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A Mad Chinaman
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 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | And... then the Lakers took a step back the very next game. This was the play they had coming out of the timeout:
http://i.imgur.com/83hrdaN.png
So apparently, Randle is supposed to set a cross screen for Kobe for the isolation / post up on Ariza. Russell is supposed to throw the entry pass into Kobe and then cut around him in the post. And for some reason Hibbert is supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with Clarkson at the weak side three, neutralizing both players, and freeing up Hibbert's defender, Howard, to camp in the lane together with Capela.
http://i.imgur.com/BUO3vmj.png
Kobe gets called for an offensive foul trying to keep Ariza from fronting him, which he could freely do due to his teammates in the lane. But that play was doomed from the moment it was drawn up. |
I am SO CONFUSED, on the Laker's inconsistency overall play. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | And... then the Lakers took a step back the very next game. This was the play they had coming out of the timeout:
http://i.imgur.com/83hrdaN.png
So apparently, Randle is supposed to set a cross screen for Kobe for the isolation / post up on Ariza. Russell is supposed to throw the entry pass into Kobe and then cut around him in the post. And for some reason Hibbert is supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with Clarkson at the weak side three, neutralizing both players, and freeing up Hibbert's defender, Howard, to camp in the lane together with Capela.
http://i.imgur.com/BUO3vmj.png
Kobe gets called for an offensive foul trying to keep Ariza from fronting him, which he could freely do due to his teammates in the lane. But that play was doomed from the moment it was drawn up. |
I'm trying to understand why Clarkson isn't sitting at the corner if he's just going to be standing around anyways... so that they could have another man back on defense?  |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | And... then the Lakers took a step back the very next game. This was the play they had coming out of the timeout:
http://i.imgur.com/83hrdaN.png
So apparently, Randle is supposed to set a cross screen for Kobe for the isolation / post up on Ariza. Russell is supposed to throw the entry pass into Kobe and then cut around him in the post. And for some reason Hibbert is supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with Clarkson at the weak side three, neutralizing both players, and freeing up Hibbert's defender, Howard, to camp in the lane together with Capela.
http://i.imgur.com/BUO3vmj.png
Kobe gets called for an offensive foul trying to keep Ariza from fronting him, which he could freely do due to his teammates in the lane. But that play was doomed from the moment it was drawn up. |
I'm trying to understand why Clarkson isn't sitting at the corner if he's just going to be standing around anyways... so that they could have another man back on defense? |
Maybe Byron was running out of ink so he went with dots rather than lines, and then forgot to tell Clarkson to cut? Celebrating the 15 year anniversary of the end of the "illegal defense" call by trying to draw one on Dwight? Probably makes more sense than whatever actual rationale he had for putting them there. |
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bonkers
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| So from an X's and O's standpoint, what are we doing wrong with Hibbert? Has his verticality really gone extinct in 4-5 years already or is it a product of our defensive "principles"? |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bonkers wrote: | | So from an X's and O's standpoint, what are we doing wrong with Hibbert? Has his verticality really gone extinct in 4-5 years already or is it a product of our defensive "principles"? |
He's probably fallen off individually a bit, but mostly it's the non-existent help defense that's making him look so bad. |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | bonkers wrote: | | So from an X's and O's standpoint, what are we doing wrong with Hibbert? Has his verticality really gone extinct in 4-5 years already or is it a product of our defensive "principles"? |
He's probably fallen off individually a bit, but mostly it's the non-existent help defense that's making him look so bad. |
Hibbert is caught between a rock and a hard place - if he protecting the rim because the perimeter has penetrated the paint, his man has a direct path to get the rebound. If he doesn't come over to block the shot, it is FT exercise
Watching opposing teams simply out hustle our players is discouraging
Wondering when DLO will be telling players where they should be, like Huertas |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| You can already see both DLO and Clarkson directing traffic and telling guys their spots in the sets. What Huertas is doing a lot is telling guys to clear space for his PnRs, and then calling for a screen. |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | You can already see both DLO and Clarkson directing traffic and telling guys their spots in the sets. What Huertas is doing a lot is telling guys to clear space for his PnRs, and then calling for a screen. |
I have seen signs of DLO/Clarkson doing that. It appears that DLO is concentrating more on shooting (understandable considering comments in the media that he doesn't know much of the plays), via flaring out from a 1-2 screen with Clarkson. Just like Robert Horry almost got traded for not shooting enough, DLO seems to have embraced the mantra that shooting is better at this time.
From an eyeball (my eyeballs) observation, Huertas' presence on the court often leads into better ball movement - remembering that most of his PT is against the opposing team's bench players and his Nash-like defense is a liability.
It appears that DLO is inclined to be more like a DFish-type of PG while finding shots on places on the court where JC has been successful - as oppose to a Steve Nash-like playmaker
IMHO |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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The comment about not knowing the plays is misleading. Russell calls more variety of plays than anyone else on the team. I think what Byron was saying was that he's only implemented 20% of his playbook.
I agree that there seems to be better ball movement with Huertas on the floor. But that's because he is running down and calling a PnR most of the time rather than just running the offense off the playbook. It also has to do with the unit he tends to play with.
The DFish comment is silly because he is doing what he supposed to be doing in running the offense- it's simply not his decision. Byron said that he will override DLO when he calls a PnR for himself, so what do you expect the rookie do? |
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Honeybadger81
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | The comment about not knowing the plays is misleading. Russell calls more variety of plays than anyone else on the team. I think what Byron was saying was that he's only implemented 20% of his playbook.
I agree that there seems to be better ball movement with Huertas on the floor. But that's because he is running down and calling a PnR most of the time rather than just running the offense off the playbook. It also has to do with the unit he tends to play with.
The DFish comment is silly because he is doing what he supposed to be doing in running the offense- it's simply not his decision. Byron said that he will override DLO when he calls a PnR for himself, so what do you expect the rookie do? |
the thing is we will never see the other 80% of Byron's playbooks, just like last season... oh, last season he said he implemented 30%... |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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This is a breakdown of the offensive sets that we've run during the 3 game winning streak, as best as I can surmise. For clarification, "early offense" is classified as guys creating looks outside of organized action. And the "Set" is the initial set, regardless of whether or not it worked or broke down and ended in a PnR or isolation. Lastly, if a PnR came out of another set (like Horns) it would be credited to Horns rather than High PnR.
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bonkers
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Who gets the credit here? Byron for relaxing his sets? A directive from upstairs to relax his sets? The young guys just doing their own thing? |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | This is a breakdown of the offensive sets that we've run during the 3 game winning streak, as best as I can surmise. For clarification, "early offense" is classified as guys creating looks outside of organized action. And the "Set" is the initial set, regardless of whether or not it worked or broke down and ended in a PnR or isolation. Lastly, if a PnR came out of another set (like Horns) it would be credited to Horns rather than High PnR.
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Nice work. Surprised that there wasn't more floppy. Though sometimes we call it and it looks like a mess so they never get into it. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| bonkers wrote: | | Who gets the credit here? Byron for relaxing his sets? A directive from upstairs to relax his sets? The young guys just doing their own thing? |
I didn't see any big change in the composition of the halfcourt sets we ran, although we'll tend to do less triangle with Kobe out. We've been getting more early offense / fast break opportunities from opponents missing shots and us being better at securing the rebound.
Both Nance and Randle have been rebounding very well, and our team defensive rebounding percentage has been at 80% for the three games, around where the league leading Spurs are. On the season, our rebounding percentage is among the worst in the league. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | This is a breakdown of the offensive sets that we've run during the 3 game winning streak, as best as I can surmise. For clarification, "early offense" is classified as guys creating looks outside of organized action. And the "Set" is the initial set, regardless of whether or not it worked or broke down and ended in a PnR or isolation. Lastly, if a PnR came out of another set (like Horns) it would be credited to Horns rather than High PnR.
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Nice work. Surprised that there wasn't more floppy. Though sometimes we call it and it looks like a mess so they never get into it. |
That surprised me too. Even if something was a mess, I counted it. We just haven't run it as much as it felt like we have in the last 3 games. And we rarely run it if Nick Young isn't in the game. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | bonkers wrote: | | Who gets the credit here? Byron for relaxing his sets? A directive from upstairs to relax his sets? The young guys just doing their own thing? |
I didn't see any big change in the composition of the halfcourt sets we ran, although we'll tend to do less triangle with Kobe out. We've been getting more early offense / fast break opportunities from opponents missing shots and us being better at securing the rebound.
Both Nance and Randle have been rebounding very well, and our team defensive rebounding percentage has been at 80% for the three games, around where the league leading Spurs are. On the season, our rebounding percentage is among the worst in the league. |
This is exactly right. We're pushing tempo and trying to score early in the offense, without running much in the way of set plays. The only difference that I saw was in set play distribution was that we ran Horns 12 times against the Celtics, which has to be a season high. Then 7 times against Philly and just 4 times against the Suns. We only ran Floppy 3 times against Boston. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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The is another set that we run that has been decently successful. I'm not sure what it's classified as under this breakdown.
It's a strong side UCLA cut into a double staggered screen on the weak side. Basically the same action as the Hawk set that many teams run, except that the ball is passed to the wing rather than dribbled there.
I'll try to find a clip and post it here. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | The is another set that we run that has been decently successful. I'm not sure what it's classified as under this breakdown.
It's a strong side UCLA cut into a double staggered screen on the weak side. Basically the same action as the Hawk set that many teams run, except that the ball is passed to the wing rather than dribbled there.
I'll try to find a clip and post it here. |
Rather than go looking for it, I decided to wait until I noticed them running it again in a live game. They ran it at least twice vs the Thunder.
Here it is:
http://on.nba.com/1mKi7tJ |
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tox
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| So if I'm understanding correctly, the play is designed to get Lou getting the ball off the second screen going right to left so he can either get one of his drifting 3s or attack the basket? And Kobe just ignored the play for the jumper? |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | So if I'm understanding correctly, the play is designed to get Lou getting the ball off the second screen going right to left so he can either get one of his drifting 3s or attack the basket? And Kobe just ignored the play for the jumper? |
Both are options. They can run the two man game immediately, go to Lou off the double screen (assuming he doesn't already get the layup off the cut), or run the PnR after the weak side action.) |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | tox wrote: | | So if I'm understanding correctly, the play is designed to get Lou getting the ball off the second screen going right to left so he can either get one of his drifting 3s or attack the basket? And Kobe just ignored the play for the jumper? |
Both are options. They can run the two man game immediately, go to Lou off the double screen (assuming he doesn't already get the layup off the cut), or run the PnR after the weak side action.) |
Post game show that another option was a Kobe kickoff to the right corner (JC?)
AB had the option of who to pass the ball to |
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fiendishoc
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:10 am Post subject: |
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There was one sequence vs the Pelicans where the Lakers accidentally reversed the ball to the big in early offense, and it almost worked. This is notable because this is something that the other 29 teams in the league do on purpose, and for good reason.
Normally, the Lakers will inbound the ball with a big and then go into their outdated two guard front.
The play call this time seemed to be to fake a PnR on one side and go to the other side for another one, which is fine if you have bigs that can sometimes get up the court at a good enough pace to get out in front of the ball handler. However, in this situation, Hibbert, being Hibbert, takes some time coming out of the back court and then inadvertently gets in the way of the pass. He does get it to the weak side however, to run a PnR with Clarkson, enabling JC to get all the way to the basket and almost finish.
Note that there were still 14 seconds on the clock when the play finished despite it involving several passes, and could have been fewer, if the play was planned. This is something that rarely happens for the Lakers out of transition, because they are always walking the ball up waiting for the bigs to get into the high post first.
Some other good things that happened for them from getting the ball to the weak side. Hibbert as a big man trailer is wide open for the pass, so they can get into it cleanly without worrying about denial. Clarkson can start his move further out on his side and they get a screen going middle, and JC's man only has time to go under, which lets him attack him downhill. With the change of sides on the court, the role of the weakside defender switches from guarding the perimeter to helping inside on the roll, and it's harder to close out after coming in to tag the big. Nance's man is late on the help.
The Pelicans rebound and you see them come back, reverse the ball, run a PnR and get a wide open corner three.
They don't move the ball all the way to the other side, but the mere act of getting the ball to the middle of the floor with a pass creates more things for the weak side defender, Anthony Brown to process and worry about, and he's late on the tag and recover, giving them the open shot.
Right now we are a bit reliant on DLO skip passes after PnR to achieve these things. More shot clock time and less prepared defenses are some of the little things that we can look forward to to improve our efficiency when we finally move to a modern system in the future. |
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | This is a breakdown of the offensive sets that we've run during the 3 game winning streak, as best as I can surmise. For clarification, "early offense" is classified as guys creating looks outside of organized action. And the "Set" is the initial set, regardless of whether or not it worked or broke down and ended in a PnR or isolation. Lastly, if a PnR came out of another set (like Horns) it would be credited to Horns rather than High PnR.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h231/massinfusion/Screen%20Shot%202016-01-04%20at%2010.15.58%20PM_zpsyibsz3z7.png |
Nice work. Surprised that there wasn't more floppy. Though sometimes we call it and it looks like a mess so they never get into it. |
That surprised me too. Even if something was a mess, I counted it. We just haven't run it as much as it felt like we have in the last 3 games. And we rarely run it if Nick Young isn't in the game. |
Wow we arent running the princeton much. I guess just watching the games i could of figured it out but this table is so much easier than watching us lose all game long. |
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ValisJason
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting that link. So much good stuff there. It may just be me or it may be the format of the interview, but the way Mitchell talked about offensive adjustments and defensive schemes sounds so much better than Byron. And yet, Mitchell is not thought of as a very good modern coach.
Also, while Mitchell is very critical of certain players in that interview, you don't get the sense that you do with Byron that its all about "old-school" effort and manning up.
Really increases the sense that Byron is probably by far the worst coach in the league, and that the Lakers will be in the stone age until they fire him. |
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