Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject:
shnxx wrote:
he does that bunny hop and crab walk every single time.
he also pushes off more than anyone I have ever seen? Forearm shivers all game long. No calls go against him and he fouls the opposition at least 5-10 times a game doing it. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
The guy who coached Michael Jordan is complaining about individualism in basketball. Interesting.
He's been saying this for 5 years now. Even when he was Laker coach he was saying it.
90 percent of teams in the league run S/R and 1 on 1 from the perimeter to create their offense or to start it.
When Phil left in 2004, Rudy came in. Most Laker fans despised Rudy's offense and type of offense. Yet years later, now everyone wants that O.
It's just the wave - it's in now. No problem in accepting that it's a successful way to play right now considering the talent. However, he is absolutely right that it isn't very entertaining and it isn't team oriented. How LBJ got to the Finals was appalling from an O stand point.
BTW, the beauty of the Warriors offense is they have multiple playmakers. Green, Iggy and Thompson all make plays - not just Curry. And Curry switches from PG/SG often. He's not just a pound the ball for 20 seconds, run S/R and dominate the ball type of PG. That's why I thoroughly enjoyed Curry's game and their run vs despising how Chris Paul plays for the Clippers.
traveling
carrying
offensive push offs by dribblers and screeners
no boxing out (guys just hold alot)
few who can hit a 10-20 footer consistently
no bounce passing
no post game
and on and on
terrible defense
the game has changed and I don't like a lot of what I see
The guy who coached Michael Jordan is complaining about individualism in basketball. Interesting.
the guy brought the triangle to Michael Jordan. that pretty much countered Jordan's selfish play. it also helped Kobe and Shaq.
all these players don't travel as much, and as blatantly as Lebron James. it's one of the games fundamentals that Lebron didn't care to learn _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
traveling
carrying
offensive push offs by dribblers and screeners
no boxing out (guys just hold alot)
few who can hit a 10-20 footer consistently
no bounce passing
no post game
and on and on
terrible defense
the game has changed and I don't like a lot of what I see
That's the nature of the NBA. For at least 35 years, they have made constant changes to open up the game and make it easier for offensive players. People often complain about how the changes are corrupting the game, and predict how the sport is about to collapse, but interest in the league just grows and grows and grows.
I know the conversation is traveling. I remember how shocked I was in the 1990s when they started allowing guys to take those leap steps -- I had trouble watching the games for a bit because it seemed like everyone was traveling on every play. But I got used to it and then it became the norm.
Every so often, it swings a little too far, and they make some more tweaks to bring it back.
traveling
carrying
offensive push offs by dribblers and screeners
no boxing out (guys just hold alot)
few who can hit a 10-20 footer consistently
no bounce passing
no post game
and on and on
terrible defense
the game has changed and I don't like a lot of what I see
That's the nature of the NBA. For at least 35 years, they have made constant changes to open up the game and make it easier for offensive players. People often complain about how the changes are corrupting the game, and predict how the sport is about to collapse, but interest in the league just grows and grows and grows.
I know the conversation is traveling. I remember how shocked I was in the 1990s when they started allowing guys to take those leap steps -- I had trouble watching the games for a bit because it seemed like everyone was traveling on every play. But I got used to it and then it became the norm.
Every so often, it swings a little too far, and they make some more tweaks to bring it back.
Honestly I think the game is what the league wants it to be. You are right as long as they keep making money or growing the game as some like to call it most of this stuff will continue. It's sad when I see kids who have better fundamentals than pro players. There's a reason I admire guys like Duncan and Kobe. Their skills are so pure and so rare.
traveling
carrying
offensive push offs by dribblers and screeners
no boxing out (guys just hold alot)
few who can hit a 10-20 footer consistently
no bounce passing
no post game
and on and on
terrible defense
the game has changed and I don't like a lot of what I see
That's the nature of the NBA. For at least 35 years, they have made constant changes to open up the game and make it easier for offensive players. People often complain about how the changes are corrupting the game, and predict how the sport is about to collapse, but interest in the league just grows and grows and grows.
I know the conversation is traveling. I remember how shocked I was in the 1990s when they started allowing guys to take those leap steps -- I had trouble watching the games for a bit because it seemed like everyone was traveling on every play. But I got used to it and then it became the norm.
Every so often, it swings a little too far, and they make some more tweaks to bring it back.
Honestly I think the game is what the league wants it to be. You are right as long as they keep making money or growing the game as some like to call it most of this stuff will continue. It's sad when I see kids who have better fundamentals than pro players. There's a reason I admire guys like Duncan and Kobe. Their skills are so pure and so rare.
I'd say the game is as the fans want it to be. The league is going to give us whatever we want to see most. And people would rather see flashy plays than fundamentals, so the league will loosen the rules to let plays be flashier.
"I watch LeBron James, for example," he said. "He might [travel] every other time he catches the basketball if he's off the ball. He catches the ball, moves both his feet. You see it happen all the time. There's no structure, there's no discipline, there's no 'How do we play this game' type of attitude. And it goes all the way through the game. To the point where now guys don't screen—they push guys off with their hands."
......
What Jackson did talk about at length was his belief in "a structure" or "a format" that involves all five players and emphasizes ball and player movement, whether it's the triangle or another system. He cited the Spurs and Warriors and Hawks as teams that exemplified the ideal.
But he disdains much of what he sees: an endless series of pick-and-roll plays, one setting up the next, until someone gets a layup or a three-pointer.
"The game actually has some beauty to it, and we've kind of taken some of that out of it to make it individualized," Jackson said. "It's a lot of who we are as a country, individualized stuff."
Indeed, Jackson seems much less concerned with validating the triangle than with the state of the game itself.
"When I watch some of these playoff games, and I look at what's being run out there, as what people call an offense, it's really quite remarkable to see how far our game has fallen from a team game," Jackson said. "Four guys stand around watching one guy dribble a basketball."
Lebron travels based on the old criteria, but everyone does these days. The NBA loosened the rules to make the game more exciting. Heck, does Phil really think Carmelo Anthony doesn't travel based on the old criteria? Guys will always take whatever the refs give them.
I didn't see where Phil was making excuses for Carmelo Anthony. _________________ I'm like a Hadouken, down-right Fierce!
traveling
carrying
offensive push offs by dribblers and screeners
no boxing out (guys just hold alot)
few who can hit a 10-20 footer consistently
no bounce passing
no post game
and on and on
terrible defense
the game has changed and I don't like a lot of what I see
That's the nature of the NBA. For at least 35 years, they have made constant changes to open up the game and make it easier for offensive players. People often complain about how the changes are corrupting the game, and predict how the sport is about to collapse, but interest in the league just grows and grows and grows.
I know the conversation is traveling. I remember how shocked I was in the 1990s when they started allowing guys to take those leap steps -- I had trouble watching the games for a bit because it seemed like everyone was traveling on every play. But I got used to it and then it became the norm.
Every so often, it swings a little too far, and they make some more tweaks to bring it back.
Honestly I think the game is what the league wants it to be. You are right as long as they keep making money or growing the game as some like to call it most of this stuff will continue. It's sad when I see kids who have better fundamentals than pro players. There's a reason I admire guys like Duncan and Kobe. Their skills are so pure and so rare.
I'd say the game is as the fans want it to be. The league is going to give us whatever we want to see most. And people would rather see flashy plays than fundamentals, so the league will loosen the rules to let plays be flashier.
This is true, the casual fan doesn't care much about the things I care about. I mean can we at least enforce the rules? Is that too much to ask?
The guy who coached Michael Jordan is complaining about individualism in basketball. Interesting.
He's been saying this for 5 years now. Even when he was Laker coach he was saying it.
90 percent of teams in the league run S/R and 1 on 1 from the perimeter to create their offense or to start it.
When Phil left in 2004, Rudy came in. Most Laker fans despised Rudy's offense and type of offense. Yet years later, now everyone wants that O.
It's just the wave - it's in now. No problem in accepting that it's a successful way to play right now considering the talent. However, he is absolutely right that it isn't very entertaining and it isn't team oriented. How LBJ got to the Finals was appalling from an O stand point.
BTW, the beauty of the Warriors offense is they have multiple playmakers. Green, Iggy and Thompson all make plays - not just Curry. And Curry switches from PG/SG often. He's not just a pound the ball for 20 seconds, run S/R and dominate the ball type of PG. That's why I thoroughly enjoyed Curry's game and their run vs despising how Chris Paul plays for the Clippers.
Rudy T's is literally nothing like the system being run by the Warriors or Spurs.
"I watch LeBron James, for example," he said. "He might [travel] every other time he catches the basketball if he's off the ball. He catches the ball, moves both his feet. You see it happen all the time. There's no structure, there's no discipline, there's no 'How do we play this game' type of attitude. And it goes all the way through the game. To the point where now guys don't screen—they push guys off with their hands."
This is true, the casual fan doesn't care much about the things I care about. I mean can we at least enforce the rules? Is that too much to ask?
I long ago accepted the game isn't refereed according to the precise wording in the rule book. All you can expect is a uniform standard of enforcement regarding the type of traveling they allow.
The guy who coached Michael Jordan & Kobe Bryant is complaining about individualism in basketball. Interesting.
Fixed that a little bit for you.
Phil's delusion is nothing short of astounding. He wants props for managing to "get rid of" three guys who were expiring anyway, and went on to contribute for some pretty good teams. Unreal.
"I watch LeBron James, for example," he said. "He might [travel] every other time he catches the basketball if he's off the ball. He catches the ball, moves both his feet. You see it happen all the time. There's no structure, there's no discipline, there's no 'How do we play this game' type of attitude. And it goes all the way through the game. To the point where now guys don't screen—they push guys off with their hands."
......
What Jackson did talk about at length was his belief in "a structure" or "a format" that involves all five players and emphasizes ball and player movement, whether it's the triangle or another system. He cited the Spurs and Warriors and Hawks as teams that exemplified the ideal.
But he disdains much of what he sees: an endless series of pick-and-roll plays, one setting up the next, until someone gets a layup or a three-pointer.
"The game actually has some beauty to it, and we've kind of taken some of that out of it to make it individualized," Jackson said. "It's a lot of who we are as a country, individualized stuff."
Indeed, Jackson seems much less concerned with validating the triangle than with the state of the game itself.
"When I watch some of these playoff games, and I look at what's being run out there, as what people call an offense, it's really quite remarkable to see how far our game has fallen from a team game," Jackson said. "Four guys stand around watching one guy dribble a basketball."
I share his disdain. I would hate it if we went to that type of offense. Spurs do it best. Beautiful basketball. Ball movement, player movement, constant motion. When you have the pieces, you have a virtually unguardable offense.
It's like the league took a single element from the triangle, PnR, and built entire offenses around it. It's simple, and it works(until they meet a team that can play the PnR), but it's not beautiful basketball. It's downright ugly, actually.
How offense should be ran
The amount of passing that goes on is ridiculous. No surprise that it's two of the greatest coaches in NBA history that's on another level of thinking when it comes to offense.
Beautiful stuff the Spurs run indeed. Of course, it is mostly up tempo, 1 in 4 out, spread and attack off the dribble or pick and roll, with very few post ups and almost all of them as secondary actions.
Oh, and the league didn't borrow the pick and roll from the tri. It isn't part of traditional tri sets. Jackson's triangle borrowed it from others, not the other way around.
Which is what Phil would run if he had the Spurs' personnel. The guy has won 11 championships running offenses that were not built in the same way. MJ/Pippen first 3 peat, MJ/Pippen second 3 peat. Kobe/Shaq Lakers. Kobe/Pau Lakers. The Triangle is the most versatile offense, it has everything. The Spurs' system is forged in the principles of the triangle.
1. Penetration.
2. Spacing.
3. Ball and player movement with a purpose.
4. The ball handler must be able to pass to any of his four teammates at any given time.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance.
6. Versatile positioning.
7. Utilizes individual talents.
Just look at the two videos, that's offense with a purpose. Every pass, every movement(whether on ball or off), every screen, they all have a purpose. Funny thing is, the triangle isn't all about post play. That's just the players Phil had, and he morphed his offense around his personnel, which is a sign of good coaching. I know of a coach who simply could not do that.
This is true, the casual fan doesn't care much about the things I care about. I mean can we at least enforce the rules? Is that too much to ask?
I long ago accepted the game isn't refereed according to the precise wording in the rule book. All you can expect is a uniform standard of enforcement regarding the type of traveling they allow.
They've said they're looking for advantage to come from travelling, it's why you'll see someone in the back court with no defender near him take 3 steps before dribbling and they don't call it.
I think what Phil is complaining about is the delayed gather, that was sort of stylized with the eurostep but is now used by most of the young stars. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject:
Quote:
What Jackson did talk about at length was his belief in "a structure" or "a format" that involves all five players and emphasizes ball and player movement, whether it's the triangle or another system. He cited the Spurs and Warriors and Hawks as teams that exemplified the ideal.
But he disdains much of what he sees: an endless series of pick-and-roll plays, one setting up the next, until someone gets a layup or a three-pointer.
So basically, what the Spurs, Warriors, and Hawks do. It takes five guys moving and passing to set up a continuous series of pick and rolls.
"I watch LeBron James, for example," he said. "He might [travel] every other time he catches the basketball if he's off the ball. He catches the ball, moves both his feet. You see it happen all the time. There's no structure, there's no discipline, there's no 'How do we play this game' type of attitude. And it goes all the way through the game. To the point where now guys don't screen—they push guys off with their hands."
......
What Jackson did talk about at length was his belief in "a structure" or "a format" that involves all five players and emphasizes ball and player movement, whether it's the triangle or another system. He cited the Spurs and Warriors and Hawks as teams that exemplified the ideal.
But he disdains much of what he sees: an endless series of pick-and-roll plays, one setting up the next, until someone gets a layup or a three-pointer.
"The game actually has some beauty to it, and we've kind of taken some of that out of it to make it individualized," Jackson said. "It's a lot of who we are as a country, individualized stuff."
Indeed, Jackson seems much less concerned with validating the triangle than with the state of the game itself.
"When I watch some of these playoff games, and I look at what's being run out there, as what people call an offense, it's really quite remarkable to see how far our game has fallen from a team game," Jackson said. "Four guys stand around watching one guy dribble a basketball."
Lebron travels based on the old criteria, but everyone does these days. The NBA loosened the rules to make the game more exciting. Heck, does Phil really think Carmelo Anthony doesn't travel based on the old criteria? Guys will always take whatever the refs give them.
It's true. Verifiable thru game film, actually. Not terribly a subjective take. If you go back to the 80s, even the 2 ref era with 1 fewer ref to see mistakes, they called travelling tight as a snare drum. Slightest bobbles and missteps. Frankly, the way it should be called. If the sh-t is a travel, then it's a travel. I don't think travelling is big enough a deal to just simply stop enforcing it to the nines. Are fans really gonna be that pissed off if it's done consistently? No. We'll get used to almost any rule over time (read: when we get over ourselves...), long as it's consistent. Course, Bron gets what he wants, but truth be told, that call has been slackening more and more with each passing year, back to the 90s. Davo Robinson slid and moved his feet 5x in the playoff gm Nick won with that running 3. Chick and Stu were abhorred. I can't totally lay this'n on Bron, though I'd like to, but he's probably the one superstar who most benefits from it. I think it's just sloppy to ignore sh like that. It instills this idea that it's okay to do whatever you want with the ball and if you get called, yell at the ref. They'll back down.
What Jackson did talk about at length was his belief in "a structure" or "a format" that involves all five players and emphasizes ball and player movement, whether it's the triangle or another system. He cited the Spurs and Warriors and Hawks as teams that exemplified the ideal.
But he disdains much of what he sees: an endless series of pick-and-roll plays, one setting up the next, until someone gets a layup or a three-pointer.
So basically, what the Spurs, Warriors, and Hawks do. It takes five guys moving and passing to set up a continuous series of pick and rolls.
Yep. That's what makes me roll my eyes about so much of the anti-Warriors/Hawks stuff this year. They were remarkable in terms of player and ball movement. The Warriors had the most assists of any team in the last 20 years. Here are the offensive visualizations of the Spurs, Warriors, Hawks, & Knicks.
The Triangle Offense is highly masturbatory. A ton of ball and player movement that doesn't actually lead to open shots. That's survivable when you have the two greatest isolation players in the history of basketball, but it fails miserably pretty much every single time aside from that.
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