Although, the Warriors didn't have a 2nd modern PF who could play productively at the 5. We have Randle and Nance. So instead of Draymond only playing 10mpg at Center, we can play both of our PFs 10mpg at Center
In the playoffs we saw 6'6 Justise Winslow hold his own at Center , and 6'3 Marcus Smart hold his own at PF.
I will be very disappointed if Randle and/or Nance can't hold their own at Center
Except if we wanted to run small ball, we already have Tarik Black to play center in that scenario.
That gives us no offensive advantage my man. Which is the point of going small. Tarik isn't a small ball 5 , he's a modern 5.
Tarik's a "small ball 5" if you're going by height and getting up and down the court and point blank speed to run with the 'small guys'.
Jefferson is a modern 5, KAT is a modern 5, Cousins is a modern 5 and on THIS team Mozgov is a modern 5.
But if we want to run small and get up and down the court, then Tarik is the 5 we'd be using.
Tarik is only 10 pounds heavier than Draymond Green or Brandon Bass and is the same height as Randle and Nance Jr.
The benefit is that he sets harder screens than Nance Jr OR Randle and is a pick and roll demon that dives to the basket just as fast as either of them.
So if we wanted to run that small ball, up and down the court, pick and roll style of basketball lineup, then we'd be putting Black at center, as he's a court runner just as much as Nance would be. He wouldn't be bringing the ball up the court but if our goal is to run and we don't want Mozgov out there in that situation for it, then there's absolutely no reason for us to not use Black.
Unless your definition of "small ball 5" is "6'8-9 guy that can hit threes".
Small ball 5 is very simple imo. The modern 5 is the big you can go to in the pinch post and set things up from there in addition to some other things, but you're thinking "half court set" most of the time when you use them. Tarik Black is not that kind of 5.
A small ball 5 is a smaller but faster guy you run when you are intending on pick and rolling people to death and running in transition and expecting the 5 to be trailing your guards or beating people down the court. The kind of big you go to when the defense isn't set and you're trying to get quick offense out of. Tarik Black IS that kind of 5.
So via that I'd say Tarik is a 5 you play when you're running small and running the floor, and not when you're thinking halfcourt set and running action out of the pinch post.
Ya I think small ball is a skill thing. Tarik is just a short, typical Center . Small ball is defined by players playing 'up' positions, Tarik is a 5 through and through. Don't think the small ball Center has to be able to hit 3s, other small position skills will do (handling the ball, passing)
Ya I think small ball is a skill thing. Tarik is just a short, typical Center . Small ball is defined by players playing 'up' positions, Tarik is a 5 through and through. Don't think the small ball Center has to be able to hit 3s, other small position skills will do (handling the ball, passing)
That's where we differ. Because to me the small ball 5 is precisely what it sounds like, a 5 you play when you're running small and running the floor and running early offense.
Such as when I watch Tarik used here
I only can imagine how his game could have developed if Byron gave a [expletive].
If Tarik had been played consistently and gotten confidence in that mid range he's looked at completely differently right now imo and probably costs more to re-sign.
But anyway, when I think of the Lakers running up and down the court, on the fast break, in early offense, pick and rolling units to oblivion and setting up early scoring opportunities, Black is the center I see them doing that with.
Heck even the 3-5 defense of a Ingram, Nance Jr, Black lineup is very fun to think about, particularly when you realize it will be Calderon setting up those guys in fast break opportunities.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject:
I have to go with KIROE on this one. Small ball is when you slide a player from a traditional position one or more numbers up to a traditionally bigger position. Moving a traditional SF like Deng to PF or a traditional PF like Randle or Nance to C would qualify. Skill set wise, Black is a Center, filling the same role as a Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan. He's smaller than those guys, making him a backup for the foreseeable future but his length for the C position is actually OK.
I have to go with KIROE on this one. Small ball is when you slide a player from a traditional position one or more numbers up to a traditionally bigger position. Moving a traditional SF like Deng to PF or a traditional PF like Randle or Nance to C would qualify. Skill set wise, Black is a Center, filling the same role as a Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan. He's smaller than those guys, making him a backup for the foreseeable future but his length for the C position is actually OK.
We'll have to agree to disagree then.
Because if they can run the same sets then thats what they should be called.
If you moved Randle to the 5 is there anything he's going to do that Tarik Black already can't when it comes to the pick and roll and screen setting? Yet Tarik only outweighs Randle by 10 pounds. And if it's because Randle mainly plays the 4, thats what we had Tarik Black play when we started Jordan Hill at the 5. And under any other circumstance I am fairly sure in 'this' era that Jordan Hill would himself be classified as a 'small ball 5'.
The only difference is, like I said, I feel, that you can ask Randle to shoot from mid or from three like you could Nance Jr but you couldn't ask Black.
To me as I said, small ball 5s are still 5s but the kind you don't run a half court set with, because imo small ball is a concept where you're trotting out a 'smaller' lineup in order to run a faster offense and are possibly forgoing half court traditionalism and potentially defense in order for you to take advantage of matchups at those positions.
And when I think of Tarik Black matched up against a 7 center that he is going to beat down the court and off pick and rolls and dives to the basket with ease I immediately think of the matchup advantage of 'small ball' and how it's being exploited
To some its more the player being pushed into a position one position higher than they are used to being used. To me it could be that but it's also in the style of play. No one inserts a small ball center to run any kind of half court set, its a style of play and lineup you use when you are trying to run the ball, not let the defense get set and are attacking from angles of fast defense attacking the D that way. But you aren't running many half court sets or in the pinch post which is what you'd do with your traditional center.
That's the lineup I see Black utilized as the 5 in and in that style.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
But to me personally if we're going to run a 'fast running up and down the court attacking the defense early' lineup, we could run Black at center and we have him for that reason.
If memory serves when we went small against Utah in the come back vs Utah in Kobe's final game, wasn't our lineup Nance at the 3, Randle at the 4 and Black at the 5?
I have to go with KIROE on this one. Small ball is when you slide a player from a traditional position one or more numbers up to a traditionally bigger position. Moving a traditional SF like Deng to PF or a traditional PF like Randle or Nance to C would qualify. Skill set wise, Black is a Center, filling the same role as a Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan. He's smaller than those guys, making him a backup for the foreseeable future but his length for the C position is actually OK.
We'll have to agree to disagree then.
Because if they can run the same sets then thats what they should be called.
If you moved Randle to the 5 is there anything he's going to do that Tarik Black already can't when it comes to the pick and roll and screen setting? Yet Tarik only outweighs Randle by 10 pounds. And if it's because Randle mainly plays the 4, thats what we had Tarik Black play when we started Jordan Hill at the 5. And under any other circumstance I am fairly sure in 'this' era that Jordan Hill would himself be classified as a 'small ball 5'.
The only difference is, like I said, I feel, that you can ask Randle to shoot from mid or from three like you could Nance Jr but you couldn't ask Black.
To me as I said, small ball 5s are still 5s but the kind you don't run a half court set with, because imo small ball is a concept where you're trotting out a 'smaller' lineup in order to run a faster offense and are possibly forgoing half court traditionalism and potentially defense in order for you to take advantage of matchups at those positions.
And when I think of Tarik Black matched up against a 7 center that he is going to beat down the court and off pick and rolls and dives to the basket with ease I immediately think of the matchup advantage of 'small ball' and how it's being exploited
To some its more the player being pushed into a position one position higher than they are used to being used. To me it could be that but it's also in the style of play. No one inserts a small ball center to run any kind of half court set, its a style of play and lineup you use when you are trying to run the ball, not let the defense get set and are attacking from angles of fast defense attacking the D that way. But you aren't running many half court sets or in the pinch post which is what you'd do with your traditional center.
That's the lineup I see Black utilized as the 5 in and in that style.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
But to me personally if we're going to run a 'fast running up and down the court attacking the defense early' lineup, we could run Black at center and we have him for that reason.
If memory serves when we went small against Utah in the come back vs Utah in Kobe's final game, wasn't our lineup Nance at the 3, Randle at the 4 and Black at the 5?
But they can't run the same sets man; you know that Randle is way more dynamic offensively than Black. Halfcourt: Randle has innnfinitely more potential doing the Bogut top of the key passing. He's more adept to playmake on P/R doing half-rolls, too.
His quickness in the halfcourt with or without the ball(going to set screens) is a big advantage that we can utilize.
and he's able to push the ball up the court and initiate the offense. .
I have to go with KIROE on this one. Small ball is when you slide a player from a traditional position one or more numbers up to a traditionally bigger position. Moving a traditional SF like Deng to PF or a traditional PF like Randle or Nance to C would qualify. Skill set wise, Black is a Center, filling the same role as a Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan. He's smaller than those guys, making him a backup for the foreseeable future but his length for the C position is actually OK.
We'll have to agree to disagree then.
Because if they can run the same sets then thats what they should be called.
If you moved Randle to the 5 is there anything he's going to do that Tarik Black already can't when it comes to the pick and roll and screen setting? Yet Tarik only outweighs Randle by 10 pounds. And if it's because Randle mainly plays the 4, thats what we had Tarik Black play when we started Jordan Hill at the 5. And under any other circumstance I am fairly sure in 'this' era that Jordan Hill would himself be classified as a 'small ball 5'.
The only difference is, like I said, I feel, that you can ask Randle to shoot from mid or from three like you could Nance Jr but you couldn't ask Black.
To me as I said, small ball 5s are still 5s but the kind you don't run a half court set with, because imo small ball is a concept where you're trotting out a 'smaller' lineup in order to run a faster offense and are possibly forgoing half court traditionalism and potentially defense in order for you to take advantage of matchups at those positions.
And when I think of Tarik Black matched up against a 7 center that he is going to beat down the court and off pick and rolls and dives to the basket with ease I immediately think of the matchup advantage of 'small ball' and how it's being exploited
To some its more the player being pushed into a position one position higher than they are used to being used. To me it could be that but it's also in the style of play. No one inserts a small ball center to run any kind of half court set, its a style of play and lineup you use when you are trying to run the ball, not let the defense get set and are attacking from angles of fast defense attacking the D that way. But you aren't running many half court sets or in the pinch post which is what you'd do with your traditional center.
That's the lineup I see Black utilized as the 5 in and in that style.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
But to me personally if we're going to run a 'fast running up and down the court attacking the defense early' lineup, we could run Black at center and we have him for that reason.
If memory serves when we went small against Utah in the come back vs Utah in Kobe's final game, wasn't our lineup Nance at the 3, Randle at the 4 and Black at the 5?
But they can't run the same sets man; you know that Randle is way more dynamic offensively than Black. Halfcourt: Randle has innnfinitely more potential doing the Bogut top of the key passing. He's more adept to playmake on P/R doing half-rolls, too.
His quickness in the halfcourt with or without the ball(going to set screens) is a big advantage that we can utilize.
and he's able to push the ball up the court and initiate the offense. .
yet Jordan Hill can do none of those things, except run the floor and pick and roll in that case. Yet wouldn't you classify him as a small ball center?
Black would be classified as a small center, not a small ball center.
The concept of small ball isn't really apropos to the name small ball. Others have called it positionless basketball. Riley once described the future of the game being 5 6'10" players who can all shoot, handle and pass. That's closer to what small ball really is. Of course, if you have someone taller than that who has those skills, you use them, but it's still what some call small ball.
Black would be classified as a small center, not a small ball center.
The concept of small ball isn't really apropos to the name small ball. Others have called it positionless basketball. Riley once described the future of the game being 5 6'10" players who can all shoot, handle and pass. That's closer to what small ball really is. Of course, if you have someone taller than that who has those skills, you use them, but it's still what some call small ball.
AKA how I play 2k. That's one strategy to be OP in the game.
Black would be classified as a small center, not a small ball center.
The concept of small ball isn't really apropos to the name small ball. Others have called it positionless basketball. Riley once described the future of the game being 5 6'10" players who can all shoot, handle and pass. That's closer to what small ball really is. Of course, if you have someone taller than that who has those skills, you use them, but it's still what some call small ball.
Yeah. I think Milwaukee is trying to usher that in. We also have a relatively long team too in the future
DLO/JC 6'5, Ingram 6'9.
But more than just size, it's the skill set too. However, seems Lakers are going with traditional "centers" for the most part this year. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Larry Nance Jr. Returns To Training After Wrist Injury
Quote:
Heading into training camp, it’s possible that Nance will again challenge Randle to be the Lakers’ starting power forward. It will be up to Coach Luke Walton to determine which one gets the nod and if last season is any indication, it won’t be an easy decision. That said, having two quality young forward to deploy is a great problem for the Lakers to have, even if it does require a few tough choices.
Black would be classified as a small center, not a small ball center.
The concept of small ball isn't really apropos to the name small ball. Others have called it positionless basketball. Riley once described the future of the game being 5 6'10" players who can all shoot, handle and pass. That's closer to what small ball really is. Of course, if you have someone taller than that who has those skills, you use them, but it's still what some call small ball.
Yeah. I think Milwaukee is trying to usher that in. We also have a relatively long team too in the future
DLO/JC 6'5, Ingram 6'9.
But more than just size, it's the skill set too. However, seems Lakers are going with traditional "centers" for the most part this year.
I would consider Black a modern 5. Randle and nance as small ball 5's.
Well, I consider Black an undersized "traditional center." He's not a stretch shooter, nor does he take the ball off the dribble or pass. If he was 6'11 he'd be a monster. It just happens he has the wingspan of a bigger player but is 6'8.
I associate "modern/small ball Cs" with skillset. Black doesn't have that. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Black would be classified as a small center, not a small ball center.
The concept of small ball isn't really apropos to the name small ball. Others have called it positionless basketball. Riley once described the future of the game being 5 6'10" players who can all shoot, handle and pass. That's closer to what small ball really is. Of course, if you have someone taller than that who has those skills, you use them, but it's still what some call small ball.
Yeah. I think Milwaukee is trying to usher that in. We also have a relatively long team too in the future
DLO/JC 6'5, Ingram 6'9.
But more than just size, it's the skill set too. However, seems Lakers are going with traditional "centers" for the most part this year.
I would consider Black a modern 5. Randle and nance as small ball 5's.
Well, I consider Black an undersized "traditional center." He's not a stretch shooter, nor does he take the ball off the dribble or pass. If he was 6'11 he'd be a monster. It just happens he has the wingspan of a bigger player but is 6'8.
I associate "modern/small ball Cs" with skillset. Black doesn't have that.
Hes not a post center by any means and plays mostly pnr. Thats what the game has become and thats the reason i think he is a modern 5.
While small ball 5's usually have shooting, ball handling or agility that makes them what they are. Also Black is just too big to be a small ball 5 and too small to be a traditional 5.
Black will probably only be used in certain situations. B2B's, during injuries, while resting someone, and matchups that are too strong for nance/Randle but too fast for mosgov.
I can't really see his value as a rotational player with Randle and nance on the roster.
Black will probably only be used in certain situations. B2B's, during injuries, while resting someone, and matchups that are too strong for nance/Randle but too fast for mosgov.
I can't really see his value as a rotational player with Randle and nance on the roster.
I don't know. Wouldn't he be the first center off the bench after Mozgov? Zubac could outplay him for the spot but that would be down the road, at the earliest December/January.
I think Nance and Randle would take only spot minutes at center but not enough to leave Tarik without playing time.
Black will probably only be used in certain situations. B2B's, during injuries, while resting someone, and matchups that are too strong for nance/Randle but too fast for mosgov.
I can't really see his value as a rotational player with Randle and nance on the roster.
I don't know. Wouldn't he be the first center off the bench after Mozgov? Zubac could outplay him for the spot but that would be down the road, at the earliest December/January.
I think Nance and Randle would take only spot minutes at center but not enough to leave Tarik without playing time.
I think people forget that larry nance is a first round pick. He's going to get 30+ mpg if he starts or comes off the bench. however, I think Randle will be the one getting most of the backup minutes at center.
Black has a few more inches of wingspan but other than that he's not really bringing much else to the table that Randle cannot bring. In addition, with Ingram and nance (or deng) on the floor I think we have plenty of length to make up for what Randle would be giving up.
30 minutes for Randle
30 minutes for nance
24 minutes for mosgov
That leaves about 12 mpg for black, zubac and now Yi to compete over.
Black is arguably he least talented bigman on this roster and with nance and Randle he's also the most expendable.
Cool thing about the system is you have to have push the ball and you have to work hard on defense. Which means you'll get tired. No one on the warriors played over 35 minutes last year.
Only 4 guys played over 30, and you can guess who they were. And 11 guys played over 10 mins. I'm hoping everyone on the team is busting their butts on defense and we'll have multiple guys with +10 mins playing time.
Cool thing about the system is you have to have push the ball and you have to work hard on defense. Which means you'll get tired. No one on the warriors played over 35 minutes last year.
Only 4 guys played over 30, and you can guess who they were. And 11 guys played over 10 mins. I'm hoping everyone on the team is busting their butts on defense and we'll have multiple guys with +10 mins playing time.
Cool thing about the system is you have to have push the ball and you have to work hard on defense. Which means you'll get tired. No one on the warriors played over 35 minutes last year.
Only 4 guys played over 30, and you can guess who they were. And 11 guys played over 10 mins. I'm hoping everyone on the team is busting their butts on defense and we'll have multiple guys with +10 mins playing time.
Cool thing about the system is you have to have push the ball and you have to work hard on defense. Which means you'll get tired. No one on the warriors played over 35 minutes last year.
Only 4 guys played over 30, and you can guess who they were. And 11 guys played over 10 mins. I'm hoping everyone on the team is busting their butts on defense and we'll have multiple guys with +10 mins playing time.
I like it.
Btw, I have no facts to back this up.
Seems valid. I looked up a few stats myself just to see
Worth noting that bogut played ~ 20 mpg last season.
So the two main 7 footers only ate up 37 mpg split almost evenly. They do seem to lean heavily on their bench but they also blew a lot of teams out last season lol
Cool thing about the system is you have to have push the ball and you have to work hard on defense. Which means you'll get tired. No one on the warriors played over 35 minutes last year.
Only 4 guys played over 30, and you can guess who they were. And 11 guys played over 10 mins. I'm hoping everyone on the team is busting their butts on defense and we'll have multiple guys with +10 mins playing time.
I like it.
Btw, I have no facts to back this up.
I think Golden State excels defensively because they have guys who want to play defense and can play defense. Bogut, Barnes, Curry, Thompson, Iggy, Livingston, Green, Ezeli... their team is loaded with defenders. We need a few more guys that are capable and willing before we get anywhere near that level. The only guy who is a proven defender on the Lakers right now is Deng and he is on the tail end of his career. The good news is guys can develop on defense, hopefully they do.
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 3732 Location: The other side
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:22 pm Post subject:
This 'small ball' is so overrated....
You only play it if you don't have C to put in. And if the opponent has one, you pay the price.
I would have liked to see someone counter Shaq, backed up with Elden, with small ball. I so hope that the lineup of Mozgov, Zubac and Black is enough to go with good inside-out game around a productive C.
The Lakers way. _________________ .
Lakers depth chart
PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan
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