Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:38 am Post subject:
Today's centers would get embarrassed by a lot of the great centers of years past. Cap, Shaq, and Hakeem would make these guys look ridiculous. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
How about DeAndre who somebody here considers better than Duncan? _________________ “Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
― Isaac Asimov
My father first started taking me to Lakers games when Wilt was our center. For the younger fans who never saw Wilt but maybe saw Shaq's good years, Wilt was Shaq-like (the in-shape, MVP Shaq) in that he wore his size very naturally and comfortably, yet he was still fast and quick, all while being powerful enough to tear your head off.
What doesn't come across in the videos is the presence Wilt had. It was like standing in front of a lion or swimming with a big shark. I can only imagine what kind of never-to-be-broken defensive stats Wilt would have if we'd had SportVU back then, because he would intimidate guys like nothing I've ever seen.
I have zero doubts an athlete of Wilt's caliber would excel in any era, including the current one.
My father first started taking me to Lakers games when Wilt was our center. For the younger fans who never saw Wilt but maybe saw Shaq's good years, Wilt was Shaq-like (the in-shape, MVP Shaq) in that he wore his size very naturally and comfortably, yet he was still fast and quick, all while being powerful enough to tear your head off.
What doesn't come across in the videos is the presence Wilt had. It was like standing in front of a lion or swimming with a big shark. I can only imagine what kind of never-to-be-broken defensive stats Wilt would have if we'd had SportVU back then, because he would intimidate guys like nothing I've ever seen.
I have zero doubts an athlete of Wilt's caliber would excel in any era, including the current one.
Someone posted a video of Wilt and Shaq shaking hands before a game, when Shaq was in the NBA already. Even then, with Wilt probably in his late 50's, he jerked Shaq's arm like he was kid. I wish I could have seen him in person.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:46 am Post subject:
A classic sonning: _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
_________________ “It took many years of vomiting up all the filth I’d been taught about myself, and half-believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here.”
― James Baldwin, Collected Essays
Even Alonzo Mourning would embarrass today's centers.
Well, Zo would hold his own today about the same way he did in his own era, bu frankly he didn't embarrass many even in his own day. He was a very good interior defender and an excellent help defender but he could be baited out of good position and he was overwhelmed by a lot of scoring centers in his own era.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35750 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:23 am Post subject:
70sdude wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Even Alonzo Mourning would embarrass today's centers.
Well, Zo would hold his own today about the same way he did in his own era, bu frankly he didn't embarrass many even in his own day. He was a very good interior defender and an excellent help defender but he could be baited out of good position and he was overwhelmed by a lot of scoring centers in his own era.
Today's centers are far worse though.Would you take him over Dwight? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18190 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:27 am Post subject:
7'9" wingspan! Claims he could bench 600.
Always loved that quote from Bob Lanier about Wilt just picking him up and moving him out of the way. Anyone who remembers Lanier knows he was a big dude. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant
Always loved that quote from Bob Lanier about Wilt just picking him up and moving him out of the way. Anyone who remembers Lanier knows he was a big dude.
Lanier was a load, the guy who probably holds the NBA career record for fouls called for throwing elbows. I never saw him out-muscled inside. never.
Even Alonzo Mourning would embarrass today's centers.
Well, Zo would hold his own today about the same way he did in his own era, bu frankly he didn't embarrass many even in his own day. He was a very good interior defender and an excellent help defender but he could be baited out of good position and he was overwhelmed by a lot of scoring centers in his own era.
Today's centers are far worse though.Would you take him over Dwight?
I'd prefer Zo over Dwight slightly for being a better passer, having a better hoops IQ and showing more versatility as a scorer. I feel they are essentially rather close to the same level of player in their own eras. I watched Zo get humiliated by Christian Laettner in the NCAA tourney, and so have a feeling that he'd have plenty of trouble guarding these three point shooting centers of today too.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:58 am Post subject:
vanexelent wrote:
etmo wrote:
My father first started taking me to Lakers games when Wilt was our center. For the younger fans who never saw Wilt but maybe saw Shaq's good years, Wilt was Shaq-like (the in-shape, MVP Shaq) in that he wore his size very naturally and comfortably, yet he was still fast and quick, all while being powerful enough to tear your head off.
What doesn't come across in the videos is the presence Wilt had. It was like standing in front of a lion or swimming with a big shark. I can only imagine what kind of never-to-be-broken defensive stats Wilt would have if we'd had SportVU back then, because he would intimidate guys like nothing I've ever seen.
I have zero doubts an athlete of Wilt's caliber would excel in any era, including the current one.
Someone posted a video of Wilt and Shaq shaking hands before a game, when Shaq was in the NBA already. Even then, with Wilt probably in his late 50's, he jerked Shaq's arm like he was kid. I wish I could have seen him in person.
I never saw Wilt in person, but on TV many times. He would be the best player in the league today, hands down. Lebron actually reminds me a little of Wilt, extreme physical talent and the ability to use those talents. I know it is cool to dismiss Lebron here, but I think he will end up being at least a top 10 all time talent. And Wilt is there as well. As for Zo, he still remains the greatest high school player I have ever seen live. He would dominate Dwight today. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject:
The one thing about Wilt that is odd is that out of any of the all-time greats in NBA history, his stats would drop off far more in the playoffs compared to the regular season. You look at guys like Magic, Kobe, MJ, Cap, Shaq, Bird, Hakeem, etc. and they either stayed at a similar level or got even better in the postseason. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
The one thing about Wilt that is odd is that out of any of the all-time greats in NBA history, his stats would drop off far more in the playoffs compared to the regular season. You look at guys like Magic, Kobe, MJ, Cap, Shaq, Bird, Hakeem, etc. and they either stayed at a similar level or got even better in the postseason.
i don't know for sure, but i don't think what you are saying is true. i don't think all those guys' stats got better in the playoffs. things change in the playoffs. in a case like wilt, since the stakes are higher in the playoffs, all of the defensive strategies will be focused much more on wilt than during a regular season game so that the other team has a better chance of winning. instead of doubling him, they may triple him more often. so of course his stats will go down. not only is he the best player on the team, but he is like this uber-super-best player, so the focuse will be even more intense.
Kobe does not have better playoff stats than regular season, i'm not sure mj does either. one laker that did consistently get better stats in the playoffs is worthy. but that's because he isn't the #1 guy on the team. so in the playoffs, when the defense is focusing more intensely on magic and kareem, sure, worthy will become more of the star.
so just be careful about these kinds of judgements on the players. the stats really don't tell that much of the story.
when wilt won the ring with the lakers, he did so with much lower stats than his previous seasons. that's because he literally sacrificed all those numbers for the sake of the team. not because he wasn't a good player or too old or something. i really wish people would stop throwing around the accolades/awards/stats when comparing INDIVIDUALS because none of it holds any weight. it's a team sport and all the numbers are very messy.
I saw Wilt when we were in the middle of a 33 game win streak. I have never since seen anything like him. Describing Wilt is extremely hard to do without lapsing into language that defies belief. I try to stay out of these all timer conversations because new guys always get rated higher than older guys. West, Magic, and Kobe are my favorite three players of all time and not by a little. That said, Wilt was the best that I have ever seen and he was well past his prime when I saw him.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:25 pm Post subject:
I saw Wilt play, I also saw Wilt up close after his knee injury signing autographs at the Forum for the kids. He was sitting in a chair on the main level at the Forum, no staff just Wilt signing autographs, his knees were taller than the kids. The good old days. I also had family that owned a masonry yard that delivered masonry supplies to Wits home in the Hollywood Hills. His home was spectacular according to the deliver drivers, some accounts had his pool entering the house, you could access the pool from the inside of his home. I also have Wilts autograph. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:37 pm Post subject:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
i don't know for sure, but i don't think what you are saying is true. i don't think all those guys' stats got better in the playoffs. things change in the playoffs. in a case like wilt, since the stakes are higher in the playoffs, all of the defensive strategies will be focused much more on wilt than during a regular season game so that the other team has a better chance of winning. instead of doubling him, they may triple him more often. so of course his stats will go down. not only is he the best player on the team, but he is like this uber-super-best player, so the focuse will be even more intense.
Kobe does not have better playoff stats than regular season, i'm not sure mj does either. one laker that did consistently get better stats in the playoffs is worthy. but that's because he isn't the #1 guy on the team. so in the playoffs, when the defense is focusing more intensely on magic and kareem, sure, worthy will become more of the star.
so just be careful about these kinds of judgements on the players. the stats really don't tell that much of the story.
when wilt won the ring with the lakers, he did so with much lower stats than his previous seasons. that's because he literally sacrificed all those numbers for the sake of the team. not because he wasn't a good player or too old or something. i really wish people would stop throwing around the accolades/awards/stats when comparing INDIVIDUALS because none of it holds any weight. it's a team sport and all the numbers are very messy.
All you have to do is go to basketball-reference.com and you'll see I'm correct. There were multiple years where his playoff numbers very clearly dropped compared to his regular season numbers during the very same year. Then go back and look at the regular and postseason numbers for the same season for guys like MJ, Kobe, Hakeem, Cap, Magic, and Bird. In nearly every season for ALL those guys, they either stayed at a very similar level or improved in the postseason.
IMO, Wilt was one of the most incredible athletes in ANY sport ever and would run circles around any of today's centers. However, I do find it odd that the significant drop in production during the playoffs happened to him multiple times. Nothing to that extent happened to any of those other all-time greats I've mentioned.
On another note, stop running away from questions about why you think Sampson, McHale, and Mikan are better than Duncan on that other thread. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 3079 Location: Portugal
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:07 am Post subject:
These comparisons are not valid.
Wilt was an atrocious foul shooter and would be subjected to a hack-a-wilt.
He had no jumper, and there is now zone defence.
The passing game through the centre makes no sense.
His open finger rolls would be rejected by point guard.
Of course he would be a very very good player, but dominate players two generations after his is simply not credible.
I can't imagine Bob Cousy dribbling around a Kyrie Irving. _________________ -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:55 am Post subject:
These era comparisons are never going to apples to apples. If you time traveled him from the 60s to now, yeah, he's not going to dominate, although he'd still be pretty good on physical talents alone. If you cloned him and he developed his game in the modern era with his freakish abilities, then he would dominate, although his numbers may not be as high.
i don't know for sure, but i don't think what you are saying is true. i don't think all those guys' stats got better in the playoffs. things change in the playoffs. in a case like wilt, since the stakes are higher in the playoffs, all of the defensive strategies will be focused much more on wilt than during a regular season game so that the other team has a better chance of winning. instead of doubling him, they may triple him more often. so of course his stats will go down. not only is he the best player on the team, but he is like this uber-super-best player, so the focuse will be even more intense.
Kobe does not have better playoff stats than regular season, i'm not sure mj does either. one laker that did consistently get better stats in the playoffs is worthy. but that's because he isn't the #1 guy on the team. so in the playoffs, when the defense is focusing more intensely on magic and kareem, sure, worthy will become more of the star.
so just be careful about these kinds of judgements on the players. the stats really don't tell that much of the story.
when wilt won the ring with the lakers, he did so with much lower stats than his previous seasons. that's because he literally sacrificed all those numbers for the sake of the team. not because he wasn't a good player or too old or something. i really wish people would stop throwing around the accolades/awards/stats when comparing INDIVIDUALS because none of it holds any weight. it's a team sport and all the numbers are very messy.
All you have to do is go to basketball-reference.com and you'll see I'm correct. There were multiple years where his playoff numbers very clearly dropped compared to his regular season numbers during the very same year. Then go back and look at the regular and postseason numbers for the same season for guys like MJ, Kobe, Hakeem, Cap, Magic, and Bird. In nearly every season for ALL those guys, they either stayed at a very similar level or improved in the postseason.
IMO, Wilt was one of the most incredible athletes in ANY sport ever and would run circles around any of today's centers. However, I do find it odd that the significant drop in production during the playoffs happened to him multiple times. Nothing to that extent happened to any of those other all-time greats I've mentioned.
On another note, stop running away from questions about why you think Sampson, McHale, and Mikan are better than Duncan on that other thread.
It was a very slight statistical decline. Even given that, the conventional take on Wilt suffering a slight statistical decline in playoff basketball follows.
1. Change in playoff team depth and quality: Through 1973 (the last year of Wilt's career) the Eastern and Western "divisions" (now conferences) ran playoffs that were only two series deep before The Finals only. Wilt's Sixers faced the league's best defensive team (Celtics) in either the first or second round every year. That doesn't happen to Magic, Bird, or Cap in later years. Even Wilt's Lakers faced the Knicks (in the Finals) or the Celtics. The league's weaker defensive sisters weren't there to be mauled so easily. This alone accounts for a statistical decline for Wilt and other post players. In later years, the playoffs were lengthened from five games to seven and deepened to include a third round before the Finals. These fellers you held so highly as statistical superiors (Magic, Bird, Cap) never faced a continually strong defensive team as strong as the sixties Celtics in either half- or all of - their playoff excursions.
2. The three point shot didn't exist in Wilt's era. Teams were able to clog the middle more easily, harassing him and surrounding him with physical play that was not permitted to the same extent in the regular season. The smartest defensive teams (Knicks, Celtics) did with this regularity. This amplifies item #1; that the smart teams could take away some of Wilt's best stats. You'll note that season scoring averages fell in the post season for all of the era's stars on the inside, including Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor and Bob Pettit (the game's premier interior players).
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