LakersGround.net :: View topic - OFFICIAL 2016 FREE AGENCY (PINCUS states 2017-18 salary cap falling to $102m; Lakers get Calderon, pg.2432; sign Deng 4 yr/$72M; Mozgov 4 yr/$64M; Tarik Black 2 yr/$12.85M)

OFFICIAL 2016 FREE AGENCY (PINCUS states 2017-18 salary cap falling to $102m; Lakers get Calderon, pg.2432; sign Deng 4 yr/$72M; Mozgov 4 yr/$64M; Tarik Black 2 yr/$12.85M)
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:59 pm Post subject:

Is the ringer.com like inquisitr? Or is it a legit site?

fansincemagic
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11076

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:07 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

LAkers 4 Life wrote:

So let's say around the trade deadline the Lakers have surprised the league and won more games than projected, but still not enough to make the playoffs.

If a team on the playoff bubble becomes desperate and is willing to part first rounders for Calderon or Jianlian, would you do it? Or would you rather have the Lakers give up even more assets to try to be more competitive the rest of the season?

The first scenario sending the message that the Lakers will play it safe and smart and continue to collect assets for the rebuild. The second scenario sending the message that the Lakers will be aggressive and take risks and are looking to compete now no matter the cost.

I would say adiós to Jose or zàijiàn to Yi. When fans debate the pro's and con's of tanking, or discuss Hinkie's "process", I think a common point missed is its not just about losing and getting some talent, then get better.....it is losing, and getting "enough" talent to build the foundation for a Championship, then get better. To Hinkie, and his supporters, it is pointless to begin to ascend too early and get stuck as a perennial 6th seed praying for a FA to save you. His deal with the fans was we will be bad for a little while, and it will suck.....but once we get through this, we will be very good for a long time. Within the confines of the new CBA, it is a logical theory. We all now know that he may have not made the best draft selections and injuries piled up....but if you consider if we could go back and make the optimal draft pick for Philly and there were no injuries....they would have a ton of young talent probably closing in on GSW within a couple years.

I am not seeking to lose or tank, but I also want enough talent on the roster to control our own destiny for a long time....and not hoping and praying every off season a FA will choose to save us.

Yeah, it's all about assets and either player would be no big loss as expiring deals. Also keep in mind Black and Williams could become a good pairing for a playoff team that wants another big and scorer for their run...both are on cheap multi yr deals too. Maybe you land a mid round 1st with an expiring contract if injuries settle in for the right team. Toronto has two 1sts, some young bigs that may not be where they want them to be and Lou won the 6th man award with them. Of the four mentioned, they're chips that won't affect the young core.

dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:11 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

Because winning 29 games means you're closer to succeeding and making progress than making 21 games.

Your wants are misplaced if you EVER utter the words "i'd rather this team win 21 games instead of 29.."

No. You stop caring about the freaking lottery and be happy if they won 29 games, and then be happy the next year when they win 40 games, and so on and so forth. When you stop depending on the "next" top 3 pick to be the magic player that's going to single handedly turn your franchise around then you can start moving forward as a franchise.

Otherwise you get used to and are afraid to leave depravity, cause "one more year".

We just simply disagree. I think 21 wins and a top 3 draft pick outweighs 29 wins in the medium and long term for the franchise. The NBA is an arms (talent) race, and the most likely place to gain that talent is the draft....or at least the most controllable place. I want to be better than Minnesota, Utah, Denver or any team that is currently accumulating, developing and preparing for the post GSW/CLE NBA.

Agreed. Especially when you realize the max caliber guys on the free agent market next summer aren't coming. Keep slow building & picking up assets through the draft
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."

Jim99187
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Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 22138

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:14 pm Post subject:

epak wrote:

Is the ringer.com like inquisitr? Or is it a legit site?

It's bill Simmons website, u be the judge

kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29353
Location: La La Land

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:29 pm Post subject:

epak wrote:

Is the ringer.com like inquisitr? Or is it a legit site?

It's Bill Simmons's media company he set up in LA and Ny after getting canned from ESPN. It's legit.
They have staffers who have reported on Sports, TV, Film, Music and Politics for years. Well connected writers.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”

dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player

Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:38 pm Post subject:

We really could have some attractive trading parts at the deadline Lou Williams Yi Jianlian Jose Calderon Tarik Black *All very cap friendly deals (especially Yi) If we could pick up a 1st from any combination of those guys, with 2 1st going out in future years, it would be a major win. _________________ "He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."

Jim99187
Franchise Player

Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 22138

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:06 am Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

We really could have some attractive trading parts at the deadline

Lou Williams
Yi Jianlian
Jose Calderon
Tarik Black
*All very cap friendly deals (especially Yi)

If we could pick up a 1st from any combination of those guys, with 2 1st going out in future years, it would be a major win.

Like we had J hill, bass & many others?

Four Decade Bandwagon
Star Player

Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8160

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:19 am Post subject:

I can see this discussion will rage on again all year. To tank or not to tank? Trade deadline salary dumps or not.? IMO the Lakers need to start winning. Half the roster has under two years experience. Develop it. Focus on moving up the rankings instead of lingering at the bottom hoping for the best. Also think it is time to start clearing some of the trade debt they have incurred. Every season of hoping for a lottery ball to fall the Lakers way is getting old. JMO

japanesebeef1
Star Player

Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 1473
Location: Colton, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:34 am Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:

I can see this discussion will rage on again all year.

To tank or not to tank?
Trade deadline salary dumps or not.?

IMO the Lakers need to start winning. Half the roster has under two years experience. Develop it. Focus on moving up the rankings instead of lingering at the bottom hoping for the best.

Also think it is time to start clearing some of the trade debt they have incurred. Every season of hoping for a lottery ball to fall the Lakers way is getting old.

JMO

Yup.

MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26389

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:42 am Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

Agreed. Especially when you realize the max caliber guys on the free agent market next summer aren't coming. Keep slow building & picking up assets through the draft

You don't think about next summer, you think about two summers from now and building a team they actually would be interested in.

You can't have the mentality of "oh we're bad this year.. better tank and get more assets in the bottom 3." and why? Cause you think they'll come the next season despite you being a losing team? That's a backwards way of thinking.

How about "Well we'll be a 31 win team this season so we aren't getting any big time free agents.. However because we were a 31 win team this year we're progressing and we might be a 42+ win team next year! And if we're on the forward progress and looking on the verge THEN maybe some free agents will sit and talk with us!!"

That's a better mentality to have. Because the "oh no free agents will come here cause we suck this year.. better keep sucking."

Yeah no. That's counter productive.

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

21 wins means you're further away from progressing, 29 wins means your young guys are progressing and the core is performing well and you're closer to it. That's hard to argue.

The problem in the way of thinking you're going with is you're essentially waiting for a top 3 pick to save your franchise and it doesn't work that way and is the wrong way to look at it.

Your mentality of "keep losing till a draft pick saves us" gets a team absolutely nowhere 99.9% of the time.

THE POINT OF GETTING A DRAFT PICK IS PROGRESSING THEM AND DEVELOPING THEM SO THAT THE CORE EVENTUALLY TURNS YOU INTO A WINNING TEAM WHEN SURROUNDED BY THE PROPER PIECES!!

You constantly wishing or hoping that this team under-performs DEFEATS the entire purpose of why you want a draft pick in the first place.

We've got 4 top 5 talent draft picks and 2 steals, 1 which would go in the top 15. That's enough.

Eventually you're going to have to stop being afraid of winning and talent progressing because that's the point.

Constantly wishing for failure is just a security blanket cause you want that net you assume a 'top 3 pick' is. When it's not a net, it's an addiction, and an addiction that makes you afraid of winning.

Cause it becomes "Well we either are a playoffs team or we HAVE to be the worst team for more assets!" That's the trap.

The reality is there isn't gonna be THAT quick a turnaround most of the time, it's likely going to take this core 2 years to become a playoff team and they aren't gonna jump from worst team in the league to playoff team in a years time UNLESS they progress.

So you're going to have to accept the years they win 29-35 games if you are going to have them progress to 42-45 wins the next season.

Yes you lose a top 3 draft pick but you gain a year closer to the playoffs and the team growing into something you want to contend. THAT is the goal. And always has been. But the addiction of 'losing' entices people that believe in it now to run away from or confuse it.

Last edited by MJST on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:55 am; edited 3 times in total

yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:50 am Post subject:

tibor Pleiss to Utah. Could 76ers be getting ready to unload Noel or Oak now? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals

yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:51 am Post subject:

japanesebeef1 wrote:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:

Yup.

The irony is that both sides may end up getting what they want.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals

Jim99187
Franchise Player

Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 22138

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:39 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

tibor Pleiss to Utah. Could 76ers be getting ready to unload Noel or Oak now?

The 2 2nd rounders attach to Noel/oak would have been more attractive

HumanVictoryCigar
Star Player

Joined: 28 Apr 2014
Posts: 7601

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:08 am Post subject:

The Hunt Brothers of the NBA are at it again only instead of silver, it's Centers... 5 Centers and counting in Philly...

LAkers 4 Life
Franchise Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 14629

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:23 am Post subject:

Jim99187 wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

tibor Pleiss to Utah. Could 76ers be getting ready to unload Noel or Oak now?

The 2 2nd rounders attach to Noel/oak would have been more attractive

Agree.

Utah GM Dennis Lindsey must be thinking "Ah, Tibor, how many times have you saved my butt?"

Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:42 am Post subject:

Jim99187 wrote:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

Like we had J hill, bass & many others?

Different contract structures. Hill was a team option on a one year deal and Bass had a player option. Very different compared to Black's nonguaranteed 2nd year, Calderon's expiring and Yi's really unique 1 year deal.

Jim99187
Franchise Player

Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 22138

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:03 am Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:

Jim99187 wrote:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

Like we had J hill, bass & many others?

not really, they are all the same. no matter what words you put around it

team option = non guarantee = expirer

venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:06 am Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

adkindo wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

Jim99187 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

vanexelent wrote:

Quote:

if the L.A. Lakers do not convey a 1st round pick to Philadelphia in 2017, then the L.A. Lakers will instead convey their 2017 2nd round pick and 2018 2nd round pick to Orlando [L.A. Lakers-Orlando, 8/10/2012]

So we need to tank again.

don't need to. we will be in bottom 3 anyways

Maybe, but they will do everything possible not to be. And if they are, keeping their draft pick isn't likely.

I am still hopeful, but if we are not a 40 win team (35-45 range), then the truth it is significantly advantageous for us to be a 20 win (17-23 range) one more year. One more top 3 pick, plus not having to give Orlando a 1st rounder could pay dividends for this team for a decade or two. It may be another decade or two until we are in position to draft a top 3 player. The last top 3 selection San Antonio had was Duncan.

This has to stop.

no problem.....as soon as you can explain to me how the benefits for the franchise to win 29 games and finish with the 4th or 5th worst record outweigh the benefits of winning 21 games and having the 1st or 2nd worst record.

If you don't know then explaining would be meaningless.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.

yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:07 am Post subject:

Since the Lakers had a team option on hill he had A virtual no trade veto power. Therefore it made it hard to trade him because we needed to get his approval. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals

venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:11 am Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

Agreed. Especially when you realize the max caliber guys on the free agent market next summer aren't coming. Keep slow building & picking up assets through the draft

Sure, and maybe ten years from now we might break .500.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.

dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:19 am Post subject:

MJST wrote:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

Agreed. Especially when you realize the max caliber guys on the free agent market next summer aren't coming. Keep slow building & picking up assets through the draft

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

I'm on the record for expecting about 27 wins. But yes I would hope to finish beneath other bad teams if we aren't in the play off picture. It comes down to me believing a top 3 asset either used in a trade or draft, would help us get back to the play offs quicker the next year. Basically allowing us to skip that 30 win stage
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."

Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:20 am Post subject:

Jim99187 wrote:

Hector the Pup wrote:

Jim99187 wrote:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

Like we had J hill, bass & many others?

not really, they are all the same. no matter what words you put around it

team option = non guarantee = expirer

Actually no. Different rules when it comes to trades.

For example, Hill being traded would have automatically kicked in his 2nd year option unless he waived it, and there was no way he was going to pass up $9 million.

dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player

Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:21 am Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

Agreed. Especially when you realize the max caliber guys on the free agent market next summer aren't coming. Keep slow building & picking up assets through the draft

Sure, and maybe ten years from now we might break .500.

2018.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."

venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:24 am Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

dcarter4kobe wrote:

adkindo wrote:

MJST wrote:

Agreed. Especially when you realize the max caliber guys on the free agent market next summer aren't coming. Keep slow building & picking up assets through the draft

Sure, and maybe ten years from now we might break .500.

2018.

But if we aren't in 2018 don't you want to tank and get another pick?
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.

Bard207
Star Player

Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:28 am Post subject:

HumanVictoryCigar wrote:

The Hunt Brothers of the NBA are at it again only instead of silver, it's Centers...

5 Centers and counting in Philly...

Maybe they did it for the draft picks that Utah included.

Derek Bodner

Quote:

The #sixers will receive both the most favorable and least favorable of Utah's 4 2017 second-round picks

One person on RealGM said that Pleiss has a partial guarantee of $500,000 for the 2017 - 2018 season.

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