Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:37 am Post subject:
70sdude wrote:
It was a very slight statistical decline. Even given that, the conventional take on Wilt suffering a slight statistical decline in playoff basketball follows.
1. Change in playoff team depth and quality: Through 1973 (the last year of Wilt's career) the Eastern and Western "divisions" (now conferences) ran playoffs that were only two series deep before The Finals only. Wilt's Sixers faced the league's best defensive team (Celtics) in either the first or second round every year. That doesn't happen to Magic, Bird, or Cap in later years. Even Wilt's Lakers faced the Knicks (in the Finals) or the Celtics. The league's weaker defensive sisters weren't there to be mauled so easily. This alone accounts for a statistical decline for Wilt and other post players. In later years, the playoffs were lengthened from five games to seven and deepened to include a third round before the Finals. These fellers you held so highly as statistical superiors (Magic, Bird, Cap) never faced a continually strong defensive team as strong as the sixties Celtics in either half- or all of - their playoff excursions.
2. The three point shot didn't exist in Wilt's era. Teams were able to clog the middle more easily, harassing him and surrounding him with physical play that was not permitted to the same extent in the regular season. The smartest defensive teams (Knicks, Celtics) did with this regularity. This amplifies item #1; that the smart teams could take away some of Wilt's best stats. You'll note that season scoring averages fell in the post season for all of the era's stars on the inside, including Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor and Bob Pettit (the game's premier interior players).
I don't really consider a 30.1 ppg career regular season avg dropping to a career 22.5ppg playoff average a slight decline (and he only missed the playoffs once if I'm not mistaken). You do have some good points about the shorter playoff schedule compared to the more recent greats (Kobe, MJ, Magic, Bird, Cap, Hakeem). However, Bill Russell's career playoff scoring avg actually went up compared to his regular season avg. Elgin's average dropped by a mere 0.4 points in the playoffs vs. his regular season avg. Whether in his era or not in his era, what happened with Wilt sticks out compared to all the other guys talked about as being in the all-time Top 10. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:18 am Post subject:
Wilt's career scoring average in the playoffs fell significantly when he joined to Lakers, and ironically, was his career low with each team in those two post-seasons he won his two NBA championships ('67, '72). Maybe it's the converse actually, that he actually raised his game in the post-season by deferring to others (assists way up in '67, and his scoring dropped), and when it dropped the most, he won the biggest.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:34 am Post subject:
Wilkes52 wrote:
Wilt's career scoring average in the playoffs fell significantly when he joined to Lakers, and ironically, was his career low with each team in those two post-seasons he won his two NBA championships ('67, '72). Maybe it's the converse actually, that he actually raised his game in the post-season by deferring to others (assists way up in '67, and his scoring dropped), and when it dropped the most, he won the biggest.
His legendary 50ppg 1961-62 regular season is where it dropped the most in the playoffs. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
I love how he could extend his arm and sorta flip the ball down into the basket. Yeah, they'd have to change the rules if Wilt played today because it would take all 5 of the opposing players on a team to slow him down.
I love how he could extend his arm and sorta flip the ball down into the basket. Yeah, they'd have to change the rules if Wilt played today because it would take all 5 of the opposing players on a team to slow him down.
They changed the rules a number of times because Wilt was too dominant, including changing the size of the lane.
Wilt's career scoring average in the playoffs fell significantly when he joined to Lakers, and ironically, was his career low with each team in those two post-seasons he won his two NBA championships ('67, '72). Maybe it's the converse actually, that he actually raised his game in the post-season by deferring to others (assists way up in '67, and his scoring dropped), and when it dropped the most, he won the biggest.
In 1967, he had a coach he respected who convinced Wilt he was surrounded by great teammates. That made Wilt a better teammate though his love of stats continued (he set a personal target to lead the league in assists, which he did.)
In 1972, similar thing happened. A new coach he respected, Bill Sharman, convinced him to focus on rebounding and fast break passing.
These comparisons are not valid.
Wilt was an atrocious foul shooter and would be subjected to a hack-a-wilt.
He had no jumper, and there is now zone defence.
The passing game through the centre makes no sense.
His open finger rolls would be rejected by point guard.
Of course he would be a very very good player, but dominate players two generations after his is simply not credible.
I can't imagine Bob Cousy dribbling around a Kyrie Irving.
Wilt had no jumper? That was one of his patented shots.
Wilt shot the fadeaway, the finger roll, and the dipper dunk... he's famous for those. The fade away and bank shot is unstoppable today, in the hands of smaller inferior athletes and physical specimens like Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki. There's no answer for Wilt's scoring arsenal, that's why he's got all those records.
Last edited by dantheman9758 on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
It was a very slight statistical decline. Even given that, the conventional take on Wilt suffering a slight statistical decline in playoff basketball follows.
1. Change in playoff team depth and quality: Through 1973 (the last year of Wilt's career) the Eastern and Western "divisions" (now conferences) ran playoffs that were only two series deep before The Finals only. Wilt's Sixers faced the league's best defensive team (Celtics) in either the first or second round every year. That doesn't happen to Magic, Bird, or Cap in later years. Even Wilt's Lakers faced the Knicks (in the Finals) or the Celtics. The league's weaker defensive sisters weren't there to be mauled so easily. This alone accounts for a statistical decline for Wilt and other post players. In later years, the playoffs were lengthened from five games to seven and deepened to include a third round before the Finals. These fellers you held so highly as statistical superiors (Magic, Bird, Cap) never faced a continually strong defensive team as strong as the sixties Celtics in either half- or all of - their playoff excursions.
2. The three point shot didn't exist in Wilt's era. Teams were able to clog the middle more easily, harassing him and surrounding him with physical play that was not permitted to the same extent in the regular season. The smartest defensive teams (Knicks, Celtics) did with this regularity. This amplifies item #1; that the smart teams could take away some of Wilt's best stats. You'll note that season scoring averages fell in the post season for all of the era's stars on the inside, including Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor and Bob Pettit (the game's premier interior players).
I don't really consider a 30.1 ppg career regular season avg dropping to a career 22.5ppg playoff average a slight decline (and he only missed the playoffs once if I'm not mistaken). You do have some good points about the shorter playoff schedule compared to the more recent greats (Kobe, MJ, Magic, Bird, Cap, Hakeem). However, Bill Russell's career playoff scoring avg actually went up compared to his regular season avg. Elgin's average dropped by a mere 0.4 points in the playoffs vs. his regular season avg. Whether in his era or not in his era, what happened with Wilt sticks out compared to all the other guys talked about as being in the all-time Top 10.
Wilt's playoff stats are not linearly lined up with his regular season stats because early in his career under scoring roles there ween't the same number of playoff rounds and playoff games as later in his career under different roles.
These comparisons are not valid.
Wilt was an atrocious foul shooter and would be subjected to a hack-a-wilt.
He had no jumper, and there is now zone defence.
The passing game through the centre makes no sense.
His open finger rolls would be rejected by point guard.
Of course he would be a very very good player, but dominate players two generations after his is simply not credible.
I can't imagine Bob Cousy dribbling around a Kyrie Irving.
Wilt had no jumper? That was one of his patented shots.
Wilt shot the fadeaway, the finger roll, and the dipper dunk... he's famous for those. The fade away and bank shot is unstoppable today, in the hands of smaller inferior athletes and physical specimens like Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki. There's no answer for Wilt's scoring arsenal, that's why he's got all those records.
Yea...sometimes these comments/reactions are too much. That video really did a number on me, the idea of Wilt being a proficient fadeaway jump shooter is too amazing. These are very legit jump shot fadeaways...he gets up in the air, not just a little stepback. To act like this is not crazy impressive or is from an old era that doesn't matter is a little bit nonsense.
Wilt's playoff stats are not linearly lined up with his regular season stats because early in his career under scoring roles there ween't the same number of playoff rounds and playoff games as later in his career under different roles.
That's one factor. Others would tell you:
1. A disproportionate number of his playoff games were against Russell and the Celtics, and his regular season scoring average was lower against them too.
2. Wilt stat-padded in the regular season and focused in the playoffs, so he shot less but played better.
As with everything Wilt, any analysis is probably more complex than it looks at first. Wilt did score less in the playoffs, but the difference isn't as big as it looks at first glance and you can argue whether the scoring drop is a positive or a negative.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject:
dantheman9758 wrote:
Wilt's playoff stats are not linearly lined up with his regular season stats because early in his career under scoring roles there ween't the same number of playoff rounds and playoff games as later in his career under different roles.
The ratio of regular season games under those same roles is vastly different. It skews his career regular season and playoff cumulative averages.
A possible factor, but other old timers like Mikan and Elgin stayed much more consistent between the regular season and playoffs. West wasn't affected by this either. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
That's one factor. Others would tell you:
1. A disproportionate number of his playoff games were against Russell and the Celtics, and his regular season scoring average was lower against them too.
2. Wilt stat-padded in the regular season and focused in the playoffs, so he shot less but played better.
As with everything Wilt, any analysis is probably more complex than it looks at first. Wilt did score less in the playoffs, but the difference isn't as big as it looks at first glance and you can argue whether the scoring drop is a positive or a negative.
Thanks, activeverb. I always thought the drop in his numbers were odd and haven't seen another all-time great in the history of the game that had this happen to him. But these are definitely some good points. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Wilt's playoff stats are not linearly lined up with his regular season stats because early in his career under scoring roles there ween't the same number of playoff rounds and playoff games as later in his career under different roles.
The ratio of regular season games under those same roles is vastly different. It skews his career regular season and playoff cumulative averages.
A possible factor, but other old timers like Mikan and Elgin stayed much more consistent between the regular season and playoffs. West wasn't affected by this either.
It's not just a "possible" factor It IS the factor. Or at least the primary one. The one that skews the numbers more than anything else. I'm not presenting you with a theory, I'm showing you the facts you can check the numbers for yourself. Look at his stats season to season. The "drop off" between regular season and playoffs season to season is not gigantic like his career stats indicate due to the skew I'm referring to.
Wilt's roles changed. Wilt went from a guy asked to take X amount of shots, to Y, to Z. At least 3 vastly different roles. And he played relatively more playoff games under roles Y and Z than he did under role X compared to his regular season games.
Those players you mentioned, or any other player for that matter, didn't change their games like Wilt did spanning a change in playoff game numbers. Wilt's NBA career is unique in how drastically he changed his game multiple times and on top of that he did it when playoff games were being gradually increased as his career progressed. Which is why the shift in playoff games played per season affects Wilt's career playoff stats so much. He's got kind of a unique case here, and it makes his career regular season to playoff game stats comparison misleading.
Last edited by dantheman9758 on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject:
dantheman9758 wrote:
It's not just a "possible" factor It IS the factor. I'm not presenting you a theory, I'm showing you the facts.
Wilt's roles changed. Wilt went from a guy asked to take X amount of shots, to Y, to Z. At least 3 vastly different roles. And he played a relatively more playoff games under roles Y and Z than he did under role X compared to his regular season games.
Those players you mentioned, nor any other player really, didn't change their games like Wilt did. Wilt's NBA career is unique in how drastically he changed his game multiple times. Which is why the shift in playoff games played per season affects Wilt's career stats so much.
Did his role change drastically during the same year from regular season to postseason? Because looking at each season one by one, he had a big drop off from regular to postseason in many of them and not just overall when he became less of a scorer with the Lakers later in his career. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
It's not just a "possible" factor It IS the factor. I'm not presenting you a theory, I'm showing you the facts.
Wilt's roles changed. Wilt went from a guy asked to take X amount of shots, to Y, to Z. At least 3 vastly different roles. And he played a relatively more playoff games under roles Y and Z than he did under role X compared to his regular season games.
Those players you mentioned, nor any other player really, didn't change their games like Wilt did. Wilt's NBA career is unique in how drastically he changed his game multiple times. Which is why the shift in playoff games played per season affects Wilt's career stats so much.
Did his role change drastically during the same year from regular season to postseason? Because looking at each season one by one, he had a big drop off from regular to postseason in many of them and not just overall when he became less of a scorer with the Lakers later in his career.
In some respects it did.
You also have to account for his stats and match ups versus certain teams. For example in 1962, his 50ppg season, he actually only averaged 39ppg against the Celtics in the regular season. The Celtics ended up being the team he played for 7 of the 12 playoff games in 1962. While his scoring was lower against both Syracuse and Boston, his play was credited by the media and opponents as being outstanding.
He beat the Syracuse team in 5 games averaging 37. Can't really criticize him for not gunning for 50 as his team won and he was still shattering records, his final game he set the playoffs scoring record and broke 6 other records and had a 56 point 35 rebound 12 block triple double.
He averaged 33.5ppg against the Celtics in the Playoffs. Outplayed Bill Russell in several crucial games, in fact scored 16 points in the fourth quarter of one game to come back from an 11 point deficit. In the final game where he only scored 22 points he was praised for as you mentioned, playing a different role. And the Warriors only lost that game by a Sam Jones buzzer beater. The Warriors were likely that one buzzer beater from a title that season - they were a superior team than LA. Actually like in a prior game, Wilt made a run to keep them in the game. With only 50 seconds to go the Warriors were down by 5 in that 7th game. Wilt scored those 5 points, prior to Sam Jones buzzer beater. Wilt played magnificent those playoffs, he was praised by his opponents and coach.
So while you may stare at a stat sheet years later and raise an eyebrow, that kind of thing wasn't being done when he was out there playing and impacting those games in ways the stat sheets don't always reveal:
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject:
dantheman9758 wrote:
You also have to account for his stats and match ups versus certain teams. For example in 1962, his 50ppg season, he actually only averaged 39ppg against the Celtics in the regular season. The Celtics ended up being the team he played for 7 of the 12 playoff games in 1962. While his scoring was lower against both Syracuse and Boston, his play was credited by the media and opponents as being outstanding.
He beat the Syracuse team in 5 games averaging 37. Can't really criticize him for not gunning for 50 as his team won and he was still shattering records, his final game he set the playoffs scoring record and broke 6 other records and had a 56 point 35 rebound 12 block triple double.
He averaged 33.5ppg against the Celtics in the Playoffs. Outplayed Bill Russell in several crucial games, in fact scored 16 points in the fourth quarter of one game to come back from an 11 point deficit. In the final game where he only scored 22 points he was praised for as you mentioned, playing a different role. And the Warriors only lost that game by a Sam Jones buzzer beater. The Warriors were likely that one buzzer beater from a title that season - they were a superior team than LA. Actually like in a prior game, Wilt made a run to keep them in the game. With only 50 seconds to go the Warriors were down by 5 in that 7th game. Wilt scored those 5 points, prior to Sam Jones buzzer beater. Wilt played magnificent those playoffs, he was praised by his opponents and coach.
So while you may stare at a stat sheet years later and raise an eyebrow, that kind of thing wasn't being done when he was out there playing and impacting those games in ways the stat sheets don't always reveal:
Interesting info. Thanks, dantheman9758. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
You also have to account for his stats and match ups versus certain teams. For example in 1962, his 50ppg season, he actually only averaged 39ppg against the Celtics in the regular season. The Celtics ended up being the team he played for 7 of the 12 playoff games in 1962. While his scoring was lower against both Syracuse and Boston, his play was credited by the media and opponents as being outstanding.
He beat the Syracuse team in 5 games averaging 37. Can't really criticize him for not gunning for 50 as his team won and he was still shattering records, his final game he set the playoffs scoring record and broke 6 other records and had a 56 point 35 rebound 12 block triple double.
He averaged 33.5ppg against the Celtics in the Playoffs. Outplayed Bill Russell in several crucial games, in fact scored 16 points in the fourth quarter of one game to come back from an 11 point deficit. In the final game where he only scored 22 points he was praised for as you mentioned, playing a different role. And the Warriors only lost that game by a Sam Jones buzzer beater. The Warriors were likely that one buzzer beater from a title that season - they were a superior team than LA. Actually like in a prior game, Wilt made a run to keep them in the game. With only 50 seconds to go the Warriors were down by 5 in that 7th game. Wilt scored those 5 points, prior to Sam Jones buzzer beater. Wilt played magnificent those playoffs, he was praised by his opponents and coach.
So while you may stare at a stat sheet years later and raise an eyebrow, that kind of thing wasn't being done when he was out there playing and impacting those games in ways the stat sheets don't always reveal:
Thanks. I'll check it out. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
I love how he could extend his arm and sorta flip the ball down into the basket. Yeah, they'd have to change the rules if Wilt played today because it would take all 5 of the opposing players on a team to slow him down.
They changed the rules a number of times because Wilt was too dominant, including changing the size of the lane.
Yeah, I remember Chick Hearn alluding to that back in the day.
You also have to account for his stats and match ups versus certain teams. For example in 1962, his 50ppg season, he actually only averaged 39ppg against the Celtics in the regular season. The Celtics ended up being the team he played for 7 of the 12 playoff games in 1962. While his scoring was lower against both Syracuse and Boston, his play was credited by the media and opponents as being outstanding.
He beat the Syracuse team in 5 games averaging 37. Can't really criticize him for not gunning for 50 as his team won and he was still shattering records, his final game he set the playoffs scoring record and broke 6 other records and had a 56 point 35 rebound 12 block triple double.
He averaged 33.5ppg against the Celtics in the Playoffs. Outplayed Bill Russell in several crucial games, in fact scored 16 points in the fourth quarter of one game to come back from an 11 point deficit. In the final game where he only scored 22 points he was praised for as you mentioned, playing a different role. And the Warriors only lost that game by a Sam Jones buzzer beater. The Warriors were likely that one buzzer beater from a title that season - they were a superior team than LA. Actually like in a prior game, Wilt made a run to keep them in the game. With only 50 seconds to go the Warriors were down by 5 in that 7th game. Wilt scored those 5 points, prior to Sam Jones buzzer beater. Wilt played magnificent those playoffs, he was praised by his opponents and coach.
So while you may stare at a stat sheet years later and raise an eyebrow, that kind of thing wasn't being done when he was out there playing and impacting those games in ways the stat sheets don't always reveal:
I love how he could extend his arm and sorta flip the ball down into the basket. Yeah, they'd have to change the rules if Wilt played today because it would take all 5 of the opposing players on a team to slow him down.
They changed the rules a number of times because Wilt was too dominant, including changing the size of the lane.
Yeah, I remember Chick Hearn alluding to that back in the day.
Rules changes in the NBA/college/international player have largely been about taking away advantages of big man -- Bob Kruland, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem.
In the NBA:
Mikan was the cause of the 3 second rule and widening the lane from 6 feet to 12 feet, and he had an impact on goaltending introducing the shot clock.
Wilt was the cause of the lane widening from 12 feet to 16 feet, more goaltending rules, not crossing the plane of the free throw line, and not being able to inbound the ball over the backboard.
I love how he could extend his arm and sorta flip the ball down into the basket. Yeah, they'd have to change the rules if Wilt played today because it would take all 5 of the opposing players on a team to slow him down.
They changed the rules a number of times because Wilt was too dominant, including changing the size of the lane.
Yeah, I remember Chick Hearn alluding to that back in the day.
Rules changes in the NBA/college/international player have largely been about taking away advantages of big man -- Bob Kruland, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem.
In the NBA:
Mikan was the cause of the 3 second rule and widening the lane from 6 feet to 12 feet, and he had an impact on goaltending introducing the shot clock.
Wilt was the cause of the lane widening from 12 feet to 16 feet, more goaltending rules, not crossing the plane of the free throw line, and not being able to inbound the ball over the backboard.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the 3 second rule was in existence long before Mikan? The 3 second rule is basically just the function of the key during live play. Mikan is responsible for the lane widening, but not the concept of the lane. No?
Mikan is responsible for goal tending in the NBA. Wilt and Russell in the NCAA. Wilt and Russell also responsible for the lane widening from 6 to 12 feet in the NCAA, and Wilt responsible for a few inbound rules (can't lob it over the backboard) and free throw rule where you had to release the ball before the free throw line so he couldn't dunk free throws. Kareem responsible for dunking being banned in the NCAA. These are what I recall off hand.
I love how he could extend his arm and sorta flip the ball down into the basket. Yeah, they'd have to change the rules if Wilt played today because it would take all 5 of the opposing players on a team to slow him down.
They changed the rules a number of times because Wilt was too dominant, including changing the size of the lane.
Yeah, I remember Chick Hearn alluding to that back in the day.
Rules changes in the NBA/college/international player have largely been about taking away advantages of big man -- Bob Kruland, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem.
In the NBA:
Mikan was the cause of the 3 second rule and widening the lane from 6 feet to 12 feet, and he had an impact on goaltending introducing the shot clock.
Wilt was the cause of the lane widening from 12 feet to 16 feet, more goaltending rules, not crossing the plane of the free throw line, and not being able to inbound the ball over the backboard.
Cumulative effect of the rule changes wasn't just to reduce big man advantage but to amplify advantages for the small man:
- enforcement of the "palming the ball on the dribble" violation is radically changed from 1975. It was a violation in Jerry and Wilt's time to use a crossover dribble.
- enforcement of the traveling violation is radically altered since Wilt as well; the move permitted today after the jump stop and after dribble termination was not allowed in Baylor and Robertson's day. This is why one never sees these tomahawk jams and skywalking before David Thompson's time.
- the hand-check of perimeter players is no longer permitted.
- the three point goal radically altered the game's ebb and flow, though it took coaches and players about a decade to really begin to integrate it into strategy (becoming the primary weapon it's become today.)
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