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wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject:

So back to the thread .... Do you think Kobe plans to work until he's in his late 30's at elite shape ala Malone or do you think he'll quit early like Jordan? I think Kobe's going to stay in good shape until 35 at the very least. He's smart and a self made elite athlete. He knows what it takes and what he needs to do in the summer. Thoughts?

dirka dirka
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

So back to the thread ....

Do you think Kobe plans to work until he's in his late 30's at elite shape ala Malone or do you think he'll quit early like Jordan?

I think Kobe's going to stay in good shape until 35 at the very least. He's smart and a self made elite athlete. He knows what it takes and what he needs to do in the summer.

Thoughts?

well lets put it this way, no way in hell will Kobe let up on his training and the NBA till he either matches Jordans rings or exceeds them.
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wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject:

dirka dirka wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

well lets put it this way, no way in hell will Kobe let up on his training and the NBA till he either matches Jordans rings or exceeds them.

I agree.

I think Kobe's extremely motivated to play well into his 30's.

He's like Karl Malone. Workaholic. He won't rest until he knows he's done everything imaginable in preparing.

To tell you the truth, a part of me thinks Kobe will play 10 more years and break KAJ's record.

Yes, I just said that.

K8KillerInstinct
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:

dirka dirka wrote:

Purps wrote:

K8KillerInstinct wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Quote:

When I saw the movie Rudy I remember thinking, "What if I worked that hard?" God has blessed me both physically and intellectually to play this game, so what would happen if I push as hard as the character in this film? I would love for people to think of me as a talented overachiever. Even though those fans may chant "Kobe sucks" when they leave that arena I want them to walk out with a different feeling than they came in with. When they leave they'll leave with the understanding that they have just witnessed a player give himself completely to his passion; they have just watched an athlete pour every ounce of his heart and soul out on that floor.

Amazing.

Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!

Yeah I would say Kobe is top 3 smartest American African NBA player. He has a great vocabulary and wasn't a 2.0 GPA person like most NBA players.

Here we go again... :roll:

dont pay attention to this guy, he's obviously trying to get a rise, look at his join date...

Oook?? And you must real be Mr. Cool for pointing that out. "...he's obviously trying to get a rise, look at his join date..." Yeah ooook

I am not trying to be racist. Here is the fact:
Most NBA players are African Americans (just like saying most tennis players are whites, its plain statistics). Nothing is wrong with that (its a fact). I was making a simple comparison pointing out that Kobe is probably the smartest amongst them. It was a frekin complement.
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LakerJam
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:

I just take it from your last line, LakerJam....

I have no problem with Kobe being different from his peers. I consider myself different from my peers. I have a problem with the racist statement about a whole group of black NBA players that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the article. Kobe Bryant can read and write well....well there you have it!! That's why his BLACK peers hate him....they're not quite so literate and they're jealous.

And I also find it ironic that you talk about determination by skin color...why are we having this discussion again??? Rightttttt...because black people hate other black people who know how to speak.

Why you decided to jump into the mudhole with Wolf on this one, I don't know. What she said was bigoted and irrelevant to the article and I called her out for it.
[/b]

Hoops, I don’t have that opinion AT ALL. I don’t equate poor language skills as a “black” thing, anymore than I believe all Asians are automatically smarter, or that all Hispanic males work as bus boys and lust after every woman they see. I can understand the sensitivity to that type of thing, but it isn’t my view in the slightest. I actually grew up in a city that was/is extremely multi-racial, with much of the black community quite affluent and attending many Ivy league schools, while other races - including many Anglos - weren’t as well off or well spoken.

I was merely saying that we didn’t need to turn this into a bigger thing than it already was, because Wolf had already apologized to anyone he may have offended.

Racial issues are clearly a “hot” button in every sense and this is a perfect example of that. Still, it’s a shame we can’t discuss elements of this stuff without it turning into an ugly thing. I actually believe we’d be better off as a society if it wasn’t so taboo a topic, because we’d develop a greater understanding and appreciation for the different races that comprise this country. Unfortunately, any negative comment automatically transforms into “He or she is a bigot”, which isn’t necessarily true.

Honestly, do you seriously believe the African American athletes in the NBA as a general rule, are very well spoken? If not, then is it racist for someone to point that out unless that person is black? I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle - some are being racists, some are being honest. Either way, it’s a huge no-no to even discuss it. On that note, I guess we should drop it, but I do think it’s an interesting discussion.

magic_bryant
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

My biggest fear is that Kobe will wear himself out. He has played in more games than any 27 yr old in the history of the league. I had some stats in a thread earlier this year, that showed Kobe was ahead of everyone in that category. He's like a modern-day case study in the human body. Can an 18 yr old KID, come into the league and use the league just as they would have the college level? Can an 18 yr old athlete, come straight to the league, and still last just as long as players in the 80s, who went 4 years of college basketball? How much wear and tear does the NBA really put on the body?

These things really worry me. I'm not sure if Kobe has 4 years left in him or 8. You can tell that the though has crossed his mind as well. I hope that the case study turns out to be pointless and that Kobe can last until 35, just like everyone else. But the opposite could be just as likely, that after his prime is over, (now and the next 2-3 years) that their is a mjor dropoff, as their appears to be in KG's game now.

Luckily though, Kobe is slowly working his game into the finesse game, that Michael went to in his latter years. Instead of driving with reckless abandon, Kobe has been more at ease with simply catching and shooting. Playing the triangle to it's strength, "Find the open space, catch, pull, bang." In the Three-peat years, Kobe would always catch, think a few seconds too long, and then drive, throwing off the rhythm of the offense so much. It's why I didn't want Artest at the expense of Lamar, Artest is an outright ball-hogging ball-stopper. The flow of the offense goes to hell and back when it hits Artest's hands.

What does everyone else think? Will Kobe last? I like to think that he will, but the doubts exist in my mind.
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effalllakerhaters
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:

let's stick to basketball. i don't think wolf meant anything by it and i understand where hoopschick is coming from but can you all take it to PMs if you wanna argue about race? great article by kobe by the way.

K8KillerInstinct
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Yeah, I worry about that too (but I hope I am wrong). Especially now that Kobe is only good player, all the pressure and stress is on him causing him to wear down even faster (if the wear down idea is true). Thats why we definately need a #2 scorer fast.
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wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Kobe>Jordan. My opinion

This season, I agree with you

hoopschick29
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:

hoopschick29 wrote:

Hoops, I don’t have that opinion AT ALL. I don’t equate poor language skills as a “black” thing, anymore than I believe all Asians are automatically smarter, or that all Hispanic males work as bus boys and lust after every woman they see. I can understand the sensitivity to that type of thing, but it isn’t my view in the slightest. I actually grew up in a city that was/is extremely multi-racial, with much of the black community quite affluent and attending many Ivy league schools, while other races - including many Anglos - weren’t as well off or well spoken.

I was merely saying that we didn’t need to turn this into a bigger thing than it already was, because Wolf had already apologized to anyone he may have offended.

Racial issues are clearly a “hot” button in every sense and this is a perfect example of that. Still, it’s a shame we can’t discuss elements of this stuff without it turning into an ugly thing. I actually believe we’d be better off as a society if it wasn’t so taboo a topic, because we’d develop a greater understanding and appreciation for the different races that comprise this country. Unfortunately, any negative comment automatically transforms into “He or she is a bigot”, which isn’t necessarily true.
Honestly, do you seriously believe the African American athletes in the NBA as a general rule, are very well spoken? If not, then is it racist for someone to point that out unless that person is black? I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle - some are being racists, some are being honest. Either way, it’s a huge no-no to even discuss it. On that note, I guess we should drop it, but I do think it’s an interesting discussion.

No where in any of my statements did I ever say Wolf was racist. I'm pointing this out for a very important reason. You can make racist or bigoted comments without necessarily being a racist person. They're 2 different animals. My response was to her comment which was racist.

As to the general rule of black athletes not being well-spoken, let me turn it around. Don't you think it's strange that people pay so much attention to when a black person is well-spoken? It's like when Chris Rock talked about Colin Powell. People gushed over Colin Powell over how well he speaks....and this is a 4 frickin star general in the United States Army. It's like they expected to hear Buckwheat when he opened his mouth.

Do I think Kobe speaks well?? Absolutely. Do I think it's common among black athletes? Probably not. But it's not a big deal to me. A black person, whether they're an athlete or a 4 star general in the Army, who knows how to put a sentence together is not something I think is worth noting. And then to say that that's why his black peers hate him....that's ridiculous.

K8KillerInstinct
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

hoopschick29 wrote:

Hoops, I don’t have that opinion AT ALL. I don’t equate poor language skills as a “black” thing, anymore than I believe all Asians are automatically smarter, or that all Hispanic males work as bus boys and lust after every woman they see. I can understand the sensitivity to that type of thing, but it isn’t my view in the slightest. I actually grew up in a city that was/is extremely multi-racial, with much of the black community quite affluent and attending many Ivy league schools, while other races - including many Anglos - weren’t as well off or well spoken.

I was merely saying that we didn’t need to turn this into a bigger thing than it already was, because Wolf had already apologized to anyone he may have offended.

Racial issues are clearly a “hot” button in every sense and this is a perfect example of that. Still, it’s a shame we can’t discuss elements of this stuff without it turning into an ugly thing. I actually believe we’d be better off as a society if it wasn’t so taboo a topic, because we’d develop a greater understanding and appreciation for the different races that comprise this country. Unfortunately, any negative comment automatically transforms into “He or she is a bigot”, which isn’t necessarily true.
Honestly, do you seriously believe the African American athletes in the NBA as a general rule, are very well spoken? If not, then is it racist for someone to point that out unless that person is black? I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle - some are being racists, some are being honest. Either way, it’s a huge no-no to even discuss it. On that note, I guess we should drop it, but I do think it’s an interesting discussion.

"And then to say that that's why his black peers hate him....that's ridiculous."
I have to disagree with you there. I watched some documentation/spots film, some NBA players ( I think Iverson) was mocking Kobe because he cant really be "black" or doesnt really have that type of slang language. Again people, dont start bashing on me, I am saying what I saw.
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Drifts
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

Socks wrote:

Thanks for posting.

Quote:

The game is a rhythm, a dance. Phil and Tex have taught me to feel the game. To think the game without thinking, to see without seeing. They taught me how to prepare. How to conceptualize the spirit of my opponents and attack them where they are weak.

Kobe's starting to sound like PJ

I expect Kobe to write a book when all is said and done...
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Surfitall
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject:

There is a great book by a guy named Dnish Dsouza (I think that's how you spell it) called, The End of Racism. It's fascinating because he is an outsider (He is eastern indian by birth). He makes some outlandish points, but it's a very, very interesting read. Clearly, racism is one of the most challenging issues facing America. Sorry for contributing to the side thread. As for the main thread...I was a little worried when I read that Kobe was going to write his own article. Very impressed with what I've read so far though. I wasn't expecting it to be so introspective.

magic_bryant
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

There is a great book by a guy named Dnish Dsouza (I think that's how you spell it) called, The End of Racism. It's fascinating because he is an outsider (He is eastern indian by birth). He makes some outlandish points, but it's a very, very interesting read.

Clearly, racism is one of the most challenging issues facing America.

Sorry for contributing to the side thread.

As for the main thread...I was a little worried when I read that Kobe was going to write his own article. Very impressed with what I've read so far though. I wasn't expecting it to be so introspective.

You weren't? Kobe is a very introspective person, just judging on what I hear and read about his personality. If I had to say, his personality type would be that of a INTP.

Here's a description of the personality type, according to Myers-Briggs:

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory2.html

You can take the personality type test at either of these sites:

The Long version

Shorter version

Funny story, Danny Ainge likes to base his picks on this personality type test. Michael Jordan was said to have taken it and also been an INTP.

As was some guy known as "magic_bryant".

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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass."

Drifts
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:

I think wolf meant "the hip-hop" culture, moreso than the actual term "black". I didn't think it was racial when Phil mentioned black instead of "hip-hop", either. It's just a choice of words. That's all.

of course there's nothing wrong with "hip hop" and definitely nothing wrong with "black"...but some people measure it up to some different standard and make it look inferior. Society has some wierd thinking that anything different is inferior...Both "hip hop" and "black" cultures are beautiful in its own right.
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brandnew
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject:

Good God, this article makes me wish so much that this team was a contender again, that Bynum was 22 years old and among the top C's in the league... that Lamar was a consistent and aggressive force night in and night out, and Kwame had a resemblance of an offensive game... or we could make some kind of acquisition. Man, 2007 could not come any slower. _________________ Treasure Trooper Treasure Trooper Count: Money Made: $496

Walter Sobchak
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

Klone_dd wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

In reality, Kobe wasn’t necessarily raised in a “black” culture, as he was raised in Italy, which is a latin based culture. That explains his taste in Latinas and does, of course, result in a lot of differences between Kobe and his peers.

Wha??? Italy is a European-based culture. The language of Latin may have originated there, but to go from Latin the language to "Latina" which refers to someone with a Hispanic origin is really a laughable stretch.

I've heard other people make this connection as well and it is just absurd. I've heard it said that people from Spain or Portugual are considered "Latino" because the language spoken in their countries derives from Latin, and it's just ridiculous. Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese and the French are all western Europeans who are from countries that speak a language derived from Latin. I'm sure the French would be surprised that apparently because of this some would consider them to be "Latinos"

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LakerJam
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

hoopschick29 wrote:

Hoops, I don’t have that opinion AT ALL. I don’t equate poor language skills as a “black” thing, anymore than I believe all Asians are automatically smarter, or that all Hispanic males work as bus boys and lust after every woman they see. I can understand the sensitivity to that type of thing, but it isn’t my view in the slightest. I actually grew up in a city that was/is extremely multi-racial, with much of the black community quite affluent and attending many Ivy league schools, while other races - including many Anglos - weren’t as well off or well spoken.

I was merely saying that we didn’t need to turn this into a bigger thing than it already was, because Wolf had already apologized to anyone he may have offended.

Racial issues are clearly a “hot” button in every sense and this is a perfect example of that. Still, it’s a shame we can’t discuss elements of this stuff without it turning into an ugly thing. I actually believe we’d be better off as a society if it wasn’t so taboo a topic, because we’d develop a greater understanding and appreciation for the different races that comprise this country. Unfortunately, any negative comment automatically transforms into “He or she is a bigot”, which isn’t necessarily true.
Honestly, do you seriously believe the African American athletes in the NBA as a general rule, are very well spoken? If not, then is it racist for someone to point that out unless that person is black? I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle - some are being racists, some are being honest. Either way, it’s a huge no-no to even discuss it. On that note, I guess we should drop it, but I do think it’s an interesting discussion.

I actually wasn't directing my comment about how no one can't make a negative comment about a minority without it becoming a racist issue, specifically at this one incident. I was speaking in generalities.

As for turning it around, yes, I do think it's an unfair thing for people to focus on how a person speaks, versus the message they're relaying. People aren't their language skills, they're the intent behind them and your quality isn't determined by how studious you are. Still, if we're honest, African Americans have just as much to do with that stigma as anyone, because when an African American is well spoken, he's often insulted and ridiculed by his own race. He's called an Uncle Tom or attacked as really being white, but with brown skin. Just look at the Dave Chappelle show or Beverly Hills Cop with Eddie Murphy, and you see well spoken black guys being made fun of. African Americans can be some of the most racist people in the country, as can anyone else. We minorities sometimes act as though we own the rights to suffering racism against us, when we're just as guilty of delivering it.

As for Wolf's comments that Kobe putting a sentence together is why his peers hate him, I honestly think he meant the culture barrior - which is what I was trying to relay to you. Kobe IS different from his peers, not just because he is so well-spoken, but because he was raised differently. Money wasn't an issue. He had a whole lot of culture around him by virtue of geography and the quality of his schools, and he benefited from having his dad around - something that a lot of inner city kids just don't have.

I guess we should leave it at that, though, because these people are going to get angry that we're hijacking the thread with race discussions - even though they are interesting.

LakerJam
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject:

Walter Sobchak wrote:

Klone_dd wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

Man, are you SO wrong. Italians are absolutely very "latin" in many, many, many, many, many ways. Spain is a Euro country, as well. Are they not "Latin" at all either?

Tony Montana
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:

LakerJam wrote:

hoopschick29 wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

dirka dirka wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Ozendorph wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!

lol, yikes.

Harsh, but it's true.

I am privy to a ton of interviews and post game stuff when team's visit the Toronto Raptors.

Most of the guys couldn't write a sentance let alone an article.

LMAO, maybe you should learn to spell "sentence" before busting an entire race on their writing skills. Perhaps you should have just left it as most NBA players and left race out of it? Just a thought.

It's not race.

Do you forget that Kobe is black too?

All my favorite NBA players are black. My roommate is black and muslim.

So that's not it at all. It's about Kobe's earlier years where i recall a bunch of these guys hating on him because he wasn't as "street" like as the rest of them.

Instead of it being a good thing that Kobe wasn't like them, it was made out to be a bad thing. Infact, It still is by many people.

I love black people...some of my closest friends are black.

Whatever Wolf, you may know some black folks, but you definitely don't understand anything for you to say something that ignorant and racist. It's very presumptuous for you to suggest that other black athletes hate Kobe because he can speak and write well.

And which black athletes have stated they didn't like Kobe because he's not 'street' enough??

Now, now, let’s not make this bigger than it is. He already apologized if he offended anyone, as he was (perhaps not so eloquently) pointing out that many athletes and young, inner city fans really couldn’t relate much to Kobe, because he was “born with a silver spoon” in his mouth. He didn’t and doesn’t really have the same “street” sense about him as most of the other minority athletes in the league, who often come from poorer and rougher neighborhoods. In reality, Kobe wasn’t necessarily raised in a “black” culture, as he was raised in Italy, which is a latin based culture. That explains his taste in Latinas and does, of course, result in a lot of differences between Kobe and his peers. Many people have derided him for that difference, including his peers. That said, Kobe has since earned the respect from his peers, so it’s really a non-issue.

It isn’t taboo to point these things out, although Wolf would probably admit that he could have chosen better wording.

What is your idea of a 'black culture' and what it means to be raised in it? Tell me, please, because I can guarantee that my idea is much broader than yours. See, this is what I'm talking about. I love it when people speak on things they clearly know nothing about. Kobe spent 7 years of his life in Italy. So what?? His mom is still black, right?? How about his dad?? His sisters?? Living in Italy didn't make his acculturation any less 'black' (remember, you're gonna explain to me what that is, being you're an expert and all). It only means he was exposed to more things.

And for the blurb Kobe preferring Latinas, where's your evidence of that?? My mother remarried when I was 10 years old to a white man. She had never dated white men before. They are plenty of people who have never left the country that date outside their race. Kobe dated black girls before he hooked up with Vanessa. And apparently he doesn't have a problem with white girls, either.

Actually, the 7 years is very significant, as it was from ages 5-12 or 6-13, which is crucial in who you become, so you are wrong to write that off.

In addition, Kobe himself has spoken about how hard it was at first to go to high school in Philly, in that he had trouble with being regarded as "being black enough' because he spoke differently, and at the time, did not understand or use "black" slang. I'll trust his own words and opinion more than yours. You are being overly sensitive.

Ziggy
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject:

Nice article, thanks for the link. And I think everyone in this thread just needs a hug.

slavavov
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Location: Santa Monica

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

This is exactly my fear too in the long term. Despite the best training methods, even the most conditioned people will break down eventually. I don't think mother nature intended for us to play NBA basketball. In addition to coming into the NBA at 18, Kobe has gone to at least the 2nd round of the playoffs every year until last year, which adds even more mileage. I fear that Kobe's prime will last only 3-4 more years, and then depending on how good his supporting cast is by then and how much of a burden he's had to carry, he may start declining fast. He play this season is more like MJ after his first comeback, than MJ in the early 90s when he still had considerable hops.

Also, how much longer can Kobe tolerate playing for a mediocre or non-contending team? How disconcerting must it be for him to go from contending every year for his first 8 seasons, to just trying to make the playoffs the last 1.5 years with no chance of conteding anytime soon? My real fear is that if we still aren't contending in a couple years, Kobe may get frustrated and demand a trade or even threaten to retire. I know I would if I were in his shoes. Barkley was in a similar situation in Philly, and he was very frustrated, then he got traded to the Suns. I really hope Phil pressures Mitch and Buss to make some significant moves, if not before the deadline, then this offseason while Kobe is still (relatively) young and still has his unreal passion to play and win and be the best ever.
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wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

African Americans have just as much to do with that stigma as anyone, because when an African American is well spoken, he's often insulted and ridiculed by his own race. He's called an Uncle Tom or attacked as really being white

As for Wolf's comments that Kobe putting a sentence together is why his peers hate him, I honestly think he meant the culture barrior - which is what I was trying to relay to you. Kobe IS different from his peers, not just because he is so well-spoken, but because he was raised differently. Money wasn't an issue. He had a whole lot of culture around him by virtue of geography and the quality of his schools, and he benefited from having his dad around - something that a lot of inner city kids just don't have.

Jams knows me too well for someone that I haven't even met in person yet ...

It's scary

BTW - Some rapper DID call Kobe an Uncle Tom last year. That kind of stuff along with what I was hearing in my highschool days - Really has pissed me off.

Kobe is looked down by many for being articulate and very well spoken.

wolfpaclaker
Retired Number

Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject:

Quote:

As was some guy known as "magic_bryant

I was bored.

Took the long test thinking about each question slowly (some are hard to answer)

I'm a INTP type too according to this.

Have no IDEA what it means though

uberzev
Franchise Player

Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 19120
Location: SDSU

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject:

I see where you are coming from Wolf. Many people are sensitive when talking about race and you need to choose your words very carefully. Now back on topic, which is that Kobe has an excellent ghost writer. _________________ Lakers Gonna Lake

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