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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | It's premised solely on the Lakers being confident in Whiteside. I don't think it's a home run at all. If they pass, then you're left with a much more modest crop of centers. |
Yinoma.... I always leave out the idea of bringing back Clarkson if the Lakers go after Derozan. There just won't be enough minutes.
What's your take on JC? I think he's a huge albatross in our cap plans if the team tries to resign him. |
Plenty of minutes when Clarkson can play 1-2 and DeRozan can play 2-3. The good thing for LA is they can take their time, give him the QO, if another team signs an offer sheet, great, because that's MLE money for two years. If they need to use their cap room this year, he can just take the QO and be RFA again next year, with an MLE cap hold. |
Sadly, JC will be left hanging a bit in terms of priority signings. He probably will be taken care of last.
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I share the same reticence that others have about Whiteside, but his $21M max quells those concerns a bit. He's definitely worth that under the new CBA.
The +/- issue that's been brought up is also pretty overblown. Miami is +0.2 points per 100 possessions with him off of the court. Considering that that's when they go to a more modern PF/C combo of Winslow & Bosh, that's not an issue, IMO.
They also play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league, so his stats are deflated a bit as a result of that as well. I do have my concerns about him, but you gotta lock him up if you can, IMO. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | But DRoz isn't just a household name. Ask a bunch of respected posters here who were "absolutely against" DRoz at the beginning of the year and now see what a different player he is.
Not sure how much you've watched him, but a bit of your assessment of him sounds outdated. Elite PnR player, generates tons of open looks for Lowry (a big reason why he's killing it points wise and 3 point wise). |
He's a player who's value is directly related to his offensive output. Not the type of guy we need IMO.
Feel free to disagree. I'm not here to convince anyone. But I'm more aligned with Dave's thinking here. I have a LOT of faith in this crop of young guys we have to put it together.
I want to the hand the keys over to DLO/JC/Randle in a system designed around them to generate the open looks we need. I want vets that fit into this, not ones we need to accommodate. Guys like Livingston, Batum, Barnes, Rush, Iguoudala, Bogut, Henson, Ariza, Whiteside etc. fit into that if you can snag them. Guys like Monroe, DeRozan, Love, etc do not. The only player I abandon this philosophy for is KD in the off chance he signed here. |
Popular opinion, only not of those who actually have to pay a $90 mil payroll. They can't wait, they need to add vets along with the young players. And they will this offseason, and DD is a good place to start. When Kobe is gone we will need a #1 scorer and he can be that. |
So they should make a rushed decision? We'll never go anywhere with that type of planning. I hope the Lakers think bigger than that. |
Well I never said that but I did say what I thought they would. What they won't do is wait for some youngsters to mature.
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KobeRe-Loaded
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | There are no good center options this summer. I wouldn't mind something like:
Noah (10m)/Biyombo (12m).
DRoz (25m)
I'd be interested in using some of the remaining on someone like Lance Thomas. |
Hell naw to Biyombo and especially hell no to Noah.
Noah is in his 30s now, injury prone, and he flat out sucks. He's a bench player for a reason and he's not even finishing this season. Biggest waste of 10 mill per ever. Wouldn't even give him an MLE. (bleep) Noah.
Biyombo no because undersized and zero offense, and he's a bench player. Ain't paying no bench player 12 mill per year. Pelicans made that mistake with Osik and look how that is paying off for them? (Hint, it's not)
Whiteside is the way to go. There's no other way. |
The goal for me is to have a cap holder for Westbrook. Noah would be that (and a cheap one).
Whiteside's red flags are abundant. Not sure the Lakers risk offering a max deal to a guy with so many red flags. |
You don't hold a cap for one player. We already have a very good future with the current backcourt as it is. 10 mill is not cheep. I mean for ChrIst sake, for the past month, we have been talking about trying to get rid of Young'son 5 mill contract and Lou Wills. Pay 10 mill per for Noah who does pretty much nothing anymore while being injury prone? Waste of money.
What red flags? There isn't a single red flag he has that would hurt the team so much so that would cause someone to sign 31 year old injury prone centers over him. Whiteside aint perfect but the fact of the matter is that he is age approved for this young core, he's solid offensively, very good shot blocker and rebounder. He is a total upgrade over what we had since Dwight left.
I would rather have and keep Tarik Black over Noah and Biyombo. And he is both younger and much cheaper than both of them would be. |
You need a Noah or Biyomobo because Black isn't a 35 mpg player. |
Neither are they. Especially Noah who can't even finish a season now let alone productive minutes.
Who says we give Black 35 minutes either? We will have other productive rotational players as well as others in free agency as well for half the price than overpaying older bench players. |
That's what I am saying. You have Black you can give 20-25 mpg to and you have Noah or Biyombo who you can give 20-25 mpg to.
Platoon at center.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | It's premised solely on the Lakers being confident in Whiteside. I don't think it's a home run at all. If they pass, then you're left with a much more modest crop of centers. |
Yinoma.... I always leave out the idea of bringing back Clarkson if the Lakers go after Derozan. There just won't be enough minutes.
What's your take on JC? I think he's a huge albatross in our cap plans if the team tries to resign him. |
The smart RFA play is to re-sign or match. If the salary becomes an issue down the road, you can trade him.
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Last edited by venturalakersfan on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Megaton
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You're not understanding. To save enough for WB in 2017, you have to punt at least 17m in cap space. |
Yeah, that's what Whiteside is for. That's what the draft is for.
Here are the keepers so far for next offseason:
Russell
Clarkson
Brown
Randle
Black
Nance
That's six players. And that doesn't even include other players we could potentially get if we trade Lou Will, Bass, etc for cheep young players.
When we get the 1st pick in lottery day, we have also have the 32nd pick. That's now 8 players. 4 more to go.
Whiteside makes it now and starts at center. Derozan is another option, even though I don't think it's needed, but I am not against such a move. That's 10. There is also Batum if not Derozen. And then you fill out the other 2 with cheep vets in the backcourt. There, roster filled.
Cheaper to spend on Whiteside and Derozan and cheep 2 vets then spending 22 mill per on crap bench players who will provide nothing for this team other than being complete waste of space like Hibbert this year and Nick Young, Lou Will, etc.
We have spent money time and time again on players who provide nothing, and are complete waste of cap spaces just for the sake of spending. No more of that. Use it on players that are worth it. |
What if the Lakers pass on Whiteside. What's your center rotation? (That's why I'm throwing this out). |
We find someone else and not spend double digit money for for 3 years or so. Like the 32nd pick in the draft we could use to draft a center with.
There is also the following I would rather have:
Mosgov I think we can get for cheeper.
Boban Marjanovic who I really want. He's on the spurs for now and he's a free agent next season. HUGE HUGE Center. 7'3 and 290 pounds and plays very well given the low minutes he's playing. Would love to get him. He also has a cult following from his country.
Nene for a very cheep contract. As a mentor to our young big man as well as filling in filler minutes. Nothing big and give him 1 year with maybe a team option for next year. |
Mozgov will want a long-term deal, starting easily at 15m.
Boban...eh. Doubt he's a long-term solution.
Nene, will want his money too. Doubt he's going cheap and mentor...not from him. |
Long term deal sure, 15 mill per I doubt.
Neither are Noah and Biyombo, but at least Boban would be both cheaper and better. Also I think he's underrated as hell. We made a mistake by passing up on another player from the Spurs Cory Joseph. I don't think we should pass this guy up either. Whether he is our long term center or not is not really the point with him.
How do we know that? He's not exactly high demand and he's at an age where he won't command much money at all. He ain't gonna start for any team anymore. I think it's more likely he gets an Elton Brand kind of role.
What exactly makes Noah and Biyombo more realistic than those 3 players I mentioned? Noah is possible sure but only because he is complete utter crap with not many teams willing to take him on for a big contract at all. And Biyombo however is more unrealistic because he is very undersized. We're not gonna go with a 6'9 PF and 6'9 Center lineup.
As far as long term centers, the only one that makes any sense at all is Whiteside. No way Lakers pass him up. THAT is unrealistic. Whether Whiteside accepts or not is another story but no way the Lakers don't offer him anything.
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Megaton
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | I share the same reticence that others have about Whiteside, but his $21M max quells those concerns a bit. He's definitely worth that under the new CBA.
The +/- issue that's been brought up is also pretty overblown. Miami is +0.2 points per 100 possessions with him off of the court. Considering that that's when they go to a more modern PF/C combo of Winslow & Bosh, that's not an issue, IMO.
They also play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league, so his stats are deflated a bit as a result of that as well. I do have my concerns about him, but you gotta lock him up if you can, IMO. |
That and Miami are also 26th in the league in passing with Dragic as their leading assist guy with 5.2. They aren't exactly a team that puts emphasis on ball movement either nor do they have the players that are pass first.
Lakers however have Russell which is huge for someone like Whiteside. We have Clarkson who is also a capable passer and Randle underrated at that aspect as well. With the right coach, the ball movement next year should go very smoothly.
We would also play at a much faster pace due to the age and athleticism of our players. Something else Whiteside would benefit from.
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | I share the same reticence that others have about Whiteside, but his $21M max quells those concerns a bit. He's definitely worth that under the new CBA.
The +/- issue that's been brought up is also pretty overblown. Miami is +0.2 points per 100 possessions with him off of the court. Considering that that's when they go to a more modern PF/C combo of Winslow & Bosh, that's not an issue, IMO.
They also play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league, so his stats are deflated a bit as a result of that as well. I do have my concerns about him, but you gotta lock him up if you can, IMO. |
That and Miami are also 26th in the league in passing with Dragic as their leading assist guy with 5.2. They aren't exactly a team that puts emphasis on ball movement either nor do they have the players that are pass first.
Lakers however have Russell which is huge for someone like Whiteside. We have Clarkson who is also a capable passer and Randle underrated at that aspect as well. With the right coach, the ball movement next year should go very smoothly.
We would also play at a much faster pace due to the age and athleticism of our players. Something else Whiteside would benefit from. |
& if it does not work out we can just go ahead and amnesty him with the new CBA |
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Megaton
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | I share the same reticence that others have about Whiteside, but his $21M max quells those concerns a bit. He's definitely worth that under the new CBA.
The +/- issue that's been brought up is also pretty overblown. Miami is +0.2 points per 100 possessions with him off of the court. Considering that that's when they go to a more modern PF/C combo of Winslow & Bosh, that's not an issue, IMO.
They also play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league, so his stats are deflated a bit as a result of that as well. I do have my concerns about him, but you gotta lock him up if you can, IMO. |
That and Miami are also 26th in the league in passing with Dragic as their leading assist guy with 5.2. They aren't exactly a team that puts emphasis on ball movement either nor do they have the players that are pass first.
Lakers however have Russell which is huge for someone like Whiteside. We have Clarkson who is also a capable passer and Randle underrated at that aspect as well. With the right coach, the ball movement next year should go very smoothly.
We would also play at a much faster pace due to the age and athleticism of our players. Something else Whiteside would benefit from. |
& if it does not work out we can just go ahead and amnesty him with the new CBA |
Now that is thinking ahead! 
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Amnesty with over 40m left on the contract? Doubt it.
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Marc Gasol out for the season. If Conley bolts this summer, will Memphis consider trading him? |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Amnesty with over 40m left on the contract? Doubt it. |
better that then wasting 22m on noah/biyombo |
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Deathstroke
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | Marc Gasol out for the season. If Conley bolts this summer, will Memphis consider trading him? |
Marc is damaged goods now. Fractured foot for a 30+ year old 7 footer is terrible news. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Amnesty with over 40m left on the contract? Doubt it. |
better that then wasting 22m on noah/biyombo |
Not really. Because you're only giving Noah a 1 year deal and biyombo a smaller contract. You go tell the owners that Whiteside has gone Bynum on you and you no want to amnesty him and 40m+ on his deal. 
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dood23
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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I was sour on Whiteside a few weeks ago but now I'm almost feeling like he should be #1 priority. Worst case is that we plug up a hole that we are sorely lacking with a talented young player and win more games to attract the next big FA.
Good thing is we have the capspace to offer 2 maxes at once, the question is whether the FO will actually go that route...
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Megaton
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| dood23 wrote: | I was sour on Whiteside a few weeks ago but now I'm almost feeling like he should be #1 priority. Worst case is that we plug up a hole that we are sorely lacking with a talented young player and win more games to attract the next big FA.
Good thing is we have the capspace to offer 2 maxes at once, the question is whether the FO will actually go that route... |
No doubt they go that route.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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It'll be good to see Whiteside in the playoffs. Would like to see how he handles the pressure.
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Megaton
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | It'll be good to see Whiteside in the playoffs. Would like to see how he handles the pressure. |
Experience as well.
I guess it also depends on how Spo runs him. |
True. But I want to see how he plays when a team game plans him.
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Outspoken
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | But DRoz isn't just a household name. Ask a bunch of respected posters here who were "absolutely against" DRoz at the beginning of the year and now see what a different player he is.
Not sure how much you've watched him, but a bit of your assessment of him sounds outdated. Elite PnR player, generates tons of open looks for Lowry (a big reason why he's killing it points wise and 3 point wise). |
He's a player who's value is directly related to his offensive output. Not the type of guy we need IMO.
Feel free to disagree. I'm not here to convince anyone. But I'm more aligned with Dave's thinking here. I have a LOT of faith in this crop of young guys we have to put it together.
I want to the hand the keys over to DLO/JC/Randle in a system designed around them to generate the open looks we need. I want vets that fit into this, not ones we need to accommodate. Guys like Livingston, Batum, Barnes, Rush, Iguoudala, Bogut, Henson, Ariza, Whiteside etc. fit into that if you can snag them. Guys like Monroe, DeRozan, Love, etc do not. The only player I abandon this philosophy for is KD in the off chance he signed here. |
Popular opinion, only not of those who actually have to pay a $90 mil payroll. They can't wait, they need to add vets along with the young players. And they will this offseason, and DD is a good place to start. When Kobe is gone we will need a #1 scorer and he can be that. |
So they should make a rushed decision? We'll never go anywhere with that type of planning. I hope the Lakers think bigger than that. |
I don't think it's rushed when we've been punting for 2 whole offseasons. This has been part of their patience approach. Otherwise they would have spent the max slot up with long-term players by now.
I think it's a middle ground that the Lakers will end up at. We will keep most (maybe 1 is traded) of our young group AND sign an all-star player like DRoz and fill the rest with solid role players.
I don't see it being one sided at all (i.e. only young players, only super stars, etc.). |
It's rushed to me because DRoz is a flawed player IMO. Agree to disagree |
I agree with you. I don't think the Lakers should go after Demar, especially not for the max. I think he's a good player, but not a game changer; he's above average, but not elite or really good at anything except, possibly jumping. We would be best with filling the holes that need filling like the sf and center spot.
to be honest, it would be best for Demar stay as a raptor, because I think outside of that situation and if he came to the lakers, he would be exposed for the lack of ability that he has. |
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Practice
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you're going to be disappointed if you expect the Lakers to find a player that isn't "flawed" or think that the only player who deserves a max is Durant. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Outspoken wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | But DRoz isn't just a household name. Ask a bunch of respected posters here who were "absolutely against" DRoz at the beginning of the year and now see what a different player he is.
Not sure how much you've watched him, but a bit of your assessment of him sounds outdated. Elite PnR player, generates tons of open looks for Lowry (a big reason why he's killing it points wise and 3 point wise). |
He's a player who's value is directly related to his offensive output. Not the type of guy we need IMO.
Feel free to disagree. I'm not here to convince anyone. But I'm more aligned with Dave's thinking here. I have a LOT of faith in this crop of young guys we have to put it together.
I want to the hand the keys over to DLO/JC/Randle in a system designed around them to generate the open looks we need. I want vets that fit into this, not ones we need to accommodate. Guys like Livingston, Batum, Barnes, Rush, Iguoudala, Bogut, Henson, Ariza, Whiteside etc. fit into that if you can snag them. Guys like Monroe, DeRozan, Love, etc do not. The only player I abandon this philosophy for is KD in the off chance he signed here. |
Popular opinion, only not of those who actually have to pay a $90 mil payroll. They can't wait, they need to add vets along with the young players. And they will this offseason, and DD is a good place to start. When Kobe is gone we will need a #1 scorer and he can be that. |
So they should make a rushed decision? We'll never go anywhere with that type of planning. I hope the Lakers think bigger than that. |
I don't think it's rushed when we've been punting for 2 whole offseasons. This has been part of their patience approach. Otherwise they would have spent the max slot up with long-term players by now.
I think it's a middle ground that the Lakers will end up at. We will keep most (maybe 1 is traded) of our young group AND sign an all-star player like DRoz and fill the rest with solid role players.
I don't see it being one sided at all (i.e. only young players, only super stars, etc.). |
It's rushed to me because DRoz is a flawed player IMO. Agree to disagree |
I agree with you. I don't think the Lakers should go after Demar, especially not for the max. I think he's a good player, but not a game changer; he's above average, but not elite or really good at anything except, possibly jumping. We would be best with filling the holes that need filling like the sf and center spot.
to be honest, it would be best for Demar stay as a raptor, because I think outside of that situation and if he came to the lakers, he would be exposed for the lack of ability that he has. |
Have you even watched more than a handful of his highlights this year? Because that analysis sounds like his scouting report from 2012. He's an elite pick and roll operator. Elite at getting the free throw and converting them. He draws in the defense a lot which has freed up Lowry a lot this year for open spot up 3s. He's a versatile ball handler who splits PG duties with Lowry.
Just a few things but I didn't notice any of these attributes in your criticism of his game. Again, spot on if it was 2012 or 2013.
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EZ-Ryder
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| So how many teams are going to offer Whiteside the max? I'd have to imagine every team that needs a center is going to offer him a blank check. |
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Robster8989
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | I share the same reticence that others have about Whiteside, but his $21M max quells those concerns a bit. He's definitely worth that under the new CBA.
The +/- issue that's been brought up is also pretty overblown. Miami is +0.2 points per 100 possessions with him off of the court. Considering that that's when they go to a more modern PF/C combo of Winslow & Bosh, that's not an issue, IMO.
They also play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league, so his stats are deflated a bit as a result of that as well. I do have my concerns about him, but you gotta lock him up if you can, IMO. |
I agree GT.
I am sure the front office will do their due diligence on Whiteside.
I think a good selling point to him is that we will (hopefully) play more up tempo. Also bring in a few legends to work with him on his post game.
I think we have a good chance on him, and frankly, there is not much else out there, though Biyombo has grown on me, and I like the Noah idea as a placeholder for cap space as Yinoma has suggested (or Bogut in a trade should the W's go after KD).
One thing I would say is don't discount the possibility of a trade. I think it was Mike that suggested the possibility of trading down should we land #3, possible to Denver for multiple picks and getting say Poeltl and Luwawu, 2 good role players.
Also, should we keep the pick and end up with Simmons, and if we are really high on him and feel his NBA position is the 4, we'd have a bit of a logjam at the 4. A lot of ifs here, but the possibility would exist to trade a player, perhaps Randle, for someone like WCS. The way Randle is playing lately, I would be reluctant, but if we really felt Simmons was a future star PF, and we had Nance as well, trading for a cost controlled 5 like WCS may make some sense. Sign a vet like Noah to go along with WCS, Simmons and Nance, and we'd have a talented, athletic, long group there, and all very cost controlled, allowing us to focus our FA dollars elsewhere.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Amnesty with over 40m left on the contract? Doubt it. |
better that then wasting 22m on noah/biyombo |
Not really. Because you're only giving Noah a 1 year deal and biyombo a smaller contract. You go tell the owners that Whiteside has gone Bynum on you and you no want to amnesty him and 40m+ on his deal. |
And will it be an amnesty that counts against the lux tax or doesn't? We have had both.
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