Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Posts: 4330 Location: Meeting the man who met Andy Griffith.
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:11 am Post subject:
Battier was probably one of the easiest people for Kobe to score on. Kobe would have probably beaten Wilt's 100 if good ol' Shano didn't use his analytical wizardry. _________________ "The best there is. The best there was. The best there ever will be.", said Bret Hart regarding the Los Angeles Lakers.
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 5722 Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:05 am Post subject:
Out of all the supposed Kobe-stoppers, I feel that Tony Allen was the only one that gave Kobe fits regularly. The other just wished that they did, Mr. Forehead included.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:14 pm Post subject:
Nobody wrote:
Out of all the supposed Kobe-stoppers, I feel that Tony Allen was the only one that gave Kobe fits regularly. The other just wished that they did, Mr. Forehead included.
Who did better, Allen or Tayshaun? _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
I thought his ground-breaking strategy was to stick his hand in Kobe's face on every shot.
I always thought this was bush league, I know it was legal but you didnt see other nba players resort to it. Battier was not even top 10 defenders that made Kobe work. The best defender I saw on Kobe was Thibodeau in 2008. _________________ Alltime lineup: Magic | Kobe | MJ | Hakeem | KAJ
Analytics tells you things that the eye test can't tell you.
But Kobe used to score 40 consistently on Battier like its nothing even though he made him work for those points a bit. _________________ My Dream Starting 5 next Season
I am a trained scientist, so I do enjoy this video. But if I take my science hat off for a second, I am getting increasingly frustrated by all the hype surrounding stats and analytics in basketball. Not because of anything that is inherently wrong with the science of it, just the way it is being used, and especially the way it is being "sold" to the public.
As a fan, before you eat up all these numbers and graphs, etc. you have to first be aware of the massive amount of assumptions you are making in your conclusions. For example, in our latest season, we were tanking. now, as an organization and league, you can't actually say that, so it won't be in the media, it won't be discussed in heavy detail, it won't really be addressed at all, it will just be ignored basically. And all the talk will be as if there isn't tanking going on.
I mention this because now we get the numbers for the season. Well, what are supposed to make of it? If we're tanking, what do these numbers really mean? Not much. For an individual player, it can reveal certain tendencies and it can be used to analyze some things that way. But because the organization is not trying to win, it's hard to say how those conclusions will translate during a game or season where they really are trying to win. So analyzing the play of a player or team without factoring in these kinds of sensitive political characteristics will lead to conclusions that don't mean much. Byron Scott is not a good or bad coach based on last season. we don't know how good or bad he is right now. Same with most of the players.
These are difficult discussions, similar to the way economic philosophies are debated and discussed. It's emotional, it's hard, there's a lot of gray area, etc.
So analytics told Battier to make Kobe shoot going to the left. OK. I just don't know how valuable that information is. This is the struggle the Lakers org is currently going through as they are kind of being criticized for not using analytics as much as some feel they should. But they have a point, sort of.
I was just watching a little highlight of Magic where there's a scramble on the opponents' basket, he gets the ball, dribbles and weaves his way through various defenders full court until he gets to the basket, and int he middle of all those guys, he does a couple of nifty arm and head fakes and scores a tricky layup. It's like one of the goat-est things I've seen. Analytics can't analyze that. In fact, it might try and say some weird things about it...like maybe he should have passed instead of dribbling up, or something stupid like that. This numbers game is hard in basketball. baseball is much more suited to numbers because it's not so free flowing as basketball. It's so limited in the interaction, and so many stops and discrete plays occur. It's highly repetitive, and gaining a slight statistical advantage really makes a difference. Basketball is not like this, so sometimes I feel we are forcing the analysis.
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28432 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:29 pm Post subject:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
Nobody wrote:
Out of all the supposed Kobe-stoppers, I feel that Tony Allen was the only one that gave Kobe fits regularly. The other just wished that they did, Mr. Forehead included.
Out of all the supposed Kobe-stoppers, I feel that Tony Allen was the only one that gave Kobe fits regularly. The other just wished that they did, Mr. Forehead included.
Who did better, Allen or Tayshaun?
Neither. Team defense and refs. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Shane Battier is a pinheaded Clown with a huge forehead. He should shut his trap about stopping Kobe. _________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
I was just watching a little highlight of Magic where there's a scramble on the opponents' basket, he gets the ball, dribbles and weaves his way through various defenders full court until he gets to the basket, and int he middle of all those guys, he does a couple of nifty arm and head fakes and scores a tricky layup. It's like one of the goat-est things I've seen. Analytics can't analyze that. In fact, it might try and say some weird things about it...like maybe he should have passed instead of dribbling up, or something stupid like that. This numbers game is hard in basketball. baseball is much more suited to numbers because it's not so free flowing as basketball. It's so limited in the interaction, and so many stops and discrete plays occur. It's highly repetitive, and gaining a slight statistical advantage really makes a difference. Basketball is not like this, so sometimes I feel we are forcing the analysis.
As an untrained scientist myself, I believe I have devised an analytical solution that can help solve the problem of measuring Magic's greatness. Magic often created Arranged Standard Scoring Transfers from Individual to Scoring Teammate, or as I like to call them, "ASSIST"'s, that would not have otherwise been there. Now, as he accumulates these "assists" over the course of the game, we can add them up and even average them over a period to come up with a measure called "'assists' per game". Also, I bet that if we added all of these "assists" over the course of his career he might have even had the most of these "assists" all team at the time he retired. I'm now working on a paper on "assists" for the next MIT Sloan conference. Will keep everyone posted here.
to be fair: the eye ball test also suggests that the best way to defend Kobe was make him go left, and make him stop for a jumpshot... challenge it enough to make it tougher. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
I was just watching a little highlight of Magic where there's a scramble on the opponents' basket, he gets the ball, dribbles and weaves his way through various defenders full court until he gets to the basket, and int he middle of all those guys, he does a couple of nifty arm and head fakes and scores a tricky layup. It's like one of the goat-est things I've seen. Analytics can't analyze that. In fact, it might try and say some weird things about it...like maybe he should have passed instead of dribbling up, or something stupid like that. This numbers game is hard in basketball. baseball is much more suited to numbers because it's not so free flowing as basketball. It's so limited in the interaction, and so many stops and discrete plays occur. It's highly repetitive, and gaining a slight statistical advantage really makes a difference. Basketball is not like this, so sometimes I feel we are forcing the analysis.
As an untrained scientist myself, I believe I have devised an analytical solution that can help solve the problem of measuring Magic's greatness. Magic often created Arranged Standard Scoring Transfers from Individual to Scoring Teammate, or as I like to call them, "ASSIST"'s, that would not have otherwise been there. Now, as he accumulates these "assists" over the course of the game, we can add them up and even average them over a period to come up with a measure called "'assists' per game". Also, I bet that if we added all of these "assists" over the course of his career he might have even had the most of these "assists" all team at the time he retired. I'm now working on a paper on "assists" for the next MIT Sloan conference. Will keep everyone posted here.
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Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
