|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dvdrdiscs
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 6274
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dvdrdiscs
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 6274
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
One party's aggressiveness ends up with the other's ego being hurt. The second party's aggressiveness ends up ruining the other person's life. Big difference. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dvdrdiscs wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
One party's aggressiveness ends up with the other's ego being hurt. The second party's aggressiveness ends up ruining the other person's life. Big difference. |
Life doesn't always present equal power dynamics, but she introduced aggression into this situation. She was belligerent and rude from the jump, and escalated what was a routine traffic stop/warning into something else. I have higher standards for his behavior, because he is supposed to be trained to handle people like her, but let's not absolve her of responsibility. He didn't ask her to step out of the car until she was rude and uncooperative. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dvdrdiscs
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 6274
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ocho wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
One party's aggressiveness ends up with the other's ego being hurt. The second party's aggressiveness ends up ruining the other person's life. Big difference. |
Life doesn't always present equal power dynamics, but she introduced aggression into this situation. She was belligerent and rude from the jump, and escalated what was a routine traffic stop/warning into something else. I have higher standards for his behavior, because he is supposed to be trained to handle people like her, but let's not absolve her of responsibility. He didn't ask her to step out of the car until she was rude and uncooperative. |
Did you even watch the video?
He asked her to sign the ticket. She was about to. Then he asked her why she looked irritated. She told him why and it wasn't in any rude way. She felt like he was coming up close to her and she wanted to quickly get out of his way (which was why she didn't signal). She even said he was doing his job so whatever. Then he asked her to put out her cigarette. He had no right to, which was why she refused. Then he asked her to get out of the car. For what? Who escalated it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dvdrdiscs wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
One party's aggressiveness ends up with the other's ego being hurt. The second party's aggressiveness ends up ruining the other person's life. Big difference. |
Life doesn't always present equal power dynamics, but she introduced aggression into this situation. She was belligerent and rude from the jump, and escalated what was a routine traffic stop/warning into something else. I have higher standards for his behavior, because he is supposed to be trained to handle people like her, but let's not absolve her of responsibility. He didn't ask her to step out of the car until she was rude and uncooperative. |
Did you even watch the video?
He asked her to sign the ticket. She was about to. Then he asked her why she looked irritated. She told him why and it wasn't in any rude way. She felt like he was coming up close to her and she wanted to quickly get out of his way (which was why she didn't signal). She even said he was doing his job so whatever. Then he asked her to put out her cigarette. He had no right to, which was why she refused. Then he asked her to get out of the car. For what? Who escalated it? |
If you feel this is the way to behave when pulled over by an officer we are at an impasse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dladi Vidac
Star Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 4330
Location: Meeting the man who met Andy Griffith.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Verbal Kint said it best...
_________________
"The best there is. The best there was. The best there ever will be.", said Bret Hart regarding the Los Angeles Lakers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
 How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dvdrdiscs
Star Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 6274
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
Maybe.
I see your point, and of course it is almost always better to be polite and compliant, just as it is also almost always better not to talk trash to a big drunk guy in a bar. But that doesn't mean the big guy has the right to get physical in response, and it definitely doesn't mean a cop suddenly has the right to escalate in response either.
FWIW, in my experience in law enforcement, the rudest people to cops tend to be white, middle aged or older, and the level of rudeness tends to increase with their income/social standing. And cops routinely deal with that in a completely different manner than they do with people who check the box as young, unconnected, less well off, and less white. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 24 wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
Maybe.
I see your point, and of course it is almost always better to be polite and compliant, just as it is also almost always better not to talk trash to a big drunk guy in a bar. But that doesn't mean the big guy has the right to get physical in response, and it definitely doesn't mean a cop suddenly has the right to escalate in response either.
FWIW, in my experience in law enforcement, the rudest people to cops tend to be white, middle aged or older, and the level of rudeness tends to increase with their income/social standing. And cops routinely deal with that in a completely different manner than they do with people who check the box as young, unconnected, less well off, and less white. |
I think they both were too aggressive and could have handled themselves better. But I find it hard to watch the video and not see a woman doing everything she can to look for trouble. Maybe she doesn't legally have to put her cigarette out. She could also legally blast music as he approaches and flip him the bird. Not great ideas though. And a cop does have the right to ask you to step out of the car, which she refused. If the cop's story is true, and off-camera she was physical, now she has committed a fairly serious crime and also resisted arrest. If this is the way she conducted herself with law enforcement she was bound to find the trouble she sought. Doesn't excuse the taser comment, or if the officer was overly aggressive with her (which is hard to tell by both accounts since the scuffle appears off-camera). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67716
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with ocho, both were at fault. However with the climate being the way it is between law enforcement and Black cititzens now days it would behoove me to swallow some pride. Pride goes before the fall.
Is it right, NO? Would filing a complaint get positive results, again NO?
He who in battle turns away.............paraphrased.......
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans. |
I neither consider myself property of the state nor do I feel the need to be aggressively rude and defiant with law enforcement for no reason at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans. |
I neither consider myself property of the state nor do I feel the need to be aggressively rude and defiant with law enforcement for no reason at all. |
Up to the point she was asked to put out her cigarette -
1) How was she being aggressively rude or defiant?
2)When he demanded that she get out of her vehicle less than one second after she refuse to put out her cigarette, what was the legal basis for the request?
3)When he first told her she was under arrest, what was the legal basis for the arrest?
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans. |
I neither consider myself property of the state nor do I feel the need to be aggressively rude and defiant with law enforcement for no reason at all. |
Up to the point she was asked to put out her cigarette -
1) How was she being aggressively rude or defiant?
2)When he demanded that she get out of her vehicle less than one second after she refuse to put out her cigarette, what was the legal basis for the request?
3)When he first told her she was under arrest, what was the legal basis for the arrest? |
She was rude and mouthed off from the moment he approached her window. She was rude by smoking a cigarette while talking to him and refusing to put it out when asked. To my knowledge an officer does not need to provide a reason and has legal authority to ask you to step out of the car.
I am confident you yourself do not act this way when pulled over by an officer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans. |
I neither consider myself property of the state nor do I feel the need to be aggressively rude and defiant with law enforcement for no reason at all. |
Up to the point she was asked to put out her cigarette -
1) How was she being aggressively rude or defiant?
2)When he demanded that she get out of her vehicle less than one second after she refuse to put out her cigarette, what was the legal basis for the request?
3)When he first told her she was under arrest, what was the legal basis for the arrest? |
She was rude and mouthed off from the moment he approached her window. She was rude by smoking a cigarette while talking to him and refusing to put it out when asked. To my knowledge an officer does not need to provide a reason and has legal authority to ask you to step out of the car.
I am confident you yourself do not act this way when pulled over by an officer. |
Apparently Not in Texas. That's why the officer was pulled off the street and assigned to desk duty for, in the words of the Texas Dept of Public Safety :
| Quote: | | "identified violations of the department's procedures regarding traffic stops and the department's courtesy policy." |
And when I'm pulled over, the very first thing I do is say "Ah man, what did I do now?" beating him to the punch of trying to get me to admit to something by asking "Do you know why I pulled you over". I put the onus on him to make a declarative statement. If he responds, "You don't know why I pulled you over?" while laughing and being uber friendly, I say "Nah man, but I've got a sneaky suspicion you're about to tell me. Hopefully I didn't do something too stupid?" That usually get's us to a "License & Registration please" & if he hasn't already run my plates and identified me (which most have already done) - Then I get to wait whilst he takes my license and registration back to his cruiser. But haven't had that happen since the mid 90's. I haven't ended up getting a ticket out of it since '92.
In the last decade, the closest things have come is a cop getting behind me, obviously running my plates, then either u-turning, or speeding past me. They don't seem very interested in pulling me over anymore. Some of that has to do with how Seattle's Police are set up. Traffic and Patrol are 2 separate divisions, and Patrol Officers (being by far the most numerous) aren't really interested in writing traffic tickets in this town. Not many random pull overs by Patrol officers like elsewhere. About the only time you see folks being cited for traffic violations here, is during speed traps, which are pretty much always at the same few spots. Or by State Patrol on the highway.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OregonLakerGuy
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 13207
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The officer definitely overreacted and a better man would have deescalated the situation. That said, when an officer gives an order, you defy that order at great risk. She may have been within her rights, but someone with a better sense of self preservation would likely have driven away with a ticket and lived to complain about a mean cop.
I learned from some painful encounters in my youth that when pulled over, it is in my interest to answer yes sir and no sir, do exactly as I am told, and not to move without being asked. It makes the whole encounter more pleasant and less risky. Maybe it's a generation thing, but they have the gun and the power of the state behind them. I find the best policy is to get out of the encounter with as little friction as possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 24 wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
Maybe.
I see your point, and of course it is almost always better to be polite and compliant, just as it is also almost always better not to talk trash to a big drunk guy in a bar. But that doesn't mean the big guy has the right to get physical in response, and it definitely doesn't mean a cop suddenly has the right to escalate in response either.
FWIW, in my experience in law enforcement, the rudest people to cops tend to be white, middle aged or older, and the level of rudeness tends to increase with their income/social standing. And cops routinely deal with that in a completely different manner than they do with people who check the box as young, unconnected, less well off, and less white. |
Actually, big drunk guys in bars are usually easy to take out. Drunk and fighting don't go well together.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 24 wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Both of them were needlessly aggressive. If they both dial it back a notch this encounter ends in 2 minutes with a warning. |
Maybe.
I see your point, and of course it is almost always better to be polite and compliant, just as it is also almost always better not to talk trash to a big drunk guy in a bar. But that doesn't mean the big guy has the right to get physical in response, and it definitely doesn't mean a cop suddenly has the right to escalate in response either.
FWIW, in my experience in law enforcement, the rudest people to cops tend to be white, middle aged or older, and the level of rudeness tends to increase with their income/social standing. And cops routinely deal with that in a completely different manner than they do with people who check the box as young, unconnected, less well off, and less white. |
QFT.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
Yep.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | I agree with ocho, both were at fault. However with the climate being the way it is between law enforcement and Black cititzens now days it would behoove me to swallow some pride. Pride goes before the fall.
Is it right, NO? Would filing a complaint get positive results, again NO?
He who in battle turns away.............paraphrased....... |
This reminds me of this from the movie Grand Canyon Ca. 1991
Simon: I've gotta ask you for a favor. Let me go my way here. This truck's my responsibility, and now that the car's hooked up to it, it's my responsibility too.
Rocstar: Do you think I'm stupid? Just answer that question first.
Simon: Look, I don't know nothing about you; you don't know nothing about me. I don't know if you're stupid, or some kind of genius. All I know is that I need to get out of here, and you got the gun. So I'm asking you, for the second time, let me go my way here.
Rocstar: I'm gonna grant you that favor, and I'm gonna expect you to remember it if we ever meet again. But tell me this, are you asking me as a sign of respect, or are you asking because I've got the gun?
Simon: [b]Man, the world ain't supposed to work like this. I mean, maybe you don't know that yet. I'm supposed to be able to do my job without having to ask you if I can. That dude is supposed to be able to wait with his car without you ripping him off. Everything is supposed to be different than it is.
Rocstar: So what's your answer?
Simon: You ain't got the gun, we ain't having this conversation.
Rocstar: That's what I thought: no gun, no respect. That's why I always got the gun.
[/b]
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Last edited by KobeBryantCliffordBrown on Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Christopher C
Star Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 6292
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Juan M. Thompson @JuanMThompson Jul 21
#SandraBland: "I can't wait til we go to court." Doesn't seem like she wanted to commit suicide.
Juan M. Thompson @JuanMThompson 13m13 minutes ago
Some ppl now: #SandraBland shld've just bowed down to 5-o. Ppl then: slaves "just do what the master says. It's your fault if you die."
https://twitter.com/JuanMThompson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KobeBryantCliffordBrown
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 6429
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans. |
I neither consider myself property of the state nor do I feel the need to be aggressively rude and defiant with law enforcement for no reason at all. |
Up to the point she was asked to put out her cigarette -
1) How was she being aggressively rude or defiant?
2)When he demanded that she get out of her vehicle less than one second after she refuse to put out her cigarette, what was the legal basis for the request?
3)When he first told her she was under arrest, what was the legal basis for the arrest? |
She was rude and mouthed off from the moment he approached her window. She was rude by smoking a cigarette while talking to him and refusing to put it out when asked. To my knowledge an officer does not need to provide a reason and has legal authority to ask you to step out of the car.
I am confident you yourself do not act this way when pulled over by an officer. |
Sorry Ocho, but I think you're wrong on this.
_________________
“It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ocho
Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53836
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | How can anyone take issue with how she reacted up to the point he asked her to put out her cigarette. She wasn't being flippant. She answered HIS question honestly, without raising her voice or using derogatory remarks. And when she refuses to disengage legal behavior in her private property, she does so in what seems to be a polite manner. She said, without raising her voice "I'm in my car, I don't have to put out my cigarette" then in less that one second he then Orders her out of the car by stating "Oh you can get out of the car now" making it clear that refusal to put out the cigarette was the reason he was ORDERING her out of the vehicle. She correctly responds that "she does not have to step out of her car" since there has no been no lawful basis given for her doing so. He then starts raising and repeating his demand She continues to refuse without raising her voice, and he keeps demanding and escalating. He then reached in her private property and attempts to forcibly remove her whilst raising his voice. She states clearly she doesn't have to compy with his unlawful order and that she is not under arrest, at which point he tells her she is under arrest:
What's the legal reason she's under arrest at this juncture? She hasn't failed to obey a lawful order since no lawful order has been given. The officer can order her out of the car if he has fear for his safety, or reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or is in the process of being committed. He has zero authority to order a person to exit their private property for failing to obey and unlawful request and because his mangina was hurt when the request was politely denied. The only way one could fault the victim is if they patently believe she is property of the state,as opposed to a free human with rights accorded to a free human. |
1. Escalates situation.
2. Illegally arrests citizen.
3. Citizen refuses to be illegally arrested.
4. Citizen is then arrested for resisting arrest.
This circular logic is used so often and it's so damn crazy. And people here are OKAY with it. "Just shut up and do what he/she says." |
The only way a person can believe this is if THEY feel they are property of the state. Sadly, many Americans DO feel they are property of the state, and are sadly okay with admitting their own lack of freedom. We see this clearly in their reactions to people who do not view themselves as property of the state, but as free humans. |
I neither consider myself property of the state nor do I feel the need to be aggressively rude and defiant with law enforcement for no reason at all. |
Up to the point she was asked to put out her cigarette -
1) How was she being aggressively rude or defiant?
2)When he demanded that she get out of her vehicle less than one second after she refuse to put out her cigarette, what was the legal basis for the request?
3)When he first told her she was under arrest, what was the legal basis for the arrest? |
She was rude and mouthed off from the moment he approached her window. She was rude by smoking a cigarette while talking to him and refusing to put it out when asked. To my knowledge an officer does not need to provide a reason and has legal authority to ask you to step out of the car.
I am confident you yourself do not act this way when pulled over by an officer. |
Sorry Ocho, but I think you're wrong on this. |
If you're regarding the bolded I don't believe I am, but certainly could be. I am not a lawyer nor a member of law enforcement. From what I have read about this incident, an officer absolutely has the right to order you from your car in a stop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
