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akk7
Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 3013
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 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | akk7 wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | akk7 wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | BobbyB wrote: | | krisobe wrote: | | 20/6/4 by year 4-5 would be ideal for DLO. |
Who cares what his stats are. I just want to see him improve. Good percentages, getting to the rim, setting up teammates, playing hard D setting the tone. |
I care what his stats are. Maybe not those stats in particular, but basketball isn't some mystical, existential experience either. The final score is a stat and the events that lead to it are mostly quantifiable. |
Anyway if he doesn't care about stats and just cares about those things he listed, he should be happy as well. D'angelo showed improvement in all those things as the season went on. Especially once he got consistent minutes after ASB.
If you didn't see improvement you either weren't watching or didn't want to see the improvement.
The narrative around this kid, not just by fans, but from so many people around the NBA is so weird. Maybe the pro-Russell side is the one that's wrong? I'm just so confused. Not that many 20-21 year olds do what he just did his second year even though he was up and down. |
I think his biggest problem is that he didn't endear himself to Staples Center fans. A combination of the Nick Young thing + his game not being readily appreciated by an arena loaded with "Eye test" fans. Compare him to Marcus Smart, who has a fraction of the talent/ability/production, but is beloved by Boston fans for all his explicit gestures to "effort." Sort of like us with Larry Nance, who seems to get the most strident objections in fake trades.
If there had been any "DLO" chants this season, or even a moment like Bynum had against Shaq (when he won a lot of fans over) and Magic knew he'd get excoriated if he traded him, it'd be a different story. But the reality is that most of the heartbreak of his inevitable trade will be distributed among message boards. |
I definitely agree with all that, but it's just not fans. It's the national media, national writers, etc. Not like a lot of them know basketball, but he gets very little praise compared to his counterparts.
The narrative also makes it seem like not only is our FO not that high on him, but others aren't either. Who knows what's the truth. |
It is also true that the fraternity of Showtime, with its heavy presence on Laker tv, backed Scott and perpetuated it, and now one of them is in charge. The thing is, theybwanted a center (Lakers have always had great big men) or at least a Kobe archetype (all stoic and effort and work and eye test) and they got this chippy rebellious, fun loving millenial with a skillset they dont recognize as valuable.and that of course made him more distant and rebellious and distrustful. Rinse repeat. |
Oh I know all this. Trust me  . Scott is good friends with a lot of guys calling national games, such as Reggie. He'll tell them things. They'll say things on air and try to make these statements sound unbiased. And boom, the average viewer believes it and repeats the statements.
On top of of that you listen to the Laker network and have reporters who get blown off by Russell or friends of Scott sitting right there.
All this impacts his perception I get it. But it just seems (and maybe I'm projecting my frustration) the majority of people don't hold Russ that highly compared to other young talent. Writers, etc. On top of that, the whole ordeal of the Kings wanting Ingram added to people projecting and saying other FO don't hold Russell that highly.
I wonder if other FO value Russell.
Ingram is valued higher because of his potential, but how highly is Russ valued is what I wonder.
I also hope he matures more quickly. Some of this is on him. Time to grow up even if you're only 21. Grow up, but never lose that arrogance/confidence. That's what makes him special. |
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Villain6Activated
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Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism |
That statement is correct but it's false to say that D'Angelo Russell has no athleticism. I'm a firm believer that DLO is much more athletic then he's shown for the first two seasons. D'Angelo Russell's knee hasn't been great all season and he is underselling himself a lot when he drives to the rim. With training and him realizing that he can take it into the paint I think we'll see a much more athletic point guard.
Also talking about skillsets, DLO has the potential to be a great passer and a great shooter. Those are the first two offensive skills I want from my point guard no matter what.
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
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LakerDYnasty72
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4569
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: |
And the reality is that we could cash in every young player we have for someone who's better right now and we still wouldn't be remotely close to an NBA title. |
You keep saying the choice is "cash in on every young player" which is certainly an option, but an unlikely one.
But I think it is likely that at least one of the "young core" will not be on the roster next season.
The reason being I don't see Magic/Pelinka going into next season with an unproven coach and a team of young guys showing no inkling on defense or even competing hard game in and game out.
Sticking with all the young guys could well be the wisest move in the long run. Or it could be a terrible move. Either way, I doubt this young core is all together much longer, someone is going out in a trade. |
Right, and what I'm saying is that's a mistake. I use the "cash in on every player" scenario to illustrate that we don't have enough. We're at the point where we need to add talent, not trade it for talent that's able to help more immediately, because the end result of that doesn't lead to a title, because the cumulative amount of talent on the roster isn't enough. We're not in the position where we should be trading, we should be adding.
No, the young core isn't very good on defense, nor do they compete every night...just like every other young team. This whole "having a team where most of the core players are between 19-24 years old" thing is a completely alien experience to Laker fans. A team with Kevin Durant in his 2nd year and Russell Westbrook as a rookie won 23 games. Do you think they were playing good defense and competing hard every night? The problem was that they didn't have much around them in the way of veteran talent, and they were still babies. Just like our guys.
I also doubt that this young core will be together much longer, because I don't think the people at the top of the organization are particularly bright in the areas that are required in their position, the whole idea of rebuilding is foreign to them, and everything they say is tinged with impatience.
I'd say that the most likely scenario is that yeah, we trade young talent for better players now and cap ourselves as 1st or 2nd Round fodder over the years, completing this organization's sprint toward Knickdom. |
"Everything they say is tinged with impatience". Da_n GT, a very perceptive statement. Now I'm curious as to what course of action you would have like to have seen?
1. Keep Mitch & Jim and be patient with the current course?
2.Change the previous leadership, but with different people than we presently have as GM & President?
3. Add the Logo when we had/have the chance?
4. Add the Logo, and even more basketball expertise?
What? what? |
This was the problem I expressed from early on. Someone has to be the final hammer, and that person has to be an owner or so closely tied than owner as to not be an employee. This is why Jim had the job, because Jerry knew that among the next generation if owners, he was the only one with any real experience on the job and aptitude for it (not arguing here how much, just relative to his siblings).
But he was also very poor at the charismatic and socialnareas required of working with fans and other owners and the league. He's kind if an odd semi hermit. Nothing wrong with that, but you need an ownership face. And Jeanie had and displayed those skills in spades. But of course she had no operational aptitude on the basketball side, and quite tellingly, not only admitted that, but never really made any move to fix it. Despite being around a lot of great talent (maybe since her boyfriend was busy trying to take over, she didn't feel the need or desire to go pick Jerry West's brain, for example).
So that was the construct, with some younger kids coming up along the way. But it was doomed to fail because the public half never gave up the original fight to have it all, which really impinge on the ability of the ops staff to work. And I think it stunted the culture there. It became closed off by necessity, even as it tried to move forward and modernize.
So when unearned people about Jeanie unseating Jim, it wasn't that Jim was the greatest, or even that Mitch was infallible. It was recognition that if and when she won, Jeanie was going to put someone from her extended "family" in charge, and that it wasn't going to be a cutting edge transaction. Because she's not even trailing edge on basketball. She's more concerned with marketing optics and personal political loyalties. |
I am an avid fan and reader of positive quotations and notable sayings. Here's a quote from someone who passed away way back in 1965, but I still consider him one of my mentors through his writings.
His quote:" if you look back over the history of the greatest accomplishments in the history of humanity, you will inevitably find that the greatest accomplishments among them were the result of a collaboration of those with expertise"
Another way of saying get the best people (West) you can. Then, get out of their way. |
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AY2043
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 10621
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
How many guys in the league have elite skills + athleticism? Durant? LeBron? Westbrok maybe? |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4794
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| LilJay24 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: |
The Conley level is ok for DLO. I think most of us expected more at the beginning |
Hmmm. Somewhere on this site, it might be in this thread or another, someone asked this question right after we drafted DLO....whether if DLO ended up at Conley's level would you take it?
I don't remember the answers, though. |
I'd take it if it meant getting this year's version of Conley for the next 12 years. But at the same time, Conley didn't put up very good numbers until his 7th or 8th year. I mean heck, DLO's per 36 raw stats this year are right on line with Conley's numbers in his best year, the difference being DLO was less efficient and not as good on D.
I think it's definitely reasonable to assume DLO will put up better offensive numbers. But I don't think he'll ever be the defender Conley is. |
Lakers should just hide Russell defensively. He can't stay in front of his man. He's good in reading plays and all that but he just don't have that physical attributes to put a clamp on someone. I think he will be a decent team defender but not individually. I like it when the Lakers assigned him with the Shumpert and Rush of the world. |
I think we put way to much emphasis on individual defense when talking about our youngsters. Ingram looks like he'll be a solid defender and we'll acquire more defensive minded players hopefully. But at the end of the day it's going to come down to our team defense and how much the young guys but into the game plan.
DLO at worst will be as good of a defender as Steph Curry and GSW is the best defensive player in the league. We might not ever have a Draymond level defender but team defense matters much more then individual defense.
DLO's defense has never been a concern for me because he has the size and length to be an average defender in this league at the very least. He can be better then average depending on his growth but I don't think we need to worry about him being a liability on that end.
Derek Fisher/Pau Gasol weren't some world class defenders during our second championship run but the Lakers played championship level defense because of the system. |
Of course I'm worried about his - 2.42 drpm and see guys often blow past him. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Wildchild027 wrote: | We can trade, and add at the same time. If we lose the pick, the only way to add talent will be via FA anyway. It's just hard for me to believe that the only way we can get back to championship contention is to stay the course. Especially, when none of these players project to be all-world.
Again, taking a one way approach to rebuilding is short-sighted in my opinion. |
Adding via FA is exactly what I'm advocating. Trades are exactly that...an exchange of talent. Losing the pick would make trading for PG even dumber.
Say we trade Russell + #28 for George, after losing the pick, and then sign Jrue Holiday or someone of that ilk in Free Agency to replace Russell. We've made the team better in the short term, although nowhere near contention, and we've degraded our one chance to add more young talent, because we'll be too good to have a decent chance at a Top 3-5 pick.
Oh, and whether we like it or not, both George & Ingram are 3's at this point, so you're gonna be getting a lesser version of one of them (it'll be Ingram, because the established star will win) at the SG spot.
PG: Jrue Holiday
SG: Brandon Ingram, Jordan Clarkson
SF: Paul George
PF: Julius Randle, Larry Nance, Luol Deng
C: Timofey Mozgov, Tarik Black, Ivica Zubac
That team's about a 9th seed in the West. And you'll have about the 13th pick in the '18 draft. This is what purgatory looks like. Better hope PG13 re-signs. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
Of course but that's not what you're saying.
You're saying that a guy's ceiling is limited due to a lack of athleticism, and I'd argue that a guy's ceiling is limited due to a lack of skill set. Many people assume that the skills can be learned so it's the athleticism part that's important because you can't teach that.
And lots of draft busts fit that archetype. Ask Dante Exum, Emmanuel Mudiay, and Kris Dunn how well being athletic is working out for them in the NBA. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
Of course but that's not what you're saying.
You're saying that a guy's ceiling is limited due to a lack of athleticism, and I'd argue that a guy's ceiling is limited due to a lack of skill set. Many people assume that the skills can be learned so it's the athleticism part that's important because you can't teach that.
And lots of draft busts fit that archetype. Ask Dante Exum, Emmanuel Mudiay, and Kris Dunn how well being athletic is working out for them in the NBA. |
A lot of what people consider skill, and especially aptitudes for it, are actually talent.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | Seems like the highest price tag has been placed on BI, with DLO runner up. Randle and JC are behind them. And you can add the top 3 pick as well to that mix. I'd be surprised if they don't move one or more of the young guys for some FA talent. I just don't see Jeannie and magic being cotent with staying pat and risking another 35 win or less season.
The Conley level is ok for DLO. I think most of us expected more at the beginning |
The flip side is that if we keep the young players and cap space and win over 35 games, we will be a FA option in 2018. |
What are the chances of that happening? Unless we sign PG13 or someone like that, the chances of more than 35 wins is not that good, imo.
Like I've said before, I would love to see the lakers sign a Cedric Ceballos type player: grabbing rebounds, cleaning up randles miistakes with offensive rebounds and put backs, and the ability to hit the three. If we got an FA like that, this team would be playoff bound next year. |
We improved by 9 games last season trying to tank. Improving by another 9 games if we stand pat is very possible. If a FA sees we are on the verge of.500 and then playoffs, coming here becomes easier. But I realize that is only one of several possibilities.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| LilJay24 wrote: | This may be a little bit of a hot take and I want him to improve in other areas of his game also but I think he goes as far as his jump shot takes him. I don't mean that he's going to be limited to a jump shot but I think his shot will always be the best part of his game and how good he becomes will ultimately depends on what tier of a shooter he can become.
If he can become a tier 1 shooter (basically one of the best shooters in the league while assuming that Curry is in his own tier) then I think he can become a star. Whether that's the first option, second etc. doesn't matter.
If he can become a tier 2 shooter then he can be an all-star level player.
If he goes on to become an inconsistent shooter with above average percentages then I think he'll be an average starter or an instant offense 6th man.
He has a silky smooth shoot when he's going, I just want him to be a little more consistent and have the same form more often. Sometimes I noticed that he throws up a jump shot that doesn't look anything like his natural shooting motion. |
Strongly agree. As I posted yesterday, he's gotta get better at making open shots, because he gets them. Once again:
3PT% by Closest Defender
Very Tight (0-2 feet).......18%
Tight (2-4 feet)..............38%
Open (4-6 feet)............32%
Wide Open (6+ feet).......38%
The bolded is what needs to improve, and even 38% when Wide Open needs to be in the low 40's. 4.7 of his 6.2 3-point attempts per game are either Open or Wide Open...which is great and the hardest part of this...now he's just gotta make them more often. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | A lot of what people consider skill, and especially aptitudes for it, are actually talent. |
Absolutely.
And running fast/jumping high are less important talents than that. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | A lot of what people consider skill, and especially aptitudes for it, are actually talent. |
Absolutely.
And running fast/jumping high are less important talents than that. |
It's one reason I like dlo so much. He sees the game intrinsically at a high level.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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akk7
Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 3013
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | LilJay24 wrote: | This may be a little bit of a hot take and I want him to improve in other areas of his game also but I think he goes as far as his jump shot takes him. I don't mean that he's going to be limited to a jump shot but I think his shot will always be the best part of his game and how good he becomes will ultimately depends on what tier of a shooter he can become.
If he can become a tier 1 shooter (basically one of the best shooters in the league while assuming that Curry is in his own tier) then I think he can become a star. Whether that's the first option, second etc. doesn't matter.
If he can become a tier 2 shooter then he can be an all-star level player.
If he goes on to become an inconsistent shooter with above average percentages then I think he'll be an average starter or an instant offense 6th man.
He has a silky smooth shoot when he's going, I just want him to be a little more consistent and have the same form more often. Sometimes I noticed that he throws up a jump shot that doesn't look anything like his natural shooting motion. |
Strongly agree. As I posted yesterday, he's gotta get better at making open shots, because he gets them. Once again:
3PT% by Closest Defender
Very Tight (0-2 feet).......18%
Tight (2-4 feet)..............38%
Open (4-6 feet)............32%
Wide Open (6+ feet).......38%
The bolded is what needs to improve, and even 38% when Wide Open needs to be in the low 40's. 4.7 of his 6.2 3-point attempts per game are either Open or Wide Open...which is great and the hardest part of this...now he's just gotta make them more often. |
I wonder if our team tells our guys these sorts of things. On top of that his shot form changing, his ft form having a slight issue, etc.
Rather than focusing on showing leadership, showing fire, getting in shape and all those sorts of common platitudes. |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4794
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
Of course but that's not what you're saying.
You're saying that a guy's ceiling is limited due to a lack of athleticism, and I'd argue that a guy's ceiling is limited due to a lack of skill set. Many people assume that the skills can be learned so it's the athleticism part that's important because you can't teach that.
And lots of draft busts fit that archetype. Ask Dante Exum, Emmanuel Mudiay, and Kris Dunn how well being athletic is working out for them in the NBA. |
So can you teach athleticism? Can you learned to be fast? It's either you have it or you don't.
Meanwhile can you teach players to shoot, pass and dribble. Yes and It's on them if they don't have that passion , commitment and work ethic. |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4794
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
How many guys in the league have elite skills + athleticism? Durant? LeBron? Westbrok maybe? |
But can you imagine Jordan being a GOAT without being an elite athlete? We are talking about ceiling here. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Meanwhile can you teach players to shoot, pass and dribble. Yes and It's on them if they don't have that passion , commitment and work ethic.
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Players can have the athleticism they want, but for some players it takes a longer time to implement skill sets on a consistent basis.
Andre Roberson is an elite athlete. Are you seriously going to wait 4 years for a guy that's a 5th option on offense?
I'd even argue that you can teach players to shoot, but passing and dribbling at that stage for an NBA player require so much time during the offseason, it never really pans out unless the player showed signs of it early. KG? Webber? Griffin? Yes. Derek Fisher? John Paxson? No.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AY2043
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Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 10621
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
How many guys in the league have elite skills + athleticism? Durant? LeBron? Westbrok maybe? |
But can you imagine Jordan being a GOAT without being an elite athlete? We are talking about ceiling here. |
Of course not, but I'm not expecting him to be a top 10 player of all time.....
That's what I'm saying. You can be very, very successful in this league without being particularly athletic, and DLO is well on his way to doing that. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
How many guys in the league have elite skills + athleticism? Durant? LeBron? Westbrok maybe? |
But can you imagine Jordan being a GOAT without being an elite athlete? We are talking about ceiling here. |
So Russell is doomed to have a ceiling a notch below Jordan?
OK |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Larry Bird has a limited ceiling because he can run or jump.
Btw, Nikola Jokic, Marc Gasol, and Andre Miller have limited ceilings because they can't run or jump either.
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Wildchild027
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Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 3846
Location: A-T-L-A-N-T-A
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Wildchild027 wrote: | We can trade, and add at the same time. If we lose the pick, the only way to add talent will be via FA anyway. It's just hard for me to believe that the only way we can get back to championship contention is to stay the course. Especially, when none of these players project to be all-world.
Again, taking a one way approach to rebuilding is short-sighted in my opinion. |
Adding via FA is exactly what I'm advocating. Trades are exactly that...an exchange of talent. Losing the pick would make trading for PG even dumber.
Say we trade Russell + #28 for George, after losing the pick, and then sign Jrue Holiday or someone of that ilk in Free Agency to replace Russell. We've made the team better in the short term, although nowhere near contention, and we've degraded our one chance to add more young talent, because we'll be too good to have a decent chance at a Top 3-5 pick.
Oh, and whether we like it or not, both George & Ingram are 3's at this point, so you're gonna be getting a lesser version of one of them (it'll be Ingram, because the established star will win) at the SG spot.
PG: Jrue Holiday
SG: Brandon Ingram, Jordan Clarkson
SF: Paul George
PF: Julius Randle, Larry Nance, Luol Deng
C: Timofey Mozgov, Tarik Black, Ivica Zubac
That team's about a 9th seed in the West. And you'll have about the 13th pick in the '18 draft. This is what purgatory looks like. Better hope PG13 re-signs. |
I am not willing to trade for George if we lose the pick. But if we keep it, and I can trade my 3rd and 4th best asset to get Paul George, I would do it. If I could do Ingram, Randle and Brewer for PG, I am doing it.
Plus, last season teams that weren't in the playoff hunt (Orlando and Brooklyn) were willing to trade guys like Ibaka and Bogdanovic for guys on long term deals (Nicholson and Ross), so they could get 1st round draft picks, so I would go to Brooklyn to see if I can get Lopez for Mozgov, Black and picks. I would use my reminding capspace to replace Randle.
Ball
Russell
PG13
FA
Lopez
That's the team I would be shooting for, with some of the bench personal you already mention. Is that championship level? No, but we have improve tremendously, and I still have my top two assets. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism .
How many guys in the league have elite skills + athleticism? Durant? LeBron? Westbrok maybe?
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As an observer of the draft, this is the hardest thing to find. Like Andrew Bynum and Tracy McGrady were purely skilled from the get go? Ben Wallace?
But, every single draft class is different. Guys with those tools, athleticism and skill level jump automatically to the top. That's why Fultz, for the most part, has been considered #1 basically all season while everyone else is shuffling.
Some draft classes, you get 5 guys at the top that are franchise types.
Most draft classes lately, it's just 1, due to 1 and done rules.
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4794
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | DLo has limited ceiling because of his lack of speed and athleticism. His skill set is elite though and so his bball IQ and his vision. Whether that will be enough to make him great, time will tell. Mentally , I think he has that Mamba clutch ability. He has the knack of hitting tough shots and embracing it. But there are other things like work ethic, passion, heart and dedication that makes a great player. Because of his lack of physical attributes, he will have to work harder. He will be a great 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team and a good fit to compliment Ingram. |
I honestly don't know how you can watch the NBA and not see the preponderance of guys with middling athleticism but elite skill sets who are really, really good.
Meanwhile, Ingram learned to tie his shoes in the last portion of the season and he's now the presumptive #1 option going forward. It's mind-blowing. |
Let's break it down to simple equation .
Let's say bball IQ, mental mindset and work ethic are all equal.
Elite skill set with elite athleticism > elite skill set with no athleticism . |
How many guys in the league have elite skills + athleticism? Durant? LeBron? Westbrok maybe? |
But can you imagine Jordan being a GOAT without being an elite athlete? We are talking about ceiling here. |
Of course not, but I'm not expecting him to be a top 10 player of all time.....
That's what I'm saying. You can be very, very successful in this league without being particularly athletic, and DLO is well on his way to doing that. |
Yes I'll be happy if he will donning the purple and gold. I just said Ingram has a higher ceiling. |
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LandsbergerRules
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| krisobe wrote: | | 20/6/4 by year 4-5 would be ideal for DLO. |
If he can get there in that time frame and maintain it throughout much of his 20s, I'd be good with that.
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | krisobe wrote: | | 20/6/4 by year 4-5 would be ideal for DLO. |
If he can get there in that time frame and maintain it throughout much of his 20s, I'd be good with that. |
So, basically, just play him 36 minutes right now?
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https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
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AY2043
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 10621
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | krisobe wrote: | | 20/6/4 by year 4-5 would be ideal for DLO. |
If he can get there in that time frame and maintain it throughout much of his 20s, I'd be good with that. |
So, basically, just play him 36 minutes right now? |
I think he can do it next year. All it would take is a marginal improvement and legit starters minutes |
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