 10 and put LeBron in top 10. Shaq and Hakeem also. To me, all those guys were overall better than Bird...Hakeem might be debatable but to me LeBron and Shaq are clearly ahead of him. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: what players are "no brainers" in your top 10?
nomoreshaq wrote:
jordan (6 rings, highest PPG ever, stats and accolades galore)
magic (5 rings, best PG ever, greatest team leader ever)
kareem (6 rings, career leader in points period, unstoppable shot)
wilt (2 rings, best stats ever, most dominant period)
bird (3 rings, best shooter, ultimate competitor)
kobe (5 rings, longevity, 2nd best SG ever, most insane competitor ever)
duncan (5 rings, longevity, hands down best PF ever)
russell (a champions champion, 11 rings (?))
let me replace duncan with hakeem. best non 7 foot center ever.
if hakeem was allowed to play PF like timmy did a lot of his career. he would be the best pf ever, assuming he had teammates as good as duncans.
The fact i saw hakeem take a team with no other stars on it to the promised land. i knew then he was top 10.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject:
cocacolacream wrote:
One of these players is not like the others. Kobe doesn't belong in the top 10.
Wait, it was KOBE ActiveVerb was saying didn't belong on my list? If not Shaq, I would have assumed he meant Olajuwon. Wow. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:30 am Post subject:
Pro basketball greatness at the highest level is era-specific and related to game mastery, MVP wins and contention, and championships. Without going back to pre-1960, I've got eleven:
Russell
Chamberlain
Kareem
Erving
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
To me, Kobe is one just on the borderline. Just missing that cut, I have Robertson, West, M-Malone, Hakeem, Shaq.
Pro basketball greatness at the highest level is era-specific and related to game mastery, MVP wins and contention, and championships. Without going back to pre-1960, I've got eleven:
Russell
Chamberlain
Kareem
Erving
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
To me, Kobe is one just on the borderline. Just missing that cut, I have Robertson, West, M-Malone, Hakeem, Shaq.
Which is code for "I just don't like his personality." _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Posts: 4330 Location: Meeting the man who met Andy Griffith.
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:10 am Post subject:
Bryant
Johnson
Olajuwon
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Bird
Jordan
Ellis
Miller
That's only 9. I can't think of anyone who meets my expectations to fill in the remaining spot. Maybe Oakley. _________________ "The best there is. The best there was. The best there ever will be.", said Bret Hart regarding the Los Angeles Lakers.
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:49 am Post subject:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Wilkes52 wrote:
Pro basketball greatness at the highest level is era-specific and related to game mastery, MVP wins and contention, and championships. Without going back to pre-1960, I've got eleven:
Russell
Chamberlain
Kareem
Erving
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
To me, Kobe is one just on the borderline. Just missing that cut, I have Robertson, West, M-Malone, Hakeem, Shaq.
Which is code for "I just don't like his personality."
Riiiight. Let's see, he's the second best shooting guard in my top ten, and your feeling are hurt. Get over it.
Pro basketball greatness at the highest level is era-specific and related to game mastery, MVP wins and contention, and championships. Without going back to pre-1960, I've got eleven:
Russell
Chamberlain
Kareem
Erving
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
To me, Kobe is one just on the borderline. Just missing that cut, I have Robertson, West, M-Malone, Hakeem, Shaq.
Which is code for "I just don't like his personality."
Riiiight. Let's see, he's the second best shooting guard in my top ten, and your feeling are hurt. Get over it.
Deflect much? _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
1. Smush Parker - Not the best talent, but best overall talent _________________ How can I get a copy of a Laker game played on Sunday, March 11, 2001 Sonics/Lakers? If you know PM me please
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:59 am Post subject:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Wilkes52 wrote:
KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
Wilkes52 wrote:
Pro basketball greatness at the highest level is era-specific and related to game mastery, MVP wins and contention, and championships. Without going back to pre-1960, I've got eleven:
Russell
Chamberlain
Kareem
Erving
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
To me, Kobe is one just on the borderline. Just missing that cut, I have Robertson, West, M-Malone, Hakeem, Shaq.
Which is code for "I just don't like his personality."
Riiiight. Let's see, he's the second best shooting guard in my top ten, and your feeling are hurt. Get over it.
Deflect much?
It's remarkable. You changed the direction and tone first and then accuse me. Know thyself.
Every other post in this thread makes my anger levels go up.
Kobe is a borderline case? if Kobe is borderline, so is MJ. Ridiculous.
Take Duncan and especially lebron off that list.
Duncan is not a top 10. If kobe is borderline, Duncan is top 20 borderline. If you ignore his BS "listed" position and compare him to all the other 7 footers, he may not even be a top 10 big man.
nomoreshaq's list and description is perfect for this thread:
Quote:
jordan (6 rings, highest PPG ever, stats and accolades galore)
magic (5 rings, best PG ever, greatest team leader ever)
kareem (6 rings, career leader in points period, unstoppable shot)
wilt (2 rings, best stats ever, most dominant period)
bird (3 rings, best shooter, ultimate competitor)
kobe (5 rings, longevity, 2nd best SG ever, most insane competitor ever)
deleted duncan, 2nd tier all time for big men.
russell (a champions champion, 11 rings (?))
even though i wouldn't feel comfortable adding them personally because i don't have enough video of them... i might add:
pistol pete [no accolades, bad team, way ahead of his time, passed like magic, scored like jordan]
oscar robertson [no video, everyone who saw him says he was the best]
and probably a bunch of other stars pre-80s.
i look at this list, wilt and kareem stand out the most. The more I think about it, the more crazy it is for me that people think MJ is GOAT over these two. And this is the annoying thing about Duncan...pit him 1on1 vs those guys, he would get destroyed!!! power forward my foot. what a great gimmick he's had for his career...just change his title from C to PF, and now he's the greatest of all time. You know Wilt led the league in assists, so he's the greatest PG of all time. Same thing. What PG can lead the league in assists, and still average 22 rebounds a game for his career and also have the highest scoring avg in history by far? Greatest PG ever.
For me, the absolute no brainers are Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem. That's it. That's my mount Rushmore. There is no way to me someone can argue that there are 10 players better than any of those guys. They all won in college. They all have multiple MVPs and have enough rings to fill out one hand.
The next tier consists of a lot of guys who are in almost all top 10s but an argument could be made that they shouldn't be: Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar Robertson, Hakeem, Shaq. These guys are all in a lot of top 10s but I think you can argue any individual here is 11th behind 10 guys. This makes them not locks for the top 10 imo.
I thought hard about putting Bird, Wilt, and Duncan into the first tier but I think you could make a case for each being number 11.
Hakeem is 11 and Shaq 12 for me btw. The other guys are in my top 10.
For me, the absolute no brainers are Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem. That's it. That's my mount Rushmore. There is no way to me someone can argue that there are 10 players better than any of those guys. They all won in college. They all have multiple MVPs and have enough rings to fill out one hand.
The next tier consists of a lot of guys who are in almost all top 10s but an argument could be made that they shouldn't be: Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar Robertson, Hakeem, Shaq. These guys are all in a lot of top 10s but I think you can argue any individual here is 11th behind 10 guys. This makes them not locks for the top 10 imo.
I thought hard about putting Bird, Wilt???, and Duncan into the first tier but I think you could make a case for each being number 11.
Hakeem is 11 and Shaq 12 for me btw. The other guys are in my top 10.
u r nutz.
you're lumping Wilt with Bird and Duncan. geezus.
For me, the absolute no brainers are Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem. That's it. That's my mount Rushmore. There is no way to me someone can argue that there are 10 players better than any of those guys. They all won in college. They all have multiple MVPs and have enough rings to fill out one hand.
The next tier consists of a lot of guys who are in almost all top 10s but an argument could be made that they shouldn't be: Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar Robertson, Hakeem, Shaq. These guys are all in a lot of top 10s but I think you can argue any individual here is 11th behind 10 guys. This makes them not locks for the top 10 imo.
I thought hard about putting Bird, Wilt???, and Duncan into the first tier but I think you could make a case for each being number 11.
Hakeem is 11 and Shaq 12 for me btw. The other guys are in my top 10.
u r nutz.
you're lumping Wilt with Bird and Duncan. geezus.
you're not nice. I'd respond better but it's unclear if you think Wilt should be in the first group or the second. I think for a lot of people Wilt's stats are so incredible that he's a lock in the top 10. I think a case could be made though that his stats were empty and he didn't win enough. That, combined with the greatness of the other players I mentioned, does not quite make him a lock for the top 10.
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