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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
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 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: |
Of course they're both limiting factors, but if I have to pick one or the other I'm taking the guy with the skill set and the middling athleticism over the athlete w/o much of a skill set every single time. |
I'm not a big fan of uber athletic players lacking advanced skillset, but we have as many examples of those guys thriving as we have of players without a great deal of athleticism doing fine. Rose is a former MVP and I really don't think he is was at any point of his career more skilled than Dlo. Westbrook without his outstanding athletic gifts is a somewhat average player.
Talking more explicitly about Magic quote, I think Dlo athleticism is underdeveloped. It is just my eye test, but he doesn't looks like an elite athlete in terms of conditioning and he may have one more gear (I can be wrong about that) if he buys the mantra to become an elite athlete, something Pau never did.
Last edited by nash on Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | CP3, Nash and Curry are all quick. DLo does not have the foot speed but can match their skill set. |
They appear quick because they utilize their skill set.
One thing I'd always do when coaching V-cuts, back cuts, and triple threat moves is have the most athletic kid come out onto the court to guard my little fat ass. And then I'd smoke them. With the moral of the story being "if I can do this while using these tools, imagine what you can do?"
Guys like CP3, Nash, & Curry appear quicker than they are because they use tools. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Larry Bird has a limited ceiling because he can run or jump.
Btw, Nikola Jokic, Marc Gasol, and Andre Miller have limited ceilings because they can't run or jump either. |
Bird is the greatest skilled player ever. How many top 10 GOAT will have his career without their physical attributes? None
If Andre Miller was athletic, don't you think he will be at least a HOF player.
If Jokic and Gasol are athletic, don't you think they would have a higher ceiling. Imagine Jokic skill set on the Admiral body, would that be a bball fan pipe dream.
Not saying DLo won't be great, I just said he has a limited ceiling. |
What if Jordan and LeBron could shoot like Steph Curry? What if Shaq could make free throws? What if Kareem had guard handles?
Everyone has things that they could do better. Doesn't necessarily mean they have a limited ceiling. |
So if the skill set is equal, which one do you think has a higher ceiling ? An elite athlete or below the par athlete? Can you say that the latter will have a limited ceiling? |
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be an All Star?
Yes.
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be a Hall of Famer?
Yes.
So really what you are talking about is the same type of hypothetical as Kobe having huge hands, Shaq being able to hit free throws, Bird being able to dribble and dunk over people, Jordan having modern range...
All would be nice, but to hold their shortcomings against them as some barrier to being great is to miss the things that they do very well and results in an unfair criticism.
Not unfair because it is inaccurate, but unfair in the weight it is given as a limiting factor in their future ceiling.
Again, we can nit-pick every player who has ever lived, but it is a BS way to evaluate. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: |
Of course they're both limiting factors, but if I have to pick one or the other I'm taking the guy with the skill set and the middling athleticism over the athlete w/o much of a skill set every single time. |
I'm not a big fan of uber athletic players lacking advanced skillset, but we have as many examples of those guys thriving as players without a great deal of athleticism doing fine. Rose is a former MVP and I really don't think he is was at any point of his career more skilled than Dlo. Westbrook without his outstanding athletic gifts is a somewhat average player.
Talking more explicitly about Magic quote, I think Dlo athleticism is underdeveloped. It is just my eye test, but he doesn't looks like an elite athlete in terms of conditioning and he may have one more gear (I can be wrong about that) if he buys the mantra to become an elite athlete, something Pau never did. |
Don't get me wrong, nothing bad is gonna come from Russell getting into the best shape he can get into. He needs to do that.
All I'm saying is that a lack of athleticsm isn't a death knell. Steph Curry can be the best player on a champion just as LeBron James is. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | The wrong assumption is that skills can just be taught. That is simply not true. There is a certain hand eye coordination that is just natural talent. There is a certain level of mental processing that some players have. You don't think Ben Wallace had a good work-ethic?
Basketball is all about thinking quickly and executing. That is what bball IQ is to me. It's why someone like Lonzo Ball stands out to be honest, he thinks quicker than other players when it comes to off ball movement and passing. |
So are you saying that passing, shooting and handles are things that can't be taught. Agree about vision and Bball IQ though, that's why I'm a Lonzo guy. With all that athletes and spacing in the NBA, he will make everyone around him better and he's quick and athletic enough for me. |
They can be taught but there are a couple of factors in play. You have to start at a young age when you have significant plasticity in your brain. You want these skills to be second nature so you don't have to think about it. The moment you have to think in a game is when you lose your advantage. You can definitely improve but those with elite skills usually developed a foundation at a young age. Shooting is probably the one thing that can be improved on the most. Ball-handling the least among other things.
All the big time soccer players were involved with professional club teams at a really young age and they basically filter out who has that "talent" and who doesn't. They then focus on perfecting those skills.
Kawhi Leonard is the exception but then again he still had the fundamental hand-eye coordination, great measurables, and tremendous work-ethic. |
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nash
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: |
Don't get me wrong, nothing bad is gonna come from Russell getting into the best shape he can get into. He needs to do that.
All I'm saying is that a lack of athleticsm isn't a death knell. Steph Curry can be the best player on a champion just as LeBron James is. |
I understand and I agree about that. I don't like Curry example because the guy shoots the rock like nobody, but we have tons of very good players that aren't great athletes.
What I think you should understand is that when folks tell Ingram may be our best prospect and I agree with you that Dlo is our most skilled high draft pick at this point it is because considering his age, elite length and very good athleticism he can be a higher perceived ceiling. Every year passed without a huge increase of stats is going to lower a prospect perceived value, that is why high draft picks have more value than most prospects even if we know most of them are not going to be good players. There is a lot of value in the doubt. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| All things being equal, the one with better athleticism will be able to do things that most players with equivalent skill cannot. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Oddly, none of golden state's big four are elite athletes.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Judah
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Except all four of them are also anomalies....
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“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper |
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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Oddly, none of golden state's big four are elite athletes. |
It is true, but man, those guys can shoot! |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Durant is close to an elite athlete when you factor in he is about 7 feet. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | I think Durant is close to an elite athlete when you factor in he is about 7 feet. |
Size is not athleticism. Dlo has the standing reach of a small forward..
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Last edited by Omar Little on Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | I think Durant is close to an elite athlete when you factor in he is about 7 feet. |
Size is not athleticism. Eli has the standing reach of a small forward.. |
Quickness for size is certainly athleticism. Very good vertical. He's not LeBron but pretty athletic. |
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nash
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | I think Durant is close to an elite athlete when you factor in he is about 7 feet. |
Not close to elite, but he is a good athlete with elite size and length. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | I think Durant is close to an elite athlete when you factor in he is about 7 feet. |
Size is not athleticism. Eli has the standing reach of a small forward.. |
Quickness for size is certainly athleticism. Very good vertical. He's not LeBron but pretty athletic. |
Quickness is certainly a part of athleticism, and yes, size often offsets the need for athleticism to some degree.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Larry Bird has a limited ceiling because he can run or jump.
Btw, Nikola Jokic, Marc Gasol, and Andre Miller have limited ceilings because they can't run or jump either. |
Bird is the greatest skilled player ever. How many top 10 GOAT will have his career without their physical attributes? None
If Andre Miller was athletic, don't you think he will be at least a HOF player.
If Jokic and Gasol are athletic, don't you think they would have a higher ceiling. Imagine Jokic skill set on the Admiral body, would that be a bball fan pipe dream.
Not saying DLo won't be great, I just said he has a limited ceiling. |
What if Jordan and LeBron could shoot like Steph Curry? What if Shaq could make free throws? What if Kareem had guard handles?
Everyone has things that they could do better. Doesn't necessarily mean they have a limited ceiling. |
So if the skill set is equal, which one do you think has a higher ceiling ? An elite athlete or below the par athlete? Can you say that the latter will have a limited ceiling? |
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be an All Star?
Yes.
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be a Hall of Famer?
Yes.
So really what you are talking about is the same type of hypothetical as Kobe having huge hands, Shaq being able to hit free throws, Bird being able to dribble and dunk over people, Jordan having modern range...
All would be nice, but to hold their shortcomings against them as some barrier to being great is to miss the things that they do very well and results in an unfair criticism.
Not unfair because it is inaccurate, but unfair in the weight it is given as a limiting factor in their future ceiling.
Again, we can nit-pick every player who has ever lived, but it is a BS way to evaluate. |
Which one do you think has a higher ceiling? Dlo with athleticism or DLo . |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Larry Bird has a limited ceiling because he can run or jump.
Btw, Nikola Jokic, Marc Gasol, and Andre Miller have limited ceilings because they can't run or jump either. |
Bird is the greatest skilled player ever. How many top 10 GOAT will have his career without their physical attributes? None
If Andre Miller was athletic, don't you think he will be at least a HOF player.
If Jokic and Gasol are athletic, don't you think they would have a higher ceiling. Imagine Jokic skill set on the Admiral body, would that be a bball fan pipe dream.
Not saying DLo won't be great, I just said he has a limited ceiling. |
What if Jordan and LeBron could shoot like Steph Curry? What if Shaq could make free throws? What if Kareem had guard handles?
Everyone has things that they could do better. Doesn't necessarily mean they have a limited ceiling. |
So if the skill set is equal, which one do you think has a higher ceiling ? An elite athlete or below the par athlete? Can you say that the latter will have a limited ceiling? |
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be an All Star?
Yes.
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be a Hall of Famer?
Yes.
So really what you are talking about is the same type of hypothetical as Kobe having huge hands, Shaq being able to hit free throws, Bird being able to dribble and dunk over people, Jordan having modern range...
All would be nice, but to hold their shortcomings against them as some barrier to being great is to miss the things that they do very well and results in an unfair criticism.
Not unfair because it is inaccurate, but unfair in the weight it is given as a limiting factor in their future ceiling.
Again, we can nit-pick every player who has ever lived, but it is a BS way to evaluate. |
Which one do you think has a higher ceiling? Dlo with athleticism or DLo . |
Really? |
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DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40198
Location: O.C.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Who has a higher ceiling DJ Mbenga with DLO's skills or DJ Mbenga? |
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defense
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39451
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | Who has a higher ceiling DJ Mbenga with DLO's skills or DJ Mbenga? |
DJ is 7 feet so he has to have a higher ceiling doesn't he?
https://goo.gl/LQLpU7 |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4794
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Larry Bird has a limited ceiling because he can run or jump.
Btw, Nikola Jokic, Marc Gasol, and Andre Miller have limited ceilings because they can't run or jump either. |
Bird is the greatest skilled player ever. How many top 10 GOAT will have his career without their physical attributes? None
If Andre Miller was athletic, don't you think he will be at least a HOF player.
If Jokic and Gasol are athletic, don't you think they would have a higher ceiling. Imagine Jokic skill set on the Admiral body, would that be a bball fan pipe dream.
Not saying DLo won't be great, I just said he has a limited ceiling. |
What if Jordan and LeBron could shoot like Steph Curry? What if Shaq could make free throws? What if Kareem had guard handles?
Everyone has things that they could do better. Doesn't necessarily mean they have a limited ceiling. |
So if the skill set is equal, which one do you think has a higher ceiling ? An elite athlete or below the par athlete? Can you say that the latter will have a limited ceiling? |
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be an All Star?
Yes.
Can someone with Russell's athleticism be a Hall of Famer?
Yes.
So really what you are talking about is the same type of hypothetical as Kobe having huge hands, Shaq being able to hit free throws, Bird being able to dribble and dunk over people, Jordan having modern range...
All would be nice, but to hold their shortcomings against them as some barrier to being great is to miss the things that they do very well and results in an unfair criticism.
Not unfair because it is inaccurate, but unfair in the weight it is given as a limiting factor in their future ceiling.
Again, we can nit-pick every player who has ever lived, but it is a BS way to evaluate. |
Which one do you think has a higher ceiling? Dlo with athleticism or DLo . |
Really? |
My take on DLo is not base on hypothetical. I don't see him as an athletic nor has enough quickness to be that great player. You know that player that has an extra gear and physically imposed his will to take his team to another level. His skill set will make him a good player and be a great complimentary piece to Ingram. |
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The Logo
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2013
Posts: 9577
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | Who has a higher ceiling DJ Mbenga with DLO's skills or DJ Mbenga? |
DJ is 7 feet so he has to have a higher ceiling doesn't he?
https://goo.gl/LQLpU7 |
The ceiling is the roof! |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | Who has a higher ceiling DJ Mbenga with DLO's skills or DJ Mbenga? |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4794
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | Who has a higher ceiling DJ Mbenga with DLO's skills or DJ Mbenga? |
I'll choose DJ Mbenga with Westbrook athleticism than DJ Mbenga with DLo skills. It will be like Gobert on steroids vs Jokic. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Dwight Howard |
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The Logo
Star Player
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Posts: 9577
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| What if Adam Morrison had Kobe Bryant's skills? |
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