Gasol or Pip?
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Who was the better player or had the better career, PGasol or Pip?
Gasol
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 12%  [ 5 ]
Pippen
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 87%  [ 34 ]
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:32 am    Post subject: Gasol or Pip?

Since we are comparing, and I recently had a discussion that involved MJ that morphed into Pippen, that when looking at his career, for some reason, I asked myself this question.

I can see it both ways.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject:

I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject:

If Kobe had Pippen it would have gameover for the league for a lot longer post-Shaq.

Imagine a guy that Kobe can play off of to get entry passes or whatever in his sweet spots.

I've been watching those championship games from 1996 onward, and it's amazing how many easy looks Jordan gets because of how precise and good of a passer Pippen is.

Instead Kobe had to play both roles and thus make it harder on himself.

Having a guy like Pippen on his team, would have extended Kobe's prime a bit longer, IMO.
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Last edited by Gwyn on Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:41 am    Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:
I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player


No.

Anyway, I think Pippen clearly had the better career. I think he was the better player as well. However, when Pau was on his game, his output and impact was as great as Pippen's ever was.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player


No.

Anyway, I think Pippen clearly had the better career. I think he was the better player as well. However, when Pau was on his game, his output and impact was as great as Pippen's ever was.


No, Pau was a good offensive player, but he never created like Pippen did in critical situations for others or himself. Nor did he possess the defensive ability of Pippen.

Pippen played both ends.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:53 am    Post subject:

Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject:

Gwyn wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player


No.

Anyway, I think Pippen clearly had the better career. I think he was the better player as well. However, when Pau was on his game, his output and impact was as great as Pippen's ever was.


No, Pau was a good offensive player, but he never created like Pippen did in critical situations for others or himself. Nor did he possess the defensive ability of Pippen.

Pippen played both ends.


Well, you're pretty wrong on that. I am not going to go through and pull every game from that period, but even the most ardent Pau haters have to admit that Pau was excellent on either end during our championship run. Not every game - not even every quarter - but he was outstanding (often at home) when we needed him to be. Game-ending blocks (see: Ray Allen); big rebounds (Game 7; Game 6 @ OKC); excellent offensive balance (see Utah; against Phoenix).

Note, I never said he had the "defensive ability" of Pippen. But his impact - at the center position - was big when we needed it those three or so years. And to say he "never created" in critical situations is pretty unfair. No, I can't find a clip of Pau getting a game-winning assist, but Pau's ability to create is well-documented. I mean, do you think the knock on him being too selfless was just made up?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:12 am    Post subject:

Pippen and it's not even (bleep) close.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player


No.

Anyway, I think Pippen clearly had the better career. I think he was the better player as well. However, when Pau was on his game, his output and impact was as great as Pippen's ever was.


I have never extended my lists (imaginary or otherwise) past about 30, but Pippen is not even in my top 30, nor even a consideration. He might be in the 40 - 50 range for me or he might be much higher when looking at all who have played the game.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.


Every time I see you in one of these discussions, it seems like you're always making a case against the use of advanced stats. Is that your intention?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player


No.

Anyway, I think Pippen clearly had the better career. I think he was the better player as well. However, when Pau was on his game, his output and impact was as great as Pippen's ever was.


I have never extended my lists (imaginary or otherwise) past about 30, but Pippen is not even in my top 30, nor even a consideration. He might be in the 40 - 50 range for me or he might be much higher when looking at all who have played the game.


Yeah. I think the only top 10 conversations Pippen is in are: defense, being upset with your coach, knocking towels down, posterizing Ewing, getting crossed by Kobe, and fall from rich to bankrupt. Oh, and I guess Small Forward and Best Robin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.


Every time I see you in one of these discussions, it seems like you're always making a case against the use of advanced stats. Is that your intention?


I suspect this is sarcasm. Stats aren't the answer but they offer something less subjective than, I believe! If you think you have better measures, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject:

Chronicle wrote:
I think Scottie is in the conversation of being a top 10 all time player


Just stop.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.


Every time I see you in one of these discussions, it seems like you're always making a case against the use of advanced stats. Is that your intention?


I suspect this is sarcasm. Stats aren't the answer but they offer something less subjective than, I believe! If you think you have better measures, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.


Yeah, it's called watching the game.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:39 am    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.


Every time I see you in one of these discussions, it seems like you're always making a case against the use of advanced stats. Is that your intention?


I suspect this is sarcasm. Stats aren't the answer but they offer something less subjective than, I believe! If you think you have better measures, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.


Yeah, it's called watching the game.


So, you are going to tell me that you watched all, or some significant portion, of Pippen's games as well as Gasol's, and you were focused exclusively on those players (which, hopefully, the camera was obliging), you have perfect recall ta boot, and not a spec of subjectivity to sway your view?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.


Every time I see you in one of these discussions, it seems like you're always making a case against the use of advanced stats. Is that your intention?


I suspect this is sarcasm. Stats aren't the answer but they offer something less subjective than, I believe! If you think you have better measures, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.


Yeah, it's called watching the game.


So, you are going to tell me that you watched all, or some significant portion, of Pippen's games as well as Gasol's, and you were focused exclusively on those players (which, hopefully, the camera was obliging), you have perfect recall ta boot, and not a spec of subjectivity to sway your view?


Of course I've seen both play, I wouldn't be posting in this thread otherwise.

What subjectivity? Pau was a Laker, Pippen was a Bull. I'm a Lakers fan. Pippen was miles better than Pau. That is obvious to anyone who actually watched both play.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 am    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Pip's PER of 18.6 and 18.4 (post season) and his peak season of 23.2 and 22.8; and his WS/148 of .146 and .140, and .209/.197 peak

are all lower than

Pau's PER of 21.6 and 20.7 (post season) and his peak season of 24.1 and 24.0; and his WS/148 of .170 and .161 and .232/.224 peak.


Every time I see you in one of these discussions, it seems like you're always making a case against the use of advanced stats. Is that your intention?


I suspect this is sarcasm. Stats aren't the answer but they offer something less subjective than, I believe! If you think you have better measures, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.


Yeah, it's called watching the game.


So, you are going to tell me that you watched all, or some significant portion, of Pippen's games as well as Gasol's, and you were focused exclusively on those players (which, hopefully, the camera was obliging), you have perfect recall ta boot, and not a spec of subjectivity to sway your view?


Of course I've seen both play, I wouldn't be posting in this thread otherwise.

What subjectivity? Pau was a Laker, Pippen was a Bull. I'm a Lakers fan. Pippen was miles better than Pau. That is obvious to anyone who actually watched both play.


I think there is more depth to the discussion than, "Pau was a Laker, Pippen was a Bull," but I won't digress.

I simply don't agree that Pippen was miles better than Pau. I still see an argument for both. Pau was beyond solid in his Memphis years, quite awesome in his first four years with the Lakers years, and was darn near as good last season. The stats simply back this up. After Jordan left, Pippen, with two other All-Stars and Jax, managed to go from a 15 win playoff season to a 6 win season, and he never scored more than 14.5 points a game after Jordan retired.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:40 am    Post subject:

Pippen was better defensively than Pau. Pippen was probably the best defender in the league for a long stretch of time, Jordan gets the credit but Pippen was doing the dirty work. Putting him on Magic Johnson is what beat us in the finals.

He also ran the offense, and ran it well.

Next to Kobe, he is probably the best "sidekick" player on a championship team.

Pau is better in the post, and a better rebounder. Pippen was still a good rebounder for his position and perimeter shooting is the only question mark I have for his game.

I have Pippen heading up my list of underrated players of all time. Pau is underrated too, I believe, but Pippen was phenomenal, he was one of (if not the only) players who could effectively guard Jordan, with his combination of length, strength, and quick feet.

Vernon Maxwell guarded Jordan well, Jordan has even said as much, and Pippen is similar to him athletically while being longer, and a lot more consistent of a defender.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:27 pm    Post subject:

Shlumpledink wrote:
Pippen was better defensively than Pau. Pippen was probably the best defender in the league for a long stretch of time, Jordan gets the credit but Pippen was doing the dirty work. Putting him on Magic Johnson is what beat us in the finals.

Pip did a good job there's no denying, but Scott's injury, and then Worthy's were more a factor. Magic was 18.6/8.0/12.4, about his average, but his FG% was subpar at 43%. Still he only shot 44% for the entire playoffs.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject:

I'd go with Pippen as the better player, but it's close. Pippen defined his career in the '94 playoffs (the Kukoc incident) as far as I'm concerned. His post-MJ career was uninspiring. Despite all of that, I'd give him a slim edge over Pau.

For better career, it's Pippen and not close. Six rings as the #2 guy on the team vs. two rings as the #2 guy on the team. More accolades, though some of that is due to the halo effect. Comparable stats, but he was an elite defender and Pau was not.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject:

As a second option: Pippen

As a first option: tie

defensively: Pippen

offensively: Pau

career: Pippen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:14 pm    Post subject:

Typically, Scottie is ranked anywhere from the high 20s to low 30s. So he's probably considered about the 30th best player of all time.

Gasol is harder to gauge because his career is still happening and he's still playing well. In the past, I've seen him ranked in the 50-60s, but his career is still going strong and he's probably moved up in people's minds.

I'd put Scottie ahead of Gasol. But I think it's reasonable to consider them more or less in the same tier, though some people would put Pippen one tier above Pau.

Pippen has the benefit of the halo effect from the Bulls six rings. The negative for him is he didn't make quite the impact in Houston and Portland that you would have expected.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject:

Shlumpledink wrote:
Next to Kobe, he is probably the best "sidekick" player on a championship team.


Trivial question:

Name the 7 NBA championship teams that started two guys who each won an MVP in some season (can only name each duo once, so Shaq/Kobe count once, not for three rings).

Bonus question:

Name the 2 ring teams that had 3 Hall of Famers on the roster? (One of the 2 is a trick question).

Answers will be posted later.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:32 pm    Post subject:

I like Pau, but Pippen's career was better.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject:

No doubt Scottie had a better career when you look at the numbers and results.

Better player? That's a little tougher for me. They are two different guys who bring different things - and I don't like Pippen and like Pau a great deal. I guess it comes down to if I am picking one or the other to round out my 5 players on a team, it'd be Pippen - as much as it pains me to say it.
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