OFFICIAL D'ANGELO RUSSELL THREAD....
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anpherknee
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject:

vlonethug wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
CRoost wrote:
LakersChamps04 wrote:
do people believe in "eye tests" any more?

watching the two, imho, booker is better than russel at this point and time in their careers

think of it this way. if you could choose between adding one of the two to your team, which would you choose? right now, i would choose booker and i think many teams in the league would do the same. maybe not every, but the majority.


I prefer Booker and he has a higher ceiling. He is already an elite scorer in his 2nd year and having his Mamba moment to boot. With all that confidence and if the Suns surround him with the right supporting cast, hide him in defense and give him all that greenlight , he will be tearing it up. He is like a scoring assasin because a lot of times he's making it look easy and smooth. DLo can't breakdown defenders like Booker can.

Having said that, I will pick Dlo as a better 2nd or 3rd option. Better passer, better in catch and shoot and a better complimentary player.


So you like scoring over defense, rebounding, and playmaking? If that is your thing then enjoy it, but I prefer the things that win ball games and titles.


Hold on , no team has even sniff the playoff yet.

I just said Booker has a higher ceiling and already an elite scorer and that is why I think he's a better player. If you ask me who do I prefer as a 2nd option to Ingram then Dlo all day long. It's like Rick Fox and Glen Rice, Ricewas the better player but with the Lakers I prefer Foxy, way better defender and better complimentary player .


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
BobbyB wrote:

I'll clarify.

I like Dlo but I think he gets to much love here. Hes on same tier as Booker impossible to say whos better or not at this point. They both have strengths and weakness.

I actually don't think that many people would disagree with your statement. I don't. I mean I think Russell is the better player, but in terms of tiers, they mostly sit at the same spot right now.



+1


which is the next tier of young players:

Tier 1: Towns, Giannis, healthy Embiid, Davis
Tier 2: Jokic, Wiggins, DLO, Booker, KP, Ingram, Parker, Turner

**Simmons- we'll see where he ends up

Having a guy in that group of young players with huge upside is fantastic. Maybe once people start realizing not everyone is Kobe or LeBron, they can still be fantastic players and eventually have those types of years.


I'm curious about the criteria used to put Jokic and Dlo on the same tier.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
2019 wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
BobbyB wrote:

I'll clarify.

I like Dlo but I think he gets to much love here. Hes on same tier as Booker impossible to say whos better or not at this point. They both have strengths and weakness.

I actually don't think that many people would disagree with your statement. I don't. I mean I think Russell is the better player, but in terms of tiers, they mostly sit at the same spot right now.



+1


which is the next tier of young players:

Tier 1: Towns, Giannis, healthy Embiid, Davis
Tier 2: Jokic, Wiggins, DLO, Booker, KP, Ingram, Parker, Turner

**Simmons- we'll see where he ends up

Having a guy in that group of young players with huge upside is fantastic. Maybe once people start realizing not everyone is Kobe or LeBron, they can still be fantastic players and eventually have those types of years.


I'm curious about the criteria used to put Jokic and Dlo on the same tier.


lol I was thinking same thing along with wiggins too
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NBALakerLegends
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject:

cKPayasoLoco wrote:
nash wrote:
2019 wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
BobbyB wrote:

I'll clarify.

I like Dlo but I think he gets to much love here. Hes on same tier as Booker impossible to say whos better or not at this point. They both have strengths and weakness.

I actually don't think that many people would disagree with your statement. I don't. I mean I think Russell is the better player, but in terms of tiers, they mostly sit at the same spot right now.



+1


which is the next tier of young players:

Tier 1: Towns, Giannis, healthy Embiid, Davis
Tier 2: Jokic, Wiggins, DLO, Booker, KP, Ingram, Parker, Turner

**Simmons- we'll see where he ends up

Having a guy in that group of young players with huge upside is fantastic. Maybe once people start realizing not everyone is Kobe or LeBron, they can still be fantastic players and eventually have those types of years.


I'm curious about the criteria used to put Jokic and Dlo on the same tier.


lol I was thinking same thing along with wiggins too


Jokic should be Tier 1. He's just not a household name yet but the advanced stats and his ability definitely make him a Tier 1 guy.
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2019
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject:

NBALakerLegends wrote:
cKPayasoLoco wrote:
nash wrote:
2019 wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
BobbyB wrote:

I'll clarify.

I like Dlo but I think he gets to much love here. Hes on same tier as Booker impossible to say whos better or not at this point. They both have strengths and weakness.

I actually don't think that many people would disagree with your statement. I don't. I mean I think Russell is the better player, but in terms of tiers, they mostly sit at the same spot right now.



+1


which is the next tier of young players:

Tier 1: Towns, Giannis, healthy Embiid, Davis
Tier 2: Jokic, Wiggins, DLO, Booker, KP, Ingram, Parker, Turner

**Simmons- we'll see where he ends up

Having a guy in that group of young players with huge upside is fantastic. Maybe once people start realizing not everyone is Kobe or LeBron, they can still be fantastic players and eventually have those types of years.


I'm curious about the criteria used to put Jokic and Dlo on the same tier.


lol I was thinking same thing along with wiggins too


Jokic should be Tier 1. He's just not a household name yet but the advanced stats and his ability definitely make him a Tier 1 guy.


Jokic:: I thought about it and was really close to putting him there-- he's super impressive but I think by next year he'll be there. I'm unsure if he's a future MVP candidate like those guys or if he's just a really exciting to watch high level all star.

Wiggins was close as well but until he's good defender, he's in tier 2. Elite wings all need to be shut down on D and unstoppable on O. I think he's on his way to be coming a deadly scorer but the D is lacking.
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tox
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
2019 wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
BobbyB wrote:

I'll clarify.

I like Dlo but I think he gets to much love here. Hes on same tier as Booker impossible to say whos better or not at this point. They both have strengths and weakness.

I actually don't think that many people would disagree with your statement. I don't. I mean I think Russell is the better player, but in terms of tiers, they mostly sit at the same spot right now.



+1


which is the next tier of young players:

Tier 1: Towns, Giannis, healthy Embiid, Davis
Tier 2: Jokic, Wiggins, DLO, Booker, KP, Ingram, Parker, Turner

**Simmons- we'll see where he ends up

Having a guy in that group of young players with huge upside is fantastic. Maybe once people start realizing not everyone is Kobe or LeBron, they can still be fantastic players and eventually have those types of years.


I'm curious about the criteria used to put Jokic and Dlo on the same tier.

Mine too. Jokic belongs in Tier 1 I say.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject:

cKPayasoLoco wrote:


lol I was thinking same thing along with wiggins too


Wiggins has the Booker problem of literally doing nothing but scoring. He's amazing at scoring but there's more to the game than just that. Wig is #50 among all SFs, c.f. Russell (#42) and Booker (#41), in RPM. Not the end all be all of stats, but still.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject:

You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

I'm going to have to correct you.. "I can't" but you You certainly can lol, I'm a novice in all things advanced analytics. I'll have to look more into it.


The basic idea you set out is that box scores can't cover things like the pressure Booker puts on a defense, because it doesn't translate necessarily into points or assists but it benefits teammates in some way. RAPM is a stat that tries to account for that. Basically, it starts with the premise that if you're doing things to help your team that don't show up in the box score (e.g. setting good screens, putting pressure on the defense) then your +/- score should be higher than it otherwise would be (as the team overall plays better with you).

But there's the issue that if you play next to Durant, Curry, Green, and Thompson, you're gonna have a +/- that's way higher than it would be otherwise. So there are some statistical techniques to "adjust" for that. Add to that some other statistical techniques like "regularization" and you end up with RAPM ("Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus"). ESPN's RPM stat is based on RAPM but uses box score stats as well.

So the basic point of my post was that if you think a guy like Kobe puts pressure on defenses in a way that isn't accounted for in the box score, then you'd expect his RAPM to be higher than his OBPM (which is an estimate of RAPM based on box score stats)... which it is.

So, if you want to argue Booker puts more pressure on opposing defenses, there is actually an advanced stat that should account for that (ORPM), and in fact it does support your claim (Booker's is higher than Russell's).

Hope that helps.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:

I'm going to have to correct you.. "I can't" but you You certainly can lol, I'm a novice in all things advanced analytics. I'll have to look more into it.


The basic idea you set out is that box scores can't cover things like the pressure Booker puts on a defense, because it doesn't translate necessarily into points or assists but it benefits teammates in some way. RAPM is a stat that tries to account for that. Basically, it starts with the premise that if you're doing things to help your team that don't show up in the box score (e.g. setting good screens, putting pressure on the defense) then your +/- score should be higher than it otherwise would be (as the team overall plays better with you).

But there's the issue that if you play next to Durant, Curry, Green, and Thompson, you're gonna have a +/- that's way higher than it would be otherwise. So there are some statistical techniques to "adjust" for that. Add to that some other statistical techniques like "regularization" and you end up with RAPM ("Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus"). ESPN's RPM stat is based on RAPM but uses box score stats as well.

So the basic point of my post was that if you think a guy like Kobe puts pressure on defenses in a way that isn't accounted for in the box score, then you'd expect his RAPM to be higher than his OBPM (which is an estimate of RAPM based on box score stats)... which it is.

So, if you want to argue Booker puts more pressure on opposing defenses, there is actually an advanced stat that should account for that (ORPM), and in fact it does support your claim (Booker's is higher than Russell's).

Hope that helps.


That's pretty neat, wouldn't have thought there was a stat for that. And I appreciate the break down. I actually learned something.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


Unless you're Rudy Gay... Carmelo Anthony...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject:

I get it.. Defense is important. But are we being unfairly critical? How many defensive juggernauts do we have in the league currently? And of all the elite guards in the league how many are defensive stoppers? I don't fault them all that much. I will qualify this statement with (I could possibly be wrong) but I believe we've reached a turning point in this league. Due to the way the game is called, guarding an average player can be a challenge. Guarding an elite offensive player one on one, damn near impossible. Maybe the collective defensive bar should be lowered in light of the fact that players are so much more talented individually, and the league has taken measures to make it more difficult to contain them. Granted some offer more resistance than others, some actually seem to give a (bleep) while some don't. But overall I think it's tougher to play defense in this league.

The big men have also been emasculated. Guards are allowed to drive into the lane, use their off arm to throw an elbow/forearm to create space and the refs have the nerve to call a foul on the big lol.. Steve Nash was a master at this, CP3 does it all the time when he can't beat his man off the dribble.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject:

Next season should be his breakout year IMO.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject:

NBALakerLegends wrote:
cKPayasoLoco wrote:
nash wrote:
2019 wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
BobbyB wrote:

I'll clarify.

I like Dlo but I think he gets to much love here. Hes on same tier as Booker impossible to say whos better or not at this point. They both have strengths and weakness.

I actually don't think that many people would disagree with your statement. I don't. I mean I think Russell is the better player, but in terms of tiers, they mostly sit at the same spot right now.



+1


which is the next tier of young players:

Tier 1: Towns, Giannis, healthy Embiid, Davis
Tier 2: Jokic, Wiggins, DLO, Booker, KP, Ingram, Parker, Turner

**Simmons- we'll see where he ends up

Having a guy in that group of young players with huge upside is fantastic. Maybe once people start realizing not everyone is Kobe or LeBron, they can still be fantastic players and eventually have those types of years.


I'm curious about the criteria used to put Jokic and Dlo on the same tier.


lol I was thinking same thing along with wiggins too


Jokic should be Tier 1. He's just not a household name yet but the advanced stats and his ability definitely make him a Tier 1 guy.


Beat me to it.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
I get it.. Defense is important. But are we being unfairly critical? How many defensive juggernauts do we have in the league currently? And of all the elite guards in the league how many are defensive stoppers? I don't fault them all that much. I will qualify this statement with (I could possibly be wrong) but I believe we've reached a turning point in this league. Due to the way the game is called, guarding an average player can be a challenge. Guarding an elite offensive player one on one, damn near impossible. Maybe the collective defensive bar should be lowered in light of the fact that players are so much more talented individually, and the league has taken measures to make it more difficult to contain them. Granted some offer more resistance than others, some actually seem to give a (bleep) while some don't. But overall I think it's tougher to play defense in this league.

The big men have also been emasculated. Guards are allowed to drive into the lane, use their off arm to throw an elbow/forearm to create space and the refs have the nerve to call a foul on the big lol.. Steve Nash was a master at this, CP3 does it all the time when he can't beat his man off the dribble.


I don't think they're just talking about defense. For example, Russell isn't some elite defender, but he plays a better overall floor game (has vision, can organize an offense, facilitate, rebound and score) than a guy like Booker. But people consider Booker to be significantly better only because he's a better scorer. That isn't diminishing Booker as a scorer either. He can be sublime as a scorer. But there's more to the game than just being a scorer.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
I get it.. Defense is important. But are we being unfairly critical? How many defensive juggernauts do we have in the league currently? And of all the elite guards in the league how many are defensive stoppers? I don't fault them all that much. I will qualify this statement with (I could possibly be wrong) but I believe we've reached a turning point in this league. Due to the way the game is called, guarding an average player can be a challenge. Guarding an elite offensive player one on one, damn near impossible. Maybe the collective defensive bar should be lowered in light of the fact that players are so much more talented individually, and the league has taken measures to make it more difficult to contain them. Granted some offer more resistance than others, some actually seem to give a (bleep) while some don't. But overall I think it's tougher to play defense in this league.

The big men have also been emasculated. Guards are allowed to drive into the lane, use their off arm to throw an elbow/forearm to create space and the refs have the nerve to call a foul on the big lol.. Steve Nash was a master at this, CP3 does it all the time when he can't beat his man off the dribble.


I don't think they're just talking about defense. For example, Russell isn't some elite defender, but he plays a better overall floor game (has vision, can organize an offense, facilitate, rebound and score) than a guy like Booker. But people consider Booker to be significantly better only because he's a better scorer. That isn't diminishing Booker as a scorer either. He can be sublime as a scorer. But there's more to the game than just being a scorer.


I understand their argument. I was just talking about the criticism of modern players in general, in regards to their defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject:

LakersNewEra wrote:
Next season should be his breakout year IMO.


He's for sure going to break out next season, I'm just hoping that he has his breakout season on the Lakers...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


You win games by scoring more than the opponent. Some consider scoring the most important facet of basketball.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject:

Deathstroke wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


You win games by scoring more than the opponent. Some consider scoring the most important facet of basketball.


There are better ways to enable your team to score more than your opponent than one guy taking a lot of shots but not contributing anything else.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject:

Player A: 23 points, 3.5 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 3.2 TOV, .9 steals, .3 blocks, 53.1 TS%, -2.3 BPM

Player B: 20 points, 6 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 3.5 TOV, 1.7 steals, .3 blocks, 51.8 TS%, -.5 BPM
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Deathstroke wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


You win games by scoring more than the opponent. Some consider scoring the most important facet of basketball.


There are better ways to enable your team to score more than your opponent than one guy taking a lot of shots but not contributing anything else.


How many players in this league are impactful on both ends of the floor? I'm not so sure this is a valid critique.

This guy contributes nothing on defense, but this other guy is serviceable. Which is only marginally better, as far as I'm concerned. I think we're over doing it with the he only does one thing narrative.


Last edited by SocalDevin on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Deathstroke wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


You win games by scoring more than the opponent. Some consider scoring the most important facet of basketball.


There are better ways to enable your team to score more than your opponent than one guy taking a lot of shots but not contributing anything else.


How many players in this league are impactful on both ends of the floor? I'm not so sure this is a valid critic.

This guy contributes nothing on defense, but this other guy is serviceable. Which is only marginally better, as far as I'm concerned. I think we're over doing it with the he only does one thing narrative.


There's defense, rebounding, passing, etc. We're talking about 5 on 5, not 1 on 1.

Also, if we're talking specific players, the marginal difference in scoring is not big either.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject:

Deathstroke wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


You win games by scoring more than the opponent. Some consider scoring the most important facet of basketball.


Should have ended it with the infamous line "Take that for data"
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject:

cKPayasoLoco wrote:
Deathstroke wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
You literally don't have to do anything else and people will think you're way better than you are so long as you score.


You win games by scoring more than the opponent. Some consider scoring the most important facet of basketball.


Should have ended it with the infamous line "Take that for data"

What if the other guy gets twice the assists?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject:

AY2043 wrote:
Player A: 23 points, 3.5 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 3.2 TOV, .9 steals, .3 blocks, 53.1 TS%, -2.3 BPM

Player B: 20 points, 6 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 3.5 TOV, 1.7 steals, .3 blocks, 51.8 TS%, -.5 BPM


Please, bring player C because I don't like the numbers of those two.

Lots of turnovers, low TS% and BPM from bad to bellow average


Last edited by nash on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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