so, stephen curry 2.0 is shooting 29% from three, interesting. oh, 68% from the free throw line, cool
Steph Curry 2.0 is Booker not DLO IMO.
Neither will come close to Steph's efficiency. Steph never shot below 41% from 3P in a full season in his NBA career. Booker is career 35.7% 3P shooter so far and DLo 34.8%. _________________ Showtime 2.0
He's had some bad plus minus showings in certain games. Though Mozgov is even worse in that department. They are giving Mozgov a +1.67 DRPM even though he has been a tire fire defensively this year. Some of that must have been allocated away from the other players in his lineup.
Just curious though, why is RPM generally more highly regarded as a stat then, if it has these type of discrepancies?
so, stephen curry 2.0 is shooting 29% from three, interesting. oh, 68% from the free throw line, cool
Steph Curry 2.0 is Booker not DLO IMO.
Booker is no where near Steph 2.0 either lol
There is no Steph 2.0. There is only Steph - he's a truly unique, generational player who had a tangible impact on the way the game is played today, and a surefire HOF'er before the age of 30. You can't easily replicate that kind of player, and that's an understatement. But it's a disservice to any young player to call them Steph 2.0 to begin with, he may be one of a kind for a LONG time.
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:51 pm Post subject:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
tnell wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
so, stephen curry 2.0 is shooting 29% from three, interesting. oh, 68% from the free throw line, cool
Steph Curry 2.0 is Booker not DLO IMO.
Booker is no where near Steph 2.0 either lol
There is no Steph 2.0. There is only Steph - he's a truly unique, generational player who had a tangible impact on the way the game is played today, and a surefire HOF'er before the age of 30. You can't easily replicate that kind of player, and that's an understatement. But it's a disservice to any young player to call them Steph 2.0 to begin with, he may be one of a kind for a LONG time.
He's a lot closer than DLO IMO. His stroke is sweet and he gets so much lift on his jumper. Sure he doesn't play one lick of D, but neither does Curry. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss
so, stephen curry 2.0 is shooting 29% from three, interesting. oh, 68% from the free throw line, cool
Steph Curry 2.0 is Booker not DLO IMO.
Booker is no where near Steph 2.0 either lol
There is no Steph 2.0. There is only Steph - he's a truly unique, generational player who had a tangible impact on the way the game is played today, and a surefire HOF'er before the age of 30. You can't easily replicate that kind of player, and that's an understatement. But it's a disservice to any young player to call them Steph 2.0 to begin with, he may be one of a kind for a LONG time.
He's a lot closer than DLO IMO. His stroke is sweet and he gets so much lift on his jumper. Sure he doesn't play one lick of D, but neither does Curry.
Any reason why RPM hates DLo and DeRozan? Pretty sure DeRozan is the last player Raptors would trade.
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@AndrewDBailey
Raptors' best player in Real Plus-Minus: Kyle Lowry (62nd)
Raptors' worst player in Real Plus-Minus: DeMar DeRozan (334th)
Quote:
@AndrewDBailey
Nets' best player in Real Plus-Minus: DeMarre Carroll (58th)
Nets' worst player in Real Plus-Minus: D'Angelo Russell (307th)
fwiw RPM loved Dlo last year til we started tanking.
It's probably just some genuine signal (the team's been bad defensively with him on the court) and some noise (RPM at this point in the season is not well-calibrated).
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
He's had some bad plus minus showings in certain games. Though Mozgov is even worse in that department. They are giving Mozgov a +1.67 DRPM even though he has been a tire fire defensively this year. Some of that must have been allocated away from the other players in his lineup.
Just curious though, why is RPM generally more highly regarded as a stat then, if it has these type of discrepancies?
None of the all in one stats are really that reliable, and I don't think teams use them all that much. They're more designed to be correct on average rather than in specific comparisons.
This is just my $0.02 based on the numbers and the eye test, but what I found was that the starters, minus Randle (replace Randle with anyone besides Clarkson and the defense went from pretty good to elite), were actually pretty disciplined. Sure, no one is a world beater defensively, though MozDeng were probably above average. But they rotated well enough and they had pretty crazy length at every position besides the 4.
But once Russell and Young went to other more undisciplined lineups, they also started playing more undisciplined. Probably not having Deng and Mozgov to tell them to play defense was a part of it, but also the bench was a lot more freeform on both ends than the starters, which didn't work for especially Russell (who's pretty low energy).
The thing with Russell is that if he were truly that bad defensively (and Deng/ Mozgov just covered him completely), then the drop off from Russell to Calderon wouldn't be ~10 points in DRTG. I realize Calderon is atrocious defensively, but if Russell truly were a sieve, then even Calderon wouldn't be 10 points worse. There was obviously some positive from Russell.
Very good observations, though Calderon wasn't exactly qualified to be an NBA starter. He didn't generate enough offense volume-wise as the initiator, and the ORTG suffered as much as the defense. Making it worse, Calderon faced an uphill challenge.
Noticed 8 of the 9 teams Calderon faced in the 4-man unit with MozDeng and Nick were playoff teams, and the 3-man unit with Jose/Moz/Deng played 8 games in 12 days last November. New Orleans was the only non-playoff team in 13 games Calderon faced with that 3 or 4-man lineup, and Nick got hurt after 2 minutes.
Deng seems to have been the vet who got everyone organized on defense, and several guys with length playing "defense on a string" can help hide a bad defender or maybe two for stretches. But BI/DLo/Zo aren't vets and it would've been the blind leading the blind.
Admittedly, all contracts being equal, would've preferred trading Ingram instead of DLo, moving Lonzo to the 3, and then signing KCP, but that would've been a hard sell to Casey and the Ball camp.
This is just my $0.02 based on the numbers and the eye test, but what I found was that the starters, minus Randle (replace Randle with anyone besides Clarkson and the defense went from pretty good to elite), were actually pretty disciplined. Sure, no one is a world beater defensively, though MozDeng were probably above average. But they rotated well enough and they had pretty crazy length at every position besides the 4.
But once Russell and Young went to other more undisciplined lineups, they also started playing more undisciplined. Probably not having Deng and Mozgov to tell them to play defense was a part of it, but also the bench was a lot more freeform on both ends than the starters, which didn't work for especially Russell (who's pretty low energy).
The thing with Russell is that if he were truly that bad defensively (and Deng/ Mozgov just covered him completely), then the drop off from Russell to Calderon wouldn't be ~10 points in DRTG. I realize Calderon is atrocious defensively, but if Russell truly were a sieve, then even Calderon wouldn't be 10 points worse. There was obviously some positive from Russell.
Very good observations, though Calderon wasn't exactly qualified to be an NBA starter. He didn't generate enough offense volume-wise as the initiator, and the ORTG suffered as much as the defense. Making it worse, Calderon faced an uphill challenge.
Noticed 8 of the 9 teams Calderon faced in the 4-man unit with MozDeng and Nick were playoff teams, and the 3-man unit with Jose/Moz/Deng played 8 games in 12 days last November. New Orleans was the only non-playoff team in 13 games Calderon faced with that 3 or 4-man lineup, and Nick got hurt after 2 minutes.
Deng seems to have been the vet who got everyone organized on defense, and several guys with length playing "defense on a string" can help hide a bad defender or maybe two for stretches. But BI/DLo/Zo aren't vets and it would've been the blind leading the blind.
Admittedly, all contracts being equal, would've preferred trading Ingram instead of DLo, moving Lonzo to the 3, and then signing KCP, but that would've been a hard sell to Casey and the Ball camp.
Good point, I didn't remember those details. IIRC a good chunk of those games were actually on the road too. Would love to adjust these PPP allowed numbers for opponent quality, but I can't be bothered. lol
Overall, though, I agree with a lot of your post. Though idk about the last paragraph.... not really a fan of moving any of the young guys. I'd have been fine just rolling out Ball/ Russell/ Ingram/ Randle/ Moz or whatever, or maybe even Kuz*/ Randle.
*Assuming we actually get him, some of the info is conflicting.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90304 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:19 am Post subject:
I might have even played MozDeng as a short minutes starting 4/5 with randle and Kuzma getting solid minutes behind them (and a guy like bogut when you need more size).
Nance and Clarkson would be my bait for another piece. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
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Wow. Look at how dominant DLo has been defending the P&R, both in the absolute sense and relative to his teammates
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Cranjis McBasketball
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P&R defensive data will have more noise than other categories since it's very much a team effort, but the fact that DLo is SO much better than his teammates in that regard makes this look pretty legit.
Cranjis McBasketball
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Wow. Look at how dominant DLo has been defending the P&R, both in the absolute sense and relative to his teammates
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Cranjis McBasketball
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2h2 hours ago
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Replying to @T1m_NBA
P&R defensive data will have more noise than other categories since it's very much a team effort, but the fact that DLo is SO much better than his teammates in that regard makes this look pretty legit.
I'd like to see his full defensive profile to get a sense of what he's doing to earn such a poor DRPM and Defrtg. I know he'll give up on screens and call for switches a lot (which will likely save him from a few possessions here and there that would hurt his sterling ppp data), but that might be part of Atkinson's defensive plan. His poor DRPM can't all be coming from just poor off-ball awareness, can it?
All in one stats are necessarily imperfect. DRPM seems to favor the bigs and the ORPM the opposite. I think what you are seeing with the contrast between what Cranjis pointed out and the DRPM is that Russells defensive flaws are largely in specific areas and seem to be about focus and recognition. I believe this is part of his learning curve. He is still only starting his third season and I expect he is a year or three away from becoming what he will be.
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Wow. Look at how dominant DLo has been defending the P&R, both in the absolute sense and relative to his teammates
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Cranjis McBasketball
@T1m_NBA
2h2 hours ago
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Replying to @T1m_NBA
P&R defensive data will have more noise than other categories since it's very much a team effort, but the fact that DLo is SO much better than his teammates in that regard makes this look pretty legit.
I'd like to see his full defensive profile to get a sense of what he's doing to earn such a poor DRPM and Defrtg. I know he'll give up on screens and call for switches a lot (which will likely save him from a few possessions here and there that would hurt his sterling ppp data), but that might be part of Atkinson's defensive plan. His poor DRPM can't all be coming from just poor off-ball awareness, can it?
Yeah, I brought up something similar as well. Even if his individual P&R ballhandler stats are sterling, we need to see P&R roll man stats, both PPP allowed and frequency.
We all know P&R roll man is more efficient. So even if Russell is great at P&R ballhandler, if he allows a greater proportion of P&R roll man attempts, his overall P&R defense could be subpar.
This isn't enough information to make any conclusions, and it's one of the reasons I don't like PPP data (I've said as much to Cranjis). As you point out, he also gives up on screens a lot -- I can imagine the consequence of over-switching is more downstream and therefore not reflects in his PPP data.
Cranjis McBasketball
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Here's the full list of NBA players who've had 30+ P&R ball handler defensive possessions this season & have given up fewer points per possession than D'Angelo Russell:
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29257 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject:
What sucks is that it seems like a non-contact injury .
Looks like he made contact with his right knee. But the surgery is on his left according to the NYPost. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I think there should be genuine concern about his knees at this point. It sucks, it's unfortunate, maybe you could even call this one a freak injury, but knee troubles in a player's early years (and this is in the absence of big minutes, too) is always a scary beast.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35809 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject:
It's sort of weird for someone who doesn't really rely on athleticism or jump that high to have so many knee problems. Usually it's athletic players who have them. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
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