You have the initial wing pass, the pass back to the trailing big, and the cut to the weak side for the guard. This followed by a screen the screener action inside which frees up Jabari Brown for an open 3 on the down screen. If he didn't shoot, he could then gone straight into a high pick and roll with decent spacing.
Is it a sign that they are finally joining the rest of the league in adopting sets from the Spurs? Hopefully, but I never saw it again from them after that. I would have liked to see the team run it several times to work through the different options. It's a heck of a lot better than the Princeton sets that they were trying in the previous games, and would fit the Lakers' regular season personnel pretty well.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:53 am Post subject:
^ I remembered there was some screen the screener (STS) action in the first game, so I fast forwarded through to see if any of it was Motion Weak. Turns out they ran it one time, and on several other possessions, ran a slower developing version of it.
I see a couple things here that temper my excitement a bit. The Lakers don't even look for the first two options, even though Upshaw was open on the cross screen. And then when the shot off the down screen isn't there, instead of setting a high pick, Nance just clears out like it's an isolation, and the play resets when Mitchell calls for the screen.
This tells me that the coaching staff may have turned this into another one of their read and react motion sets that he took the read and react part out of, running it as a play to get a top of the key jumper- sort of like their Triangle sets. It's like diagramming a complicated football play with a lot of motion, and then telling your quarterback beforehand which receiver to throw it to, and when. I hope I'm wrong about this though.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:12 am Post subject:
Motion weak is exactly the set I want to see. Perfect with clarkson and russell, and both hibbert and Randle can make simple and easy reads and passes from the free throw line area.
This is a great post, Very informative and also debatable!
The Princeton has been around for some time and quite a few coaches have come to use it in their offensive schemes of course no more successful than Mr. Princeton himself Coach Pete Carril.
IMO the keys to this offense will definitely contribute to the Lakers team this year. This offense is predicated on "PLAYERS". One thing I've learned early on in coaching that in order to be successful, you have to have players in the right position. So for example the Princeton is built on the basis of ball movement and player movement and constant motion, so you have to be able to read and react as well, but the key is simply this. In order for the offense to be effective, each player on the court should have a high level of skillset in the the following areas: Passing, Shooting the Ball and Dribbling.
If you can get those three core pieces out of 5 players on the court at one time your Princeton offense can be really effective.
Let's look at the Lakers probable starting five and see where they fall with those three catagories:
D'Angelo Russell (Pass, Shoot, Dribble [PSD])
Jordan Clarkson (PSD)
Kobe Bryant (PSD)
Julius Randle (PSD)
Roy Hibbert (Here is where the problem lies but not really)
Hibbert isn't a hybrid of any sort but his focus is on the defensive end, but consider the recent free agent acquisitions and our bench.
Brandon Bass (PSD)
Bass can come in and help down low with Randle and then we have a formidable core for the Princeton, but we lack size.
Remeber that offense and defense just isn't about X's and O's but about strategy and that starts with personnel and the ability to put players in position where they can have the greatest level of success!
This is a great post, Very informative and also debatable!
The Princeton has been around for some time and quite a few coaches have come to use it in their offensive schemes of course no more successful than Mr. Princeton himself Coach Pete Carril.
IMO the keys to this offense will definitely contribute to the Lakers team this year. This offense is predicated on "PLAYERS". One thing I've learned early on in coaching that in order to be successful, you have to have players in the right position. So for example the Princeton is built on the basis of ball movement and player movement and constant motion, so you have to be able to read and react as well, but the key is simply this. In order for the offense to be effective, each player on the court should have a high level of skillset in the the following areas: Passing, Shooting the Ball and Dribbling.
If you can get those three core pieces out of 5 players on the court at one time your Princeton offense can be really effective.
Let's look at the Lakers probable starting five and see where they fall with those three catagories:
D'Angelo Russell (Pass, Shoot, Dribble [PSD])
Jordan Clarkson (PSD)
Kobe Bryant (PSD)
Julius Randle (PSD)
Roy Hibbert (Here is where the problem lies but not really)
Hibbert isn't a hybrid of any sort but his focus is on the defensive end, but consider the recent free agent acquisitions and our bench.
Brandon Bass (PSD)
Bass can come in and help down low with Randle and then we have a formidable core for the Princeton, but we lack size.
Remeber that offense and defense just isn't about X's and O's but about strategy and that starts with personnel and the ability to put players in position where they can have the greatest level of success!
Any offense is good when you have 5 players who can pass, shoot, & dribble. This phrase is often said about Princeton, and I think it demonstrates the issues with Princeton more than the benefit of it.
... which would be a good one to run for Randle, assuming it's a variation with the players inbounds (there was a rule change because of what George Karl was doing).
... which would be a good one to run for Randle, assuming it's a variation with the players inbounds (there was a rule change because of what George Karl was doing).
Pick and Pop to the weakside to provide space and limited double-teams would be great set for Randle
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:23 am Post subject:
Randle needs that jumper to pick and pop, which also opens up the delayed roll/cut, and the swing pass for a face up attack.
Just for fun, with Randle's handling and passing skills, would be interesting to see him be the ballhandler on some unconventional pick and roll actions.
Randle needs that jumper to pick and pop, which also opens up the delayed roll/cut, and the swing pass for a face up attack.
Just for fun, with Randle's handling and passing skills, would be interesting to see him be the ballhandler on some unconventional pick and roll actions.
Seems like MadDog was already trying him in the LO role of bringing up the ball in the last SPL game
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:11 am Post subject:
The discussion regarding Russell vs Clarkson as lead guard keeps popping up, and while I do believe that they should switch off depending on who is in the position to initiate earlier, I believe that Russell will be the better choice to run the PnR so long as he has the proper spacing to do so.
I wanted to break down the following back to back identical plays run by Russell and Clarkson sequentially vs the Mavs in Summer league. High PnR defended by blitzing, with the weak side help in early position to bump the roll man.
They even make the same read, passing to the weak side wing. However, in the first play, Russell recognizes it and makes the play a second earlier, which makes all the difference. The ball is delivered to the wing right when the bumping defender is trying to make contact with the roll man, which means he has to abandon his bump and scramble back to the shooter. That forces a rotation off the corner to stop the unimpeded roll man under the basket or else the it's an easy inside pass for the dunk, and an easy swing pass nets Jabari a WIDE open corner three. Russell has a hockey assist that won't show up in the traditional box score.
On the second play, Clarkson's first instinct is to attack, but gets trapped. He makes the same pass over to Russell, but it's a bit later, and Russell's defender has time to both bump the roll man and then close out. Russell does create off the pump fake and then makes an assist again to Brown, giving Clarkson a hockey assist as well, but that's besides the point. This was much less efficient sequence from a degree of difficulty standpoint. It's not even a bad play from Clarkson, who did what he's supposed to do. But it's an example of Russell being able to create something even better.
The Lakers were dead last in hockey assists last year, as well as open shots (not to mention severely lacking in creating corner threes). A lot of this was because of the offensive scheme, but it's something that can be offset with passing ability that can catch defenses off balance. Once Russell gets through his early rookie adjustment period to the NBA, he should have the ball in his hands to make things easier for everyone.
Last edited by fiendishoc on Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
The discussion regarding Russell vs Clarkson as lead guard keeps popping up, and while I do believe that they should switch off depending on who is in the position to initiate earlier, I believe that Russell will be the better choice to run the PnR so long as he has the proper spacing to do so.
I wanted to break down the following back to back identical plays run by Russell and Clarkson sequentially vs the Mavs in Summer league. High PnR defended by blitzing, with the weak side help in early position to bump the roll man.
They even make the same read, passing to the weak side wing. However, in the first play, Russell recognizes it and makes the play a second earlier, which makes all the difference. The ball is delivered to the wing right when the bumping defender is trying to make contact with the roll man, which means he has to abandon his bump and scramble back to the shooter. That forces a rotation off the corner to stop the unimpeded roll man under the basket or else the it's an easy inside pass for the dunk, and an easy swing pass nets Jabari a WIDE open corner three. Russell has a hockey assist that won't show up in the traditional box score.
On the second play, Clarkson's first instinct is to attack, but gets trapped. He makes the same pass over to Russell, but it's a bit later, and Russell's defender has time to both bump the roll man and then close out. Russell does create off the pump fake and then makes an assist again to Brown, giving Clarkson a hockey assist as well, but that's besides the point. This was much less efficient sequence from a degree of difficulty standpoint. It's not even a bad play from Clarkson, who did what he's supposed to do. But it's an example of Russell being able to create something even better.
The Lakers were dead last in hockey assists last year, as well as open shots (not to mention severely lacking in creating corner threes). A lot of this was because of the offensive scheme, but it's something that can be offset with passing ability that can catch defenses off balance. Once Russell gets through his early rookie adjustment period to the NBA, he should have the ball in his hands to make things easier for everyone.
I agree with your assessment
Maybe Clarkson and Russell can learn from each other because they have the same skill set but different mentality.
Maybe Russell, Clarkson and Randle can become a version of the old Run TMC?
Hopefully Nash's session with Russell/Clarkson will be able to get Randle into the Stoudamaire role.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29353 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
The discussion regarding Russell vs Clarkson as lead guard keeps popping up, and while I do believe that they should switch off depending on who is in the position to initiate earlier, I believe that Russell will be the better choice to run the PnR so long as he has the proper spacing to do so.
I wanted to break down the following back to back identical plays run by Russell and Clarkson sequentially vs the Mavs in Summer league. High PnR defended by blitzing, with the weak side help in early position to bump the roll man.
They even make the same read, passing to the weak side wing. However, in the first play, Russell recognizes it and makes the play a second earlier, which makes all the difference. The ball is delivered to the wing right when the bumping defender is trying to make contact with the roll man, which means he has to abandon his bump and scramble back to the shooter. That forces a rotation off the corner to stop the unimpeded roll man under the basket or else the it's an easy inside pass for the dunk, and an easy swing pass nets Jabari a WIDE open corner three. Russell has a hockey assist that won't show up in the traditional box score.
On the second play, Clarkson's first instinct is to attack, but gets trapped. He makes the same pass over to Russell, but it's a bit later, and Russell's defender has time to both bump the roll man and then close out. Russell does create off the pump fake and then makes an assist again to Brown, giving Clarkson a hockey assist as well, but that's besides the point. This was much less efficient sequence from a degree of difficulty standpoint. It's not even a bad play from Clarkson, who did what he's supposed to do. But it's an example of Russell being able to create something even better.
The Lakers were dead last in hockey assists last year, as well as open shots (not to mention severely lacking in creating corner threes). A lot of this was because of the offensive scheme, but it's something that can be offset with passing ability that can catch defenses off balance. Once Russell gets through his early rookie adjustment period to the NBA, he should have the ball in his hands to make things easier for everyone.
The links don't work anymore _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29353 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
^Updated with new video links, although they don't show the start of the plays
Thanks! I see what you're talking about.
You're right DLo's timing on the pass is better.
He forces one more defender to be accountable for rotating as opposed to Clarkson's pass. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Russell has pass first mentality. He keeps finding his teammates when having the ball with him. His height also allow him to make lay up or take shot easily over defender after cutting into the paint. He should try to develop chemistry with the teammates, especially with Randle, to be one of the best duo or trio in the league.
Clarkson, after a great rookie season, could model his game like Green of Spurs or Beal of Wizards. Run fast break, hit 3s and play defense is what he have to add to his game.
Randle has nice face to basket offensive skill. Couple with his physical tools, he could be hard to stop when playing with a good point guard like Russell.
Russell has pass first mentality. He keeps finding his teammates when having the ball with him. His height also allow him to make lay up or take shot easily over defender after cutting into the paint. He should try to develop chemistry with the teammates, especially with Randle, to be one of the best duo or trio in the league.
Clarkson, after a great rookie season, could model his game like Green of Spurs or Beal of Wizards. Run fast break, hit 3s and play defense is what he have to add to his game.
Randle has nice face to basket offensive skill. Couple with his physical tools, he could be hard to stop when playing with a good point guard like Russell.
I don't think Clarkson is a catch and shoot player, and nowhere near the shooter as Green (from 3) and Beal (in general). He's a slasher. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Clarkson would model his game on Ginobili or Joe Johnson. Other than slash, his 3s and defense are much needed.
I like what the team are built: with Russell and Randle mainly carrying the offensive responsibility, the team need defensive and versatile players on 2, 3 and 5. Clarkson and Hibbert fit the needs well. Really hope the team could land like Paul George. Deng or Barnes from Warriors fits too.
Russell is Magic, Hardaway, Nash type of player. Great court version, tall, nice jumper, pass first but has nicescoring skill. He could be very special. Randle is very special too. Strong, very explosive, with nice face to basket scoring skill. With Russell, Clarkson and Randle are hard to stop on fast break.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject:
drk3351 wrote:
Hey Lakers fans I analyzed the Lakers offense in summer league, thanks for watching.
Good stuff. I think you may have been a bit optimistic about the team's spacing and the read and react component, but there's some good detail in there.
One thing it showed is how we may be adding a lot more variety in Horns this year, as opposed to the one action we did over and over again last season.
Last edited by fiendishoc on Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hey Lakers fans I analyzed the Lakers offense in summer league, thanks for watching.
Good stuff. I think you may have been a bit optimistic about the team's spacing and the read and react component, but there's some good detail in there.
One thing it showed is how we may be adding a lot more variety in Horns this year, as opposed to the one action we did over and over again last season.
Thanks for the very informative breakdowns
Your examples highlights the need to have everybody on the same page to run effective any offensive sets.
The video indirectly reflects Madsen's growing pains as a head coach, teacher and incorporating strategy.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29353 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:27 am Post subject:
Didn't realize how prevalent "jungle" sets were in the NBA.
I think Scott should merge jungle into his offense. It would get Randle the ball free throw line extended with options.
_________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
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