2015-16 X's and O's Discussion
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: 2015-16 X's and O's Discussion

With all the excitement and anticipation for our new players and today's game, I decided to get the X's and O's thread started earlier this year. I see a lot of knowledgeable posters being active these days, so hopefully more can chime in on what they see on the court.

I'll start by trying to fill out a Lakers video playbook with the half court sets from the footage of the 5v5 scrimmage.

Chin to High PnR
Cut from the initiating guard to the weakside corner, and the other guard runs a high PnR with the big who set the backscreen.


Lakers running it last season:
http://on.nba.com/1fu21Rj

Side pick and roll


High pick and roll


Pindown
Basic pindown, which they usually run out of a 1-4 high post set.


10-15
Pick and roll where the weakside big man does a roll-replace, gets the ball and then pitches to the guard on the weak side and screens for another pick and roll. The name comes from Byron mentioning it last season.

Last year


Chin motion
Princeton derived motion set.


Triangle high post split (probably)


All in all, nothing we haven't seen from them in the past year. There wasn't much in the way of secondary options. I would have liked to see them work more on ball movement- driving gaps, kicking out, and swinging to open shooters- regardless of what sets they use. Defensive floor balance on some of the possessions was kind of worrying too.

However, I'd like to stress that it's extremely early, and they likely haven't had time to get creative yet, or iron out the kinks. From the new roster alone, spacing and ball movement should be much improved this year.


Last edited by fiendishoc on Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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22
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject:

Loved this thread last year. Looking forward to it this season! Hopefully with some more advanced sets. And hopefully the team can begin get to those secondary options as a lot more of the players are long term, and they can build some chemistry and momentum in the system
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Rivershow
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject:

Mark Madsen in his most recent interview said that Byron was looking to implement new stuff. I am hoping that he watched some of GS's offense and wants to implement that into our playbook.(wishful thinking)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:15 am    Post subject:

Assuming a Hibbert/ Randle/ Kobe/ Jordan/ DAR starting 5, we essentially have:

Post-up players: 3 (Hibbert, Randle, Kobe)

Wing iso players: 4 (Kobe, Randle, DAR, Jordan)

Drive and pass players: 3 (Kobe, DAR, Jordan)

Slashers/ finishers: 3 (Randle, DAR, Jordan - sorry Kobe)

Kick-out 3-pt shooters: 2 (Kobe, DAR)

Mid-range dump-off shooters: 4 (Kobe, Randle, DAR, Jordan)

Corner 3s: 1 (DAR, although Williams will certainly count)

Here's hoping we get half-court sets that emphasize spacing and SMART motion that takes advantage of the slashing and post-up threats we have, and not merely motion for the sake of looking busy.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject:

Rivershow wrote:
Mark Madsen in his most recent interview said that Byron was looking to implement new stuff. I am hoping that he watched some of GS's offense and wants to implement that into our playbook.(wishful thinking)


Yeah I heard that interview too. It sounded like they were going to put in more from Byron's old stuff, rather than look around the league for ideas, but I hope I'm wrong.

On first (casual) viewing, I didn't notice anything new in the first summer league game, but I'll take a look again later.
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:22 pm    Post subject:

Look forward to the continuing development of this thread!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:23 am    Post subject:

On second viewing, there was some stuff from the first summer league game that I don't recall seeing last year, which is encouraging.

Horns elbow variation

The PG went weak side this time to set the staggered pindown screen. Last season, it was a strong side high post split every time. I would have liked to see Nance clear out a bit more to give more space for the roll, but cheers for variety.

"45"
They ran this in the second quarter with one of the backup guards. This is a semi-horns set where the two bigs pinch the PG's defender with closely set screens on both sides, letting the guard choose a direction. The Clippers ran it pretty successfully in the playoffs, and I'm excited to see what Russell can do with it.
Clippers:


Standard sets
Otherwise, they ran some standard stuff, including floppy sets, flex, pinch post, and isolations. Their floppy's looked different from what I remember. Now it's more the conventional NBA style where the passing guard stays out for a return pass or spot-up, rather than the bizarre strong side cut they did last year that got in the way

Last year -


Defense
Defense was the biggest problem tonight, and likely will be for the rest of the year. They started to get in the trouble in the late 2nd and early 3rd quarters when they were isolating Randle ineffectively on offense, and then overhelping from the perimeter on the other side, especially in doubling Towns.




They were telegraphing the help on the catch, bringing a guard over from a distance, which made it easy for a good passer like Towns to pick apart. Sometimes they even triple teamed him. At one point Tarik Black called off the doubles himself and had some success in single coverage. I know they could have just been practicing the doubles, but if they were really concerned about his post scoring, they probably would have done better denying the entry pass from the front while zoning the paint, and forcing a catch further out.

It's a lot easier to have the help already in position and then recover out, rather than running in from the outside, where there's no chance of recovering. That goes for their help on pick and rolls and on penetration as well. Seeing the defense run off the corner three to stop penetration brought back bad memories from early last year.

And finally, they had Upshaw go up on the pick and roll with his slow lateral movement and Randle back to protect the rim (and who didn't even lift a finger), which doesn't make sense at all:


But it's hard to know which were breakdowns and which were part of the scheme, given what little practice time they've had . Coach Madsen mentioned they had a lot of blown rotations, so let's see if they tighten things up tomorrow.


Last edited by fiendishoc on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rivershow
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject:

I'm glad to see that they are actually inserting new offensive schemes. Maybe we'll look like a regular offense next year. Thanks for the writeup fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject:

It appeared that several times they were running their Pistol Offense sets

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tszCtLl_cbI
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:54 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
It appeared that several times they were running their Pistol Offense sets

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tszCtLl_cbI


I wish that were the case but I don't think they were. Likely, those handoffs were part of their Princeton sets.

I'm a big fan of Pistol, especially in early offense, because it's hard for the defense to stop the screen roll going middle if it's timed correctly. They really should mix these in with drag screens to attack defenses before they're set and play to our rosters' strengths.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject:

love this thread, learned a lot last year...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:57 pm    Post subject:

We have 14 assists in 2 games. Russell has 9 of them. The Chin sets are some of the most frustrating, time wasting, and pointless sets I've seen on this level. I'm not even sure what they're supposed to accomplish. Such stagnant bullcrap.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:58 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
We have 14 assists in 2 games. Russell has 9 of them. The Chin sets are some of the most frustrating, time wasting, and pointless sets I've seen on this level. I'm not even sure what they're supposed to accomplish. Such stagnant bullcrap.

It's horrible.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject:

I'm officially done with our current system lol.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject:

The intent of the offense may be to encourage movement and open shots through team play, but the result is just more isos after it fails to produce anything.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:34 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
We have 14 assists in 2 games. Russell has 9 of them. The Chin sets are some of the most frustrating, time wasting, and pointless sets I've seen on this level. I'm not even sure what they're supposed to accomplish. Such stagnant bullcrap.


What it accomplishes is running at least 14 seconds off the clock to get the ball from one guard to the other, or even back to the same guard. It also puts a non-shooting center up high where is defender can clog the lane. Basically the antithesis of pace and space.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
The intent of the offense may be to encourage movement and open shots through team play, but the result is just more isos after it fails to produce anything.


I can't think of a single basket that we've gotten that was a result of systemic creation. Everything's a grind.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:38 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
We have 14 assists in 2 games. Russell has 9 of them. The Chin sets are some of the most frustrating, time wasting, and pointless sets I've seen on this level. I'm not even sure what they're supposed to accomplish. Such stagnant bullcrap.


What it accomplishes is running at least 14 seconds off the clock to get the ball from one guard to the other, or even back to the same guard. It also puts a non-shooting center up high where is defender can clog the lane. Basically the antithesis of pace and space.


Yep. I loved how Madsen's big play out of a timeout in the last minute involved putting the ball in Upshaw's hands at the top of the key.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:38 pm    Post subject:

What a horrible system. Just an utter waste of our talent. Please give us a new inspired coaching change in 2016.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject:

I'm all in favor of GT or fiendishoc taking over the offensive playbook. Someone send in their resumes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject:

there was an awkward moment when Reggie Miller grilled Byron on his dislike for the 3pt shot and style of play... and I cringed, and Reggie's head almost exploded. Byron was smug as usual.

lol
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
We have 14 assists in 2 games. Russell has 9 of them. The Chin sets are some of the most frustrating, time wasting, and pointless sets I've seen on this level. I'm not even sure what they're supposed to accomplish. Such stagnant bullcrap.


Chin? You're also against Lin and Kim and Chengs. Racist.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:46 pm    Post subject:

The discouraging part is that, these players are main cogs going forward and we already see that Byron doesn't know how to use them right. maybe it gets a little better, but the coaching staff should have been much more prepared in utilizing the Russell Clarkson duo creatively/optimally.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:53 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
The discouraging part is that, these players are main cogs going forward and we already see that Byron doesn't know how to use them right. maybe it gets a little better, but the coaching staff should have been much more prepared in utilizing the Russell Clarkson duo creatively/optimally.


I might be wrong, but wasn't the point of the Princeton to hide talent deficiencies? We're sure doing a great job of making it look like we don't have any talent on the floor. It's giving our guys nothing to work with.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject:

It's not as if it's a secret or anything as to what the successful teams are running these days:

http://team.fastmodelsports.com/2015/07/10/san-antonios-influence-on-nba-xs-os/


Last edited by fiendishoc on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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