Exerpt from Kobe's Dime Article
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject:

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I see where you are coming from Wolf. Many people are sensitive when talking about race and you need to choose your words very carefully

I agree. I could have stated it differently.

Made the annoying jerk club nomination look real worthy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
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Kobe>Jordan. My opinion

This season, I agree with you

This season, Kobe is the "finished product." I've always tempered my "Kobe is better than Jordan" comments with "at the same age." That is the thing that always gets me, and HAS gotten me about Kobe. For about the first 5 - 6 years of his career, Jordan dominated his opponents with his superior athleticism, and amazing ability to finish around the rim. Jordan also had the "advantage" of having carte blanche to do whatever he pleased on the floor, as the Bulls STUNK and he was hands down their best player. All he did was score, while the Bulls were losing.

Kobe, on the other hand, came into a team with a winning tradition that had just signed Shaquille O'Neal and was expected to contend immediately. He didn't have the same large boundaries with which to showcase his talents. He also played second fiddle to Shaq, and had to tailor his game to be complimentary to another dominating player. So it's only now that the world gets to see what Kobe Bryant is really capable of. Of course, we as Laker fans were well aware of it because we would see flashes of his brilliance when the situation called for it. Kobe could apparently turn it on and off at will, but I'm assuming that the assumption of the rest of the basketball viewing world was that Kobe did not have the ability to consistently dominate ... because he didn't. The possibility that Kobe WAS that good seemed far too sacrelegious to them. The possibility that what Kobe did when the situation called for it was exactly what he was capable of doing all the time was just too much to consider.

The conclusion was always that "Kobe is just succeeding because the defense is so focused on Shaq." The reality was that Kobe was FORCING the defenses to NOT focus on Shaq. "Play the Big Fella straight up, or you're going to get it from me" is what he was dictating to the defenses. And opposing WC playoff teams and coaches know just how lethal Kobe is. Just ask Greg Popovich, and Rick Adelman. Kobe routinely took those teams apart in the playoffs. Kobe's career playoff average against the Spurs is what ... 37 ppg? Hence Bruce Bowen. And let's just call that aberration against Detroit for what it was: A Hack Job. I'm still angry about that series, because the league OBVIOUSLY gave Detroit preferential treatment on the defensive end and completely handcuffed the Lakers. Anyone who watches that series with an unbiased eye will come to the same conclusion. I'm not bitter about it, just stating the facts. You take away the free pass to butcher Kobe that the refs gave Prince and that series is completely different.

Anyway, back to the point that started this whole dissertation of a post off. Kobe has always been compared to Jordan, and at times unfairly. How fair is it to compare a 23 year old kid to the greatest SG, arguably and in the minds of many (TOO many, if you ask me) the greatest player ever to play in the NBA. Of COURSE Kobe is going to come up short on that measuring stick. He was freaking 23 years old. And people want to compare him to the finished product of a Michael Jordan? That's just nuts, it's not even a fair comparison, BUT THE MERE FACT that such a comparison WAS being made - unfairly or not - is a testament to just how damn GOOD this kid is.

Kobe has always been better than Jordan - at the same age. Always. It's only now that Kobe's done it as the sole superstar on his team, AND for ten years solid, that his individual accomplishments are beggining to be noticed and measured with somewhat of a balanced measuring stick. Kobe is light years ahead of the player Jordan was when he was 27. Kobe now, is AS GOOD a player as Jordan was at his absoloute best, during the second three-peat. Jordan was what? 35, 36 then? In fact, I think Kobe is BETTER than Jordan was then. There are aspects of Kobe's game that Jordan could never touch. Jordan NEVER had the range on his shot that Kobe has. Kobe can literally KILL you from anywhere on the floor within 29 feet. Jordan's effective range was about 20 feet. Jordan got the benefit of much more preferrential treatment from the refs, which Kobe is only now beginning to receive, but only in spurts.

Todays atheletes are better. Jordan was athletically in a class of his own when he came into the league. No fault of his own, just the facts. Kobe does not have the same athletic advantage over his peers. He has the advantage of conditioning, but he came into the league as a skinny 6'6 196 lb SG. Also, the defensive rules make it tougher to score. If Jordan had to play against zones the way Kobe does he would not have scored as much as he did, because he simply does not have the shooting ability that Kobe does. And forget all that crap about aggressive hand-checking on the perimeter. Kobe gets butchered on a nightly basis. The refs NEVER let opponents get away with brutalizing Jordan on his way to the basket the way they do Kobe's opponents.

So anyway, I always get long-winded about this subject. But my stance has remained the same for the past eight years. Kobe is MUCH better today, than Jordan was at a similar age and stage of his career. And if Kobe plays another ten years, as he is capable of because of his skill, conditioning, and commitment to his passion, then we aren't even going to be HAVING this discussion. The argument is going to be fought from the inverse perspective - that Jordan, on his best days, was ALMOST as good as Kobe Bryant.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject:

Good points.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone with the overall scoring ability that Kobe has shown this season. He can kill you from anywhere from the court.

Zone him and he'll shoot 3's from outside.
Double him and he'll dribble his way into splitting the trap and then find a way to create a shot off the dribble.
He can score in the post with his unguaradable fadeaway.
His midrange game is excellent too.

I don't think anyone in the league has all those abilities at that high of a level. The combination of having an interior, mid-range and perimeter game is just sick !
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
When I saw the movie Rudy I remember thinking, "What if I worked that hard?" God has blessed me both physically and intellectually to play this game, so what would happen if I push as hard as the character in this film? I would love for people to think of me as a talented overachiever. Even though those fans may chant "Kobe sucks" when they leave that arena I want them to walk out with a different feeling than they came in with. When they leave they'll leave with the understanding that they have just witnessed a player give himself completely to his passion; they have just watched an athlete pour every ounce of his heart and soul out on that floor.

Amazing.

Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!


Careful with your statements.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject:

^
Brother Fourplay, read the entire thread.

I already appologized to those that got offended - TWICE. I chose bad wording ...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject:

maybe it's because i live in italy and i'm only a frequent flyer to l.a., so i can't deeply understand... but it seems to me that someone here overreacted to wolf's words... it seems to me that wolf criticized some black stereotypes, not black culture... and kobe is the perfect prototype of a human being being simply himself, an exception (like all the human beings potentially are) beyond all the stereotypical identities...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject:

Fourplay wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
When I saw the movie Rudy I remember thinking, "What if I worked that hard?" God has blessed me both physically and intellectually to play this game, so what would happen if I push as hard as the character in this film? I would love for people to think of me as a talented overachiever. Even though those fans may chant "Kobe sucks" when they leave that arena I want them to walk out with a different feeling than they came in with. When they leave they'll leave with the understanding that they have just witnessed a player give himself completely to his passion; they have just watched an athlete pour every ounce of his heart and soul out on that floor.

Amazing.

Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!


Careful with your statements.

Did you even bother to read the thread in it's entirety? Wolf has already been vilified enough, and he already apologized for not being more sensitive with his comments, as well as clarifying and expounding upon his position.

If you'd bothered to read the thread for more than just the first seven posts you would have known that already. Honestly, from experience on LG, sometimes it's better to start at the end of a thread and work your way backwards, that way you're not rehashing points that were covered pages ago, and can contribute to the current line of discussion.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject:

Socks wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Quote:

The game is a rhythm, a dance. Phil and Tex have taught me to feel the game. To think the game without thinking, to see without seeing. They taught me how to prepare. How to conceptualize the spirit of my opponents and attack them where they are weak.


Kobe's starting to sound like PJ


Nah...he sounds more like a Jedi, like Luke Skywalker learning about the Force from Yoda.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
dirka dirka wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Ozendorph wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:


Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!


lol, yikes.

Harsh, but it's true.

I am privy to a ton of interviews and post game stuff when team's visit the Toronto Raptors.

Most of the guys couldn't write a sentance let alone an article.


LMAO, maybe you should learn to spell "sentence" before busting an entire race on their writing skills. Perhaps you should have just left it as most NBA players and left race out of it? Just a thought.

It's not race.

Do you forget that Kobe is black too?

All my favorite NBA players are black. My roommate is black and muslim.

So that's not it at all. It's about Kobe's earlier years where i recall a bunch of these guys hating on him because he wasn't as "street" like as the rest of them.

Instead of it being a good thing that Kobe wasn't like them, it was made out to be a bad thing. Infact, It still is by many people.


I love black people...some of my closest friends are black.

Whatever Wolf, you may know some black folks, but you definitely don't understand anything for you to say something that ignorant and racist. It's very presumptuous for you to suggest that other black athletes hate Kobe because he can speak and write well.

And which black athletes have stated they didn't like Kobe because he's not 'street' enough??


Now, now, let’s not make this bigger than it is. He already apologized if he offended anyone, as he was (perhaps not so eloquently) pointing out that many athletes and young, inner city fans really couldn’t relate much to Kobe, because he was “born with a silver spoon” in his mouth. He didn’t and doesn’t really have the same “street” sense about him as most of the other minority athletes in the league, who often come from poorer and rougher neighborhoods. In reality, Kobe wasn’t necessarily raised in a “black” culture, as he was raised in Italy, which is a latin based culture. That explains his taste in Latinas and does, of course, result in a lot of differences between Kobe and his peers. Many people have derided him for that difference, including his peers. That said, Kobe has since earned the respect from his peers, so it’s really a non-issue.

It isn’t taboo to point these things out, although Wolf would probably admit that he could have chosen better wording.


What is your idea of a 'black culture' and what it means to be raised in it? Tell me, please, because I can guarantee that my idea is much broader than yours. See, this is what I'm talking about. I love it when people speak on things they clearly know nothing about. Kobe spent 7 years of his life in Italy. So what?? His mom is still black, right?? How about his dad?? His sisters?? Living in Italy didn't make his acculturation any less 'black' (remember, you're gonna explain to me what that is, being you're an expert and all). It only means he was exposed to more things.

And for the blurb Kobe preferring Latinas, where's your evidence of that?? My mother remarried when I was 10 years old to a white man. She had never dated white men before. They are plenty of people who have never left the country that date outside their race. Kobe dated black girls before he hooked up with Vanessa. And apparently he doesn't have a problem with white girls, either.


You have no idea what race I am or what environment I’ve grown up in, yet you’re drawing conclusions that your opinion is somehow more valid. Being black or white or asian or Hispanic or Indian or anything else, doesn’t make you more or less qualified to talk about culture and environment, and how that relates to human nature. I also highly doubt your idea is “broader” given how defensive and all-knowing you seem to be.

If you choose to believe Kobe was raised in an atypical African American culture as most of his African American peers, that’s your prerogative. Most of them would disagree with you. In fact, many of Kobe’s peers when he chose the high school he attended, resented the fact that he attended a more “privileged” and less “black” school, and that hostility is a big reason why your typical African American Philly fan still doesn’t like Kobe - something you here in Philly to this very day. Kobe, himself, often talked about how he didn’t initially understand much of what his peers were saying on the basketball court, because there was a cultural difference and he hadn’t been exposed to much of the same lingo and attitudes. All these things are part of what constitute culture.

As for taste in women, boys (and girls) will often develop their tastes based upon what their peers are drooling over during their formulative years. In Italy, boys are drooling over young Italian girls, and Kobe is going to have similar reactions and affinities because of that. Doesn’t mean his taste can’t change upon moving to the states or that he hates other races, only that a Latin influence clearly exists there. It is quite normal for human beings to be drawn to the familiarity of childhood cultures.

Not everything is determined by the color of your skin, and I don’t get why you have such a problem with the fact that Kobe is clearly a bit different from his peers, in the sense that he has a clear and discernible “Latin” quality to him.


You are waffling around like a lawyer. I have no idea what race you are, but I do have an idea of what race you are not--please stop trying to justify something that does not deserve justification (what wolfpack said). He said exactly what he wanted to say, and having a black friend here or there doesn't make it better. He apologized, that's enough for me. But you come in (and I happen to be a fan of your posts) and try to rationalize this statement and even inject your own racial opinions. I think we should keep this forum focused on Bball, and place this in another forum (off topic) if we want to discuss racial stereotypes.
By the way, Latinas are HOT no matter what your race is.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject:

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By the way, Latinas are HOT no matter what your race is

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
Walter Sobchak wrote:
Klone_dd wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
In reality, Kobe wasn’t necessarily raised in a “black” culture, as he was raised in Italy, which is a latin based culture. That explains his taste in Latinas and does, of course, result in a lot of differences between Kobe and his peers.


Wha??? Italy is a European-based culture. The language of Latin may have originated there, but to go from Latin the language to "Latina" which refers to someone with a Hispanic origin is really a laughable stretch.


I've heard other people make this connection as well and it is just absurd. I've heard it said that people from Spain or Portugual are considered "Latino" because the language spoken in their countries derives from Latin, and it's just ridiculous. Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese and the French are all western Europeans who are from countries that speak a language derived from Latin. I'm sure the French would be surprised that apparently because of this some would consider them to be "Latinos"


Man, are you SO wrong. Italians are absolutely very "latin" in many, many, many, many, many ways. Spain is a Euro country, as well. Are they not "Latin" at all either?


Can you explain to me how Italians are Latin?

If you go to

http://www.totse.com/en/politics/the_world_beyond_the_usa/themeaningofth170698.html

They give a good explaination of what Latino means/comes from. And it doesn't include Italy (acording to the Census Bureau)

'Now what someone might ask is "So if the Italians invented the Latin language, wouldn't Italian people be Latino? The Census bureau doesn't seem to agree, or at least isn't in touch historically. Their definition of Latin is someone whose racial background comes from Mexico/South America.'
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject:

ppineda wrote:
Can you explain to me how Italians are Latin?

If you go to

http://www.totse.com/en/politics/the_world_beyond_the_usa/themeaningofth170698.html

They give a good explaination of what Latino means/comes from. And it doesn't include Italy (acording to the Census Bureau)

'Now what someone might ask is "So if the Italians invented the Latin language, wouldn't Italian people be Latino? The Census bureau doesn't seem to agree, or at least isn't in touch historically. Their definition of Latin is someone whose racial background comes from Mexico/South America.'

Seriously, who give a ---- what the Census Bureau says? Since when is the U S of Good Ol A the authority on culture and ethnicity? It's only recently that they even acknowledged the existence of multi-racial people in the world. I'm creole, was born in 1976, and look like I could be from just about any country in this world, and do you know what my birth certificate says? It says I'm a "Negro."

So excuse me while I thumb my nose at the basis of the defense for your argument being how the Census Bureau defines Latin. As a whole, Americans are the most culturally ignorant and illiterate people in the entire world.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject:

Its funny how this thread which was suppose to be about Kobe & his intense motivation turned into a racism philosophy/latinas & other off-topic thread
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject:

K8KillerInstinct wrote:
Its funny how this thread which was suppose to be about Kobe & his intense motivation turned into a racism philosophy/latinas & other off-topic thread

Yeah, well, I tried to make it about Kobe being better than Jordan, but somehow it keeps turning back. I have a feeling that it's going to end up in the Off Topic section if this keeps up.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject:

First - Wolf I accept your apology for all offended Americans. Especially us Black ones who were deemed to be white on the inside.

Second - I grew up similar to Kobe (not being Black enough). Believe me, the hate is real. My forum was hip-hop. I sounded "too white to be a rapper." In a way they were correct. I'm an emcee, not a rapper. All this would stop once I'd stomp a verbal mudhole in their asses. I came close to getting shot a few times.
The hate really doesn't dissappear until you give the ignorant people a track record of success that quadruples anything their "black enough" friends/peers have done. Then the respect comes. By that time, you don't need it because your self belief is immense, but it is gratifying to see you can open up peoples eyes.

Third - I could have swore I wrote a comment on this article and I can't find it anywhere in the thread. I am very impressed with his willingness to let that much information about his doubts out.

Fourth - If Kobe could be daunted by the negative comments and difficulty of learning the facilitator role in the triangle, why do we (fans) expect so much out of a less talented Lamar?

Not that Lamar is not capable, but he has a less experienced supporting cast and has not yet shown the mental fortitude of Kobe Bryant, but we expect him to be proficient in his role in 6 months?

Factor in his off-season shoulder surgery that is apparently affecting his mid range game and I wonder if we are projecting our doubts about the whole Laker Organization onto Lamar.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject:

psydesho wrote:
First - Wolf I accept your apology for all offended Americans. Especially us Black ones who were deemed to be white on the inside.

Second - I grew up similar to Kobe (not being Black enough). Believe me, the hate is real. My forum was hip-hop. I sounded "too white to be a rapper." In a way they were correct. I'm an emcee, not a rapper. All this would stop once I'd stomp a verbal mudhole in their asses. I came close to getting shot a few times.
The hate really doesn't dissappear until you give the ignorant people a track record of success that quadruples anything their "black enough" friends/peers have done. Then the respect comes. By that time, you don't need it because your self belief is immense, but it is gratifying to see you can open up peoples eyes.

Third - I could have swore I wrote a comment on this article and I can't find it anywhere in the thread. I am very impressed with his willingness to let that much information about his doubts out.

Fourth - If Kobe could be daunted by the negative comments and difficulty of learning the facilitator role in the triangle, why do we (fans) expect so much out of a less talented Lamar?

Not that Lamar is not capable, but he has a less experienced supporting cast and has not yet shown the mental fortitude of Kobe Bryant, but we expect him to be proficient in his role in 6 months?

Factor in his off-season shoulder surgery that is apparently affecting his mid range game and I wonder if we are projecting our doubts about the whole Laker Organization onto Lamar.



Excellent post.

I am glad you see my point and agree with everything you just said.

Kobe found it hard to facilitate an offense that had Shaq, Rice and some savy Tri vets in Harper/Grant as well as solid role players ....

This is half the team at best of what Kobe had to run. You can't even compare the two situations in terms of how much easier it was to make mistakes and get away with it with Shaq inside (just pound the ball in for an easy two) as opposed to making mistakes with no real interior player (they have noone to go to inside for an easy basket when the offense becomes stagnant)....
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject:

Kobe2Lamar wrote:
Quote:
Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.


I think it's most athletes in general. There are many stupid sounding white ballers too



Yeah - the one's that think they're black.



Before you cap me for that comment, name the white ballers who sound stupid. (The ones from Europe who can't speak English don't count.)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject:

Socks wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Quote:

The game is a rhythm, a dance. Phil and Tex have taught me to feel the game. To think the game without thinking, to see without seeing. They taught me how to prepare. How to conceptualize the spirit of my opponents and attack them where they are weak.


Kobe's starting to sound like PJ

He's sounding more like Bruce Lee
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject:

Alpha wrote:
Now if I can only track down a copy of that cruddy mag here in Hawaii...


haha you live in hawaii too? sucks huh
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!


There it is fellas!

FEAST!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
psydesho wrote:
First - Wolf I accept your apology for all offended Americans. Especially us Black ones who were deemed to be white on the inside.

Second - I grew up similar to Kobe (not being Black enough). Believe me, the hate is real. My forum was hip-hop. I sounded "too white to be a rapper." In a way they were correct. I'm an emcee, not a rapper. All this would stop once I'd stomp a verbal mudhole in their asses. I came close to getting shot a few times.
The hate really doesn't dissappear until you give the ignorant people a track record of success that quadruples anything their "black enough" friends/peers have done. Then the respect comes. By that time, you don't need it because your self belief is immense, but it is gratifying to see you can open up peoples eyes.

Third - I could have swore I wrote a comment on this article and I can't find it anywhere in the thread. I am very impressed with his willingness to let that much information about his doubts out.

Fourth - If Kobe could be daunted by the negative comments and difficulty of learning the facilitator role in the triangle, why do we (fans) expect so much out of a less talented Lamar?

Not that Lamar is not capable, but he has a less experienced supporting cast and has not yet shown the mental fortitude of Kobe Bryant, but we expect him to be proficient in his role in 6 months?

Factor in his off-season shoulder surgery that is apparently affecting his mid range game and I wonder if we are projecting our doubts about the whole Laker Organization onto Lamar.



Excellent post.

I am glad you see my point and agree with everything you just said.

Kobe found it hard to facilitate an offense that had Shaq, Rice and some savy Tri vets in Harper/Grant as well as solid role players ....

This is half the team at best of what Kobe had to run. You can't even compare the two situations in terms of how much easier it was to make mistakes and get away with it with Shaq inside (just pound the ball in for an easy two) as opposed to making mistakes with no real interior player (they have noone to go to inside for an easy basket when the offense becomes stagnant)....


We should stick to basketball in this forum but I agree with wolf and the people who have spoke up for him. I'm not trying to pick a verbal war but in recent times, people have become increasingly sensitive to anything that can be viewed as racially insensitive or biggotry.

It's almost more "in" to the the ultimate PC person than to accept that generalizations (stereotypes) exist for a reason. They happen to relate to the majority of the group in question.

Think back several years when Kobe was with Addidas, how many posters didn't agree with the way Kobe was portrayed in those commercials. Why did many people not like them? It didn't put Kobe into a favorable light with the people who bought shoes and the kids who breathed basketball. It alienated the core group of people who truly support this game. Kobe bought out his own contract and left to rework the image that was cast on him after that (well, that and the fact that some of those shoes were just plain ugly)

If those people cannot relate to Kobe on that level, then yes, Kobe has grown up differently from the majority of the vocal and active ballers. Wolf has apologized about the wording but those stigmas are still there whether someone chooses to ignore them and be PC about things.
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NoMoreGame7s
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject:

kobesNBA wrote:
Quote:
Now I know why so many black NBA players hate Kobe.

He can read and write at a level they could only dream of.

Excellent stuff !!


There it is fellas!

FEAST!!!


Where have you been?
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