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tox
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 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | LeBron gets a pass on Wade after 2012, but I personally believe his history with Bosh and Love both is fairly conclusive---that Wade wasn't a superstar in 2012 in the playoffs (after some dominant playoff runs including a year before) is just cherry on the top when I consider whether LeBron's style of play marginalizes the talents of his teammates. |
Huh? Wade put up 23-5-4 in the playoffs on the way to the Heat winning a ring and you think he was marginalized? |
You know what? You're right. I was working off recollection but maybe 2013 & 2014 where he was marginalized (due to injuries) blurred into my memories. That and maybe some confirmation bias. The stats say otherwise, especially his USG%, which was plenty high.
But really, that does make a lot of sense --- Love & Bosh are the ones whose numbers are the most seriously impacted, as they were relegated more to spacers than allowing the offense to run through them. LeBron's game is predicated on good spacing to open up the court for him (hence his appalling efficiency post-Love's injury in the 2015 playoffs). Also explains why natural spacers like Big Z thrived next to LeBron.
Besides the ball not being in his hand as much (kind of a given) and having lower volume, Wade's game wasn't hurt too much playing next to LeBron. |
Bosh and Love went from being the top dogs on crappy teams to the #3 guy on a contender. That's not easy emotionally for a player. But that's life -- there are only so many touches to go around. And Love and Bosh are going to give up more touches than Lebron. |
Of course, but that doesn't contradict my argument. In fact, that is my point. Bosh and Love turned into less-efficient or at best equally-efficient players on far lower volume. It doesn't have to be that way, and it's a fair criticism of LeBron the most optimal use of a talented big man with him on the team is making that big man a floor spacer first. And the contention here has been that people use that as evidence that LeBron's supporting cast wasn't all that great in the first place, instead of it being a flaw of his game. |
With Boss, what happened is his role changed. Instead of being the low-post, #1 guy, he moved further out, so his rebounding went down a little and his shooting percentage went down a little because he was taking longer shots.
Sure, maybe that meant he didn't get his best possible personal stats, but it was his optimal use as far as benefitting the team. So if that's your point, I agree. If you are going to join two other stars who are better than you, the team is going to require you to adapt to them a little. And the result for Bosh was going from the king of a teams that didn't make the playoffs to being the third banana on two ring teams.
Some stars can adapt to moving from the 1 to 3 role; some can't.
Love's issue is more around his personal skillset not meshing as well with his teammates (particularly Irving). So it's still not clear what his optimal role is within the team makeup. |
It seems you think it's a criticism of Love/ Bosh's game that playing around LeBron means their talents as scoring options (besides spacing at the 3 point line) is not needed optimally. I disagree and think that's more a criticism of LeBron's game than anything else. His game is too predicated on spacing, and his performance tends to drop from his (exceptionally) high standards too much for it to be optimal for talented big men to operate in the post. See LeBron in a traditional, two non-shooting big man lineups in the 2015 playoff sans Love: an abysmal 49% TS% (and yes he was great otherwise but that's not the point). That's an unfair of a comparison, but I think the truth holds as a general rule of thumb (to a less extreme degree, of course)..
But that's a criticism, to me, of LeBron's game, not of Bosh or Love's.
But hey, maybe you're right. I only report what I see, and X's & O's aren't my strong point. I don't really see a convincing argument for your side, though. |
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saetarubia
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | It seems you think it's a criticism of Love/ Bosh's game that playing around LeBron means their talents as scoring options (besides spacing at the 3 point line) is not needed optimally. I disagree and think that's more a criticism of LeBron's game than anything else. |
I don't think it's a criticism of either Lebron's, Bosh's or Love's game. All of them have proven they can be the main guy on an NBA team (albeit not necessarily on a winning NBA team).
Many players have a style of play that suits them optimally, but they sometimes have to adjust for the benefit of the team (and to accommodate the team's superstar).
I mean, heck, on paper Baylor, West and Wilt should have won a bunch of rings, but they didn't mesh together well. Magic got the coach booted and his teammates changed to get the style of play that were ideal for his skills. This happens over and over in the NBA. |
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999
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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He is leaving Cleveland again 
Dan Gilbert deserves this treatment |
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marga86
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | It seems you think it's a criticism of Love/ Bosh's game that playing around LeBron means their talents as scoring options (besides spacing at the 3 point line) is not needed optimally. I disagree and think that's more a criticism of LeBron's game than anything else. |
I don't think it's a criticism of either Lebron's, Bosh's or Love's game. All of them have proven they can be the main guy on an NBA team (albeit not necessarily on a winning NBA team).
Many players have a style of play that suits them optimally, but they sometimes have to adjust for the benefit of the team (and to accommodate the team's superstar).
I mean, heck, on paper Baylor, West and Wilt should have won a bunch of rings, but they didn't mesh together well. Magic got the coach booted and his teammates changed to get the style of play that were ideal for his skills. This happens over and over in the NBA. |
there was a stat a year or two ago, not sure how accurate it was, but i heard it on XM, where someone broke down how players perform before and after lebron.. results did not favor lebron, by a lot. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 999 wrote: | He is leaving Cleveland again
Dan Gilbert deserves this treatment |
Could you imagine the legacy boost if Lebron came to a 3 time lottery Lakers team and got them in the Finals in a couple of years?
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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K28
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 999 wrote: | He is leaving Cleveland again
Dan Gilbert deserves this treatment |
Could you imagine the legacy boost if Lebron came to a 3 time lottery Lakers team and got them in the Finals in a couple of years? |
Lebron needs to stay away from the Lakers. Don't want him here. |
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lakers0505
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: |
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lol.
Lets add Lebron watch to the historic cap this offseason. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 999 wrote: | He is leaving Cleveland again
Dan Gilbert deserves this treatment |
Could you imagine the legacy boost if Lebron came to a 3 time lottery Lakers team and got them in the Finals in a couple of years? |
If it happened, it would be because he would have calculated beforehand that the team is set up for such a run with their cap space and young talent. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| If LeBron came here he would probably try to force a trade for a player he wants to play with in exchange for some of our assets, like he had done in Cleveland with Wiggins. |
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marga86
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| would absolutely be against getting lebron. |
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Mini Mamba
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| marga86 wrote: | | would absolutely be against getting lebron. |
Why? |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 999 wrote: | He is leaving Cleveland again
Dan Gilbert deserves this treatment |
Could you imagine the legacy boost if Lebron came to a 3 time lottery Lakers team and got them in the Finals in a couple of years? |
Lebron needs to stay away from the Lakers. Don't want him here. |
As a Laker fan I sure do.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | If LeBron came here he would probably try to force a trade for a player he wants to play with in exchange for some of our assets, like he had done in Cleveland with Wiggins. |
There wouldn't be need for a trade, we have cap space.
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | If LeBron came here he would probably try to force a trade for a player he wants to play with in exchange for some of our assets, like he had done in Cleveland with Wiggins. |
There wouldn't be need for a trade, we have cap space. |
You can't sign a contracted player with cap space, or maybe you can  . And what if he wants two players? |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: |
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We have cap space for two max salaries, and Lebron wouldn't be making roster decisions here. We would pursue any FA that he wanted to play with, but Mitch wouldn't make deals against his will to appease Lebron.
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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I think Lebron cares too much about his image and brand to bail out again. He was demonized briefly for leaving the Cavs but he only rejoined them because he knew he would be able to do so as a free pass under the guise that he is returning to help his hometown team (when in reality he was really bailing out on a team about to sink to a more promising young and up and coming team).
He he leaves again to a better team he will forever be labelled a bandwagon win-joiner. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: | I think Lebron cares too much about his image and brand to bail out again. He was demonized briefly for leaving the Cavs but he only rejoined them because he knew he would be able to do so as a free pass under the guise that he is returning to help his hometown team (when in reality he was really bailing out on a team about to sink to a more promising young and up and coming team).
He he leaves again to a better team he will forever be labelled a bandwagon win-joiner. |
This is how I feel, as well. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| marga86 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | It seems you think it's a criticism of Love/ Bosh's game that playing around LeBron means their talents as scoring options (besides spacing at the 3 point line) is not needed optimally. I disagree and think that's more a criticism of LeBron's game than anything else. |
I don't think it's a criticism of either Lebron's, Bosh's or Love's game. All of them have proven they can be the main guy on an NBA team (albeit not necessarily on a winning NBA team).
Many players have a style of play that suits them optimally, but they sometimes have to adjust for the benefit of the team (and to accommodate the team's superstar).
I mean, heck, on paper Baylor, West and Wilt should have won a bunch of rings, but they didn't mesh together well. Magic got the coach booted and his teammates changed to get the style of play that were ideal for his skills. This happens over and over in the NBA. |
there was a stat a year or two ago, not sure how accurate it was, but i heard it on XM, where someone broke down how players perform before and after lebron.. results did not favor lebron, by a lot. |
That's such a vague, sweeping generalization I can't attach any importance to it. I need to know the specific stat/study you're talking about in order to determine if it has any value. |
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999
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | We have cap space for two max salaries, and Lebron wouldn't be making roster decisions here. We would pursue any FA that he wanted to play with, but Mitch wouldn't make deals against his will to appease Lebron. |
LeBron will only come here depending on the other max salary player...
lets say it is Kevin Durant... I could see Lebron coming to Los Angeles
than fill in the role players: maybe Pau Gasol returns to finish off his career... so many possibilities for 2017 |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: | I think Lebron cares too much about his image and brand to bail out again. He was demonized briefly for leaving the Cavs but he only rejoined them because he knew he would be able to do so as a free pass under the guise that he is returning to help his hometown team (when in reality he was really bailing out on a team about to sink to a more promising young and up and coming team).
He he leaves again to a better team he will forever be labelled a bandwagon win-joiner. |
Personally, I don't think Lebron ever had any intention to leave the Cavs. He's going to exercise his opt-out to resign for more money and that's it.
That said, I would love to see him sign somewhere else just to see what the reaction was. Would people be outraged or have we reached a point that fans finally accept that athletes act in their own self-interest and don't really care which jersey they wear? |
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kwase
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The only way lebron would join the Lakers is if Magic, Kareem and Worthy were still playing, with Kobe coming off the bench. That boy doesn't have the cajones to take a team from the bottom to the top. It's not a part of who he is deep down inside, which is why any comparison of him to Kobe or MJ is laughable at best. |
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Gatekeeper
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | It seems you think it's a criticism of Love/ Bosh's game that playing around LeBron means their talents as scoring options (besides spacing at the 3 point line) is not needed optimally. I disagree and think that's more a criticism of LeBron's game than anything else. |
I don't think it's a criticism of either Lebron's, Bosh's or Love's game. All of them have proven they can be the main guy on an NBA team (albeit not necessarily on a winning NBA team).
Many players have a style of play that suits them optimally, but they sometimes have to adjust for the benefit of the team (and to accommodate the team's superstar).
I mean, heck, on paper Baylor, West and Wilt should have won a bunch of rings, but they didn't mesh together well. Magic got the coach booted and his teammates changed to get the style of play that were ideal for his skills. This happens over and over in the NBA. |
This is my point. You are expected "to accommodate the team's superstar" of course, but to what extent? My argument has been if that superstar is LeBron, that accommodation involves greater sacrifice of one's strengths (well, at least for Love/ Bosh). And that's fair criticism of LeBron's game.
No comment on the rest.
Last edited by tox on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ksmgf
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| 999 wrote: | He is leaving Cleveland again
Dan Gilbert deserves this treatment |
Please let this be true. (bleep) Dan Gilbert |
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