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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Jim99187 wrote: | greenfrog wrote: | ElginBaylor wrote: | MJST wrote: | Yes he is a rim protector ... he is also statistically one of the worst in the league at center and gives up more points there than Cousins whom people knock for his defense.
I think there was a reason the Lakers barely gave any effort towards signing him or pitching to hom when they had Hibbert in their back pocket.
Hibbert has remained top 3 in the league at his position in defending and rim protection, even in a down year like last year whike Deanfre pretty much near the bottom.
Consider that Hibbert by himself made Indiana a top 7 defense team last year and DeAndre with CP3 and so.some other wings and a deep team and they were 15th.. that's on the border of being bottom half of the league... that says a lot imo. |
Here are the questions rolling around in my mind regarding good and bad defenders. I can understand being a poor defender because of physical limitations, for example size, either lack of or too much. But outside of that, I would say team defense largely relies on coaching. So when I hear of an individual, who is considered athletic at the level of being professional and paid millions because of their athleticism, not being a good defender, I've got to wonder how much of that is due to motivation and emphasis on defense in the system being run. CP3, as was Kobe in his prime, can be an elite defender simply because he's a great athlete. Russell, Clarkson, Randle, Hibbert, Black, are all exceptional athletes. Seems to me there's no reason they can't be exceptional defenders given the proper coaching. |
I wouldn't describe Russell and Black's athleticism as exceptional. Randle might be in the category, but he doesn't have great length.
To your main point, motivation is internal. If you have a bunch of lazy guys who don't want to play defense nothing the coach can do or say will magically transform that.
Schemes... now that's on coaching. |
u talking of wes johnson? all talent/attributes in the world but no internal desire |
Well... I think Wes may have A.D.D. actually. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Not sure I agree with the notion that Wes J had no internal desire. Most of the NBA guys do, it's just that they have varying level of skills, and some, but not all, motivation issues.
I think the problem with Wes is low BBALL IQ. When you simplify the game for and tell him to play D, shoot open 3s, run the court, he will be fine. Last year, with no pre-defined role, he really wilted. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Jim99187 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014 Posts: 22138
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:00 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Not sure I agree with the notion that Wes J had no internal desire. Most of the NBA guys do, it's just that they have varying level of skills, and some, but not all, motivation issues.
I think the problem with Wes is low BBALL IQ. When you simplify the game for and tell him to play D, shoot open 3s, run the court, he will be fine. Last year, with no pre-defined role, he really wilted. |
this is not true. he had a defined role. to play defense which he was below mediocre |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure Wes worked his ass off last season and offseason. The mental game just wasn't there, and in a different way than Hibbert and Lin putting too much pressure on themselves. It looked like either he was constantly daydreaming, or couldn't process what was going on on the court fast enough. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Not sure I agree with the notion that Wes J had no internal desire. Most of the NBA guys do, it's just that they have varying level of skills, and some, but not all, motivation issues.
I think the problem with Wes is low BBALL IQ. When you simplify the game for and tell him to play D, shoot open 3s, run the court, he will be fine. Last year, with no pre-defined role, he really wilted. |
this is not true. he had a defined role. to play defense which he was below mediocre |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Jim99187 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014 Posts: 22138
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:19 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). |
how many years he has been surviving on just physical tools and athleticism? nothing else.
if he had the desire he would be in video room. watching tapes. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). |
how many years he has been surviving on just physical tools and athleticism? nothing else.
if he had the desire he would be in video room. watching tapes. |
What good does that do if you are incapable of processing and using information? I don't like bagging on Wes. He seems like a good dude. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). |
how many years he has been surviving on just physical tools and athleticism? nothing else.
if he had the desire he would be in video room. watching tapes. |
You're making my point. He puts in the work but just doesn't have the basketball smarts. I wouldn't conflate that with "internal desire." _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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22 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 17063
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). |
how many years he has been surviving on just physical tools and athleticism? nothing else.
if he had the desire he would be in video room. watching tapes. |
You're making my point. He puts in the work but just doesn't have the basketball smarts. I wouldn't conflate that with "internal desire." |
Agreed. Just to make the NBA requires a lot of internal desire. He either can't figure the game out or has trouble staying consistently focused enough to play at his potential |
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ElginBaylor Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 10772 Location: Hoosier Nation
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:11 am Post subject: |
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So coaching has nothing to do with internal motivation? Seems to me that PJax main strength as a coach was all about internal motivation, and he's the most successful coach of all time. A good coach motivates his players to want to perform at their highest level, and that includes the desire to grow as a defender. _________________ Not a legend |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: |
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ElginBaylor wrote: | So coaching has nothing to do with internal motivation? Seems to me that PJax main strength as a coach was all about internal motivation, and he's the most successful coach of all time. A good coach motivates his players to want to perform at their highest level, and that includes the desire to grow as a defender. |
I think that aspect of Phil (the incense, the funny video cuts, etc.) was highly overrated. Tell me what player he turned into a defensive beast that slacked off the moment he left?
At the same time Phil probably doesn't get enough credit for his actual basketball acumen, particularly his ability to make corrections between games. |
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Jim99187 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014 Posts: 22138
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). |
how many years he has been surviving on just physical tools and athleticism? nothing else.
if he had the desire he would be in video room. watching tapes. |
You're making my point. He puts in the work but just doesn't have the basketball smarts. I wouldn't conflate that with "internal desire." |
on what basis? internal desire makes somebody be in the gym and not leaving until u make 1000 shots or take them.
he worked out with kobe sure. but i havent read a report saying wes johnson was/is in the gym and is a gym rat.
he also might have gotten a favor workout from kobe cause they use to share the same agent.
neither i have heard him spending time watching the tape and trying to learn |
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44 Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Aug 2015 Posts: 115
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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ElginBaylor wrote: | So coaching has nothing to do with internal motivation? Seems to me that PJax main strength as a coach was all about internal motivation, and he's the most successful coach of all time. A good coach motivates his players to want to perform at their highest level, and that includes the desire to grow as a defender. |
+1 |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29152 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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You know how cars have a limiter on them so a person can't drive faster than 120-130 MPH. Even if the speedometer goes higher.
That's what I envision Roy Hibbert being for Kobe.
If I was coaching I would match those guys minutes in the rotation.
Hibbert can only play 2 quarters a game (perfect, Kobe shouldn't play much more than that).
Hibbert likes playing at a slower pace (so does Kobe).
And the 2 quarters a game neither Hibbert or Kobe plays, the young guys can play at the uptempo speed they will inevitably prefer. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26088
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hibbert and Kobe playing 28-30 mins a game would be ideal. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | You know how cars have a limiter on them so a person can't drive faster than 120-130 MPH. Even if the speedometer goes higher.
That's what I envision Roy Hibbert being for Kobe.
If I was coaching I would match those guys minutes in the rotation.
Hibbert can only play 2 quarters a game (perfect, Kobe shouldn't play much more than that).
Hibbert likes playing at a slower pace (so does Kobe).
And the 2 quarters a game neither Hibbert or Kobe plays, the young guys can play at the uptempo speed they will inevitably prefer. |
I've been advocating this approach for some time. It would have been helpful if they had put any priority on resigning Ed Davis in that he would be an ideal center for a young, uptempo lineup to grow with, but alas we have Lou... |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Jim99187 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: |
So how do you know he has no "internal desire." He worked out with Kobe the summer before. He's in phenomenal shape every year.
It's mental to me and he's just not a smart bball player who got away with athleticism at college (and being 2-3 years older than others). |
how many years he has been surviving on just physical tools and athleticism? nothing else.
if he had the desire he would be in video room. watching tapes. |
You're making my point. He puts in the work but just doesn't have the basketball smarts. I wouldn't conflate that with "internal desire." |
on what basis? internal desire makes somebody be in the gym and not leaving until u make 1000 shots or take them.
he worked out with kobe sure. but i havent read a report saying wes johnson was/is in the gym and is a gym rat.
he also might have gotten a favor workout from kobe cause they use to share the same agent.
neither i have heard him spending time watching the tape and trying to learn |
So because you haven't heard a report say that Wes isn't a gym rat you say he has no "internal desire." _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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pio2u Retired Number
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pio2u Retired Number
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:23 am Post subject: |
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People just trying to find a reason to knock the Lakers. Even if Hibbert stays at a similar level to where he was last year, he fills a gigantic need for the team. |
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Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: |
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ESPN haters. I like the R-Hib deal. What ever, more motivation for the team to prove them wrong. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
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Jim99187 Franchise Player
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:53 am Post subject: |
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what do u expect espn to say? |
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lukewaltonsdad Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 Posts: 2983
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Hibbert is going bring a very positive impact for this team. We have a true rim protecting 5 out there; he's going to anchor our improved defense this year. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:59 am Post subject: |
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greenfrog wrote: | kikanga wrote: | You know how cars have a limiter on them so a person can't drive faster than 120-130 MPH. Even if the speedometer goes higher.
That's what I envision Roy Hibbert being for Kobe.
If I was coaching I would match those guys minutes in the rotation.
Hibbert can only play 2 quarters a game (perfect, Kobe shouldn't play much more than that).
Hibbert likes playing at a slower pace (so does Kobe).
And the 2 quarters a game neither Hibbert or Kobe plays, the young guys can play at the uptempo speed they will inevitably prefer. |
I've been advocating this approach for some time. It would have been helpful if they had put any priority on resigning Ed Davis in that he would be an ideal center for a young, uptempo lineup to grow with, but alas we have Lou... |
We have Black _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
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I think Hibbert was a good pick up, but part of me wonders why he was so easy to get. Too bad ESPN doesn't offer any explanation for why they have him ranked that way. |
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