Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67718 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:35 pm Post subject:
Been a Laker fan since 1960. Have not been so disappointed in the FO or a player in some time.
FO because of their inability to improve the team. When they didn't take Okafor with the #2 pick I almost cried.
Kobe is more and more reminding me of Bret Farve. I love you man but when it's ova it's ova.
If he were willing to take a back seat, play for the team instead of himself, I'd be more appreciative.
He's done as much or more for the organization than any Laker past. I'm all for the retirement tour.
Kobe's not going to quit. I don't think he has a life other than basketball.
My beloved Lakers are in big doo-doo. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 46878 Location: Coming soon and striking at your borders.
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject:
I 've been preparing for Kobe's retirement ever since the achilles injury. Him leaving will be yet another indicator that a certain phase of my life is over. _________________ *sighs*
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Your eyes and memory deceive you.
Kobe had his highest AST% of all but the last two years in 2013. It was his 3rd most efficient shooting season. His 5th highest season in VORP. His USG rate was bascially dead even with his career rate. It can be argued pretty easily that 2012-2013 was one of Kobe's Top 5 seasons.
I can respect most opinions, but trying to put down Kobe's 2013 season is downright asinine, imho.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Voices wrote:
24 wrote:
I'm approaching this a lot like I did with our beloved 14 year old Lab Rottweiler over her last few years. Yes, you know the end is near, and yes, she couldn't do the same things in the same way, but we treasured the memories of the younger years and enjoyed her last few years at whatever level she had.
I really have enjoyed the Lakers greats that I have been privileged to watch. But my dogs from pit bulls, golden retrievers and now I Chi wa wa's hold my heart.
The Lakers of the past have been awesome, hopefully the future will give Lakers fans what we deserve more championships. I was at the Forum when we beat the Celtics, it was incredible celebrating with Lakers fans on the forum floor. We are going to need another Kobe, Magic or West to accomplish that.
Dogs and Lakers, two things that have made my life better.
Personally I am a cat man, but I agree with the sentiment. I have enjoyed enough success with the Lakers that I am actually looking forward to the next 3-4 seasons and the exciting anticipation of watching this team grow.
3 to 4 seasons to rebuild is appropriate. As you know I am not a Jim Buss fan, the reality is rebuilding from the ground up takes time. I am willing to give Jim and Mitch that time, butt our first round pick needs to pan out. I happen to like our pick, I see pure pg skills that very few players have, they were obvious and rare. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
I've been ready to move on from the old Kobe for several years now.
Well that's dumb, because 2013 kobe was on another world
Hmm. I actually thought it was his worst season as the old Kobe. In fact, it was the first time where I felt like ok, the decline is finally here.
If I could have any Kobe from 2003-2013, the one I'd want least is the 2012-2013 Kobe.
At any rate, the guy hasn't been "Kobe" in about 3 seasons. Like I said, I will be ready either for a new Kobe (an efficient and awesome leader Kobe in a reduced role) or no Kobe at all. Old Kobe has left us.
I cannot believe this. 2013 kobe was ridiculous. After the all star break Kobe could score on literally any play. I have never seen anyone play as unstoppable as kobe did during that streak.
There were plays where he went to the basket and was surrounded on all sides by arms and hands with no space at all and somehow everytime he still found a way to score. Game after game where the games were too close for comfort (but we were trying so hard to get into the playoffs) Kobe would have the ball as the game was winding down and the lakers begging for some points and Kobe would go to the hoop and just put the ball in. I remember vividly how on one play Josh Smith was just shaking his head in awe. There were so many games like that in 2013
And it wasn't just scoring. You had him dropping consecutive triple doubles, getting double digit assists in multiple games. Defensively, that was when Brandon Jennings said he's never faced tougher defense than where Kobe guarded him.
Maybe you just don't remember 2013. Because that Kobe was not human, and one of the best Kobe's of his career
Lol anyone who doesn't appreciate what Kobe did in 2013 has no idea what greatness is. End of story _________________ "Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Your eyes and memory deceive you.
Kobe had his highest AST% of all but the last two years in 2013. It was his 3rd most efficient shooting season. His 5th highest season in VORP. His USG rate was bascially dead even with his career rate. It can be argued pretty easily that 2012-2013 was one of Kobe's Top 5 seasons.
Well, you're just cherry picking stats at this point.
Kobe's top 5 seasons for me will be the ones that ended with a ring on his hand. Pretty sure he'd agree to that as well.
Fwiw, I'm not saying nor have I said it was a poor season. Just the first time I felt the inevitable decline had finally come.
I'm approaching this a lot like I did with our beloved 14 year old Lab Rottweiler over her last few years. Yes, you know the end is near, and yes, she couldn't do the same things in the same way, but we treasured the memories of the younger years and enjoyed her last few years at whatever level she had.
I really have enjoyed the Lakers greats that I have been privileged to watch. But my dogs from pit bulls, golden retrievers and now I Chi wa wa's hold my heart.
The Lakers of the past have been awesome, hopefully the future will give Lakers fans what we deserve more championships. I was at the Forum when we beat the Celtics, it was incredible celebrating with Lakers fans on the forum floor. We are going to need another Kobe, Magic or West to accomplish that.
Dogs and Lakers, two things that have made my life better.
Personally I am a cat man, but I agree with the sentiment. I have enjoyed enough success with the Lakers that I am actually looking forward to the next 3-4 seasons and the exciting anticipation of watching this team grow.
3 to 4 seasons to rebuild is appropriate. As you know I am not a Jim Buss fan, the reality is rebuilding from the ground up takes time. I am willing to give Jim and Mitch that time, butt our first round pick needs to pan out. I happen to like our pick, I see pure pg skills that very few players have, they were obvious and rare.
I don't think you're being anal about this at all.
I'm approaching this a lot like I did with our beloved 14 year old Lab Rottweiler over her last few years. Yes, you know the end is near, and yes, she couldn't do the same things in the same way, but we treasured the memories of the younger years and enjoyed her last few years at whatever level she had.
I really have enjoyed the Lakers greats that I have been privileged to watch. But my dogs from pit bulls, golden retrievers and now I Chi wa wa's hold my heart.
The Lakers of the past have been awesome, hopefully the future will give Lakers fans what we deserve more championships. I was at the Forum when we beat the Celtics, it was incredible celebrating with Lakers fans on the forum floor. We are going to need another Kobe, Magic or West to accomplish that.
Dogs and Lakers, two things that have made my life better.
Personally I am a cat man, but I agree with the sentiment. I have enjoyed enough success with the Lakers that I am actually looking forward to the next 3-4 seasons and the exciting anticipation of watching this team grow.
3 to 4 seasons to rebuild is appropriate. As you know I am not a Jim Buss fan, the reality is rebuilding from the ground up takes time. I am willing to give Jim and Mitch that time, butt our first round pick needs to pan out. I happen to like our pick, I see pure pg skills that very few players have, they were obvious and rare.
For me, if DLO/Clarkson/Randle pan out to be our #2-4 options, I'm happy since we will be going after our #1 options via free agency (KD, Westbrook, PGeorge). _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Your eyes and memory deceive you.
Kobe had his highest AST% of all but the last two years in 2013. It was his 3rd most efficient shooting season. His 5th highest season in VORP. His USG rate was bascially dead even with his career rate. It can be argued pretty easily that 2012-2013 was one of Kobe's Top 5 seasons.
Well, you're just cherry picking stats at this point.
Kobe's top 5 seasons for me will be the ones that ended with a ring on his hand. Pretty sure he'd agree to that as well.
Fwiw, I'm not saying nor have I said it was a poor season. Just the first time I felt the inevitable decline had finally come.
I would probably say the 11 and 12 seasons.. 2013? No way. He was playing on a extremely high level since the first preseason game.
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Your eyes and memory deceive you.
Kobe had his highest AST% of all but the last two years in 2013. It was his 3rd most efficient shooting season. His 5th highest season in VORP. His USG rate was bascially dead even with his career rate. It can be argued pretty easily that 2012-2013 was one of Kobe's Top 5 seasons.
Well, you're just cherry picking stats at this point.
Kobe's top 5 seasons for me will be the ones that ended with a ring on his hand. Pretty sure he'd agree to that as well.
Fwiw, I'm not saying nor have I said it was a poor season. Just the first time I felt the inevitable decline had finally come.
I would probably say the 11 and 12 seasons.. 2013? No way. He was playing on a extremely high level since the first preseason game.
High level relative to who? Other players? Certainly.
Relative to Kobe Bryant's prime? Nahhh.
If you're saying the best Kobe Bryant can do is win 45 games with Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, Antawn Jamison, Metta World Peace -- then that speaks volumes.
I contend he was much better than 2012-2013 in his prime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
That game you are referring to was an aberration that season, yes he did shoot 41 shots, but he only averaged 20.4 fga that year, which is tied at 9th for his most fga in a season. He shot 25+ shots in 15 games, shot less than 20 shots in 34 games and also averaged the second most assists per game in his career while also shooting 51% on 2p%, which was the highest of his career. The fit and style of play might not have been ideal, but kobe wasn't being an inefficient chucker that season and was hardly the reason they underachieved.
The defense was like 20th in the league for the first half of the season, Duhon, Blake and Morris started a combined 39 games because of injuries, Nash couldn't run pg as much when he returned because he struggled with ball pressure and traps, Pau shot the worst percentage of his career from the field that season and was in and out of the lineup, Dwight was coming off injury and didn't round into form until around around the all-star break, which happened to coincide with that great second half run they went on, when everybody was relatively healthy in the second half of the season they went 28-12.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
That game you are referring to was an aberration that season, yes he did shoot 41 shots, but he only averaged 20.4 fga that year, which is tied at 9th for his most fga in a season. He shot 25+ shots in 15 games, shot less than 20 shots in 34 games and also averaged the second most assists per game in his career while also shooting 51% on 2p%, which was the highest of his career. The fit and style of play might not have been ideal, but kobe wasn't being an inefficient chucker that season and was hardly the reason they underachieved.
The defense was like 20th in the league for the first half of the season, Duhon, Blake and Morris started a combined 39 games because of injuries, Nash couldn't run pg as much when he returned because he struggled with ball pressure and traps, Pau shot the worst percentage of his career from the field that season and was in and out of the lineup, Dwight was coming off injury and didn't round into form until around around the all-star break, which happened to coincide with that great second half run they went on, when everybody was relatively healthy in the second half of the season they went 28-12.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
That game you are referring to was an aberration that season, yes he did shoot 41 shots, but he only averaged 20.4 fga that year, which is tied at 9th for his most fga in a season. He shot 25+ shots in 15 games, shot less than 20 shots in 34 games and also averaged the second most assists per game in his career while also shooting 51% on 2p%, which was the highest of his career. The fit and style of play might not have been ideal, but kobe wasn't being an inefficient chucker that season and was hardly the reason they underachieved.
The defense was like 20th in the league for the first half of the season, Duhon, Blake and Morris started a combined 39 games because of injuries, Nash couldn't run pg as much when he returned because he struggled with ball pressure and traps, Pau shot the worst percentage of his career from the field that season and was in and out of the lineup, Dwight was coming off injury and didn't round into form until around around the all-star break, which happened to coincide with that great second half run they went on, when everybody was relatively healthy in the second half of the season they went 28-12.
Excellent post as usual anph
For me, the difference between Kobe in his prime, vs 2012-2013, is that IMO, Kobe in his prime could have better carried the team in the early going while Dwight was rounding in to form. You can't tell me that Kobe Bryant at his absolute best with a coming-off-injury Dwight can't do much better than 17-25, but the same Kobe with a rounded-in-to-form Dwight is a 25-11 team (Kobe didn't play in 4 games after the break). That would make Dwight the reason for the turn around, not Kobe.
You can't possibly believe his impact, at his best, is that minimal.
I think Kobe Bryant in his prime would have been better equipped to put that pre-AS team on his back to better than .500 to lead them to a 50+ win season. You guys don't think so?
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 19866 Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:36 am Post subject:
theboiijames wrote:
anpherknee wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Your eyes and memory deceive you.
Kobe had his highest AST% of all but the last two years in 2013. It was his 3rd most efficient shooting season. His 5th highest season in VORP. His USG rate was bascially dead even with his career rate. It can be argued pretty easily that 2012-2013 was one of Kobe's Top 5 seasons.
Well, you're just cherry picking stats at this point.
Kobe's top 5 seasons for me will be the ones that ended with a ring on his hand. Pretty sure he'd agree to that as well.
Fwiw, I'm not saying nor have I said it was a poor season. Just the first time I felt the inevitable decline had finally come.
No. You were the one talking about him playing 'hero ball' and 'ball hogging,' so I specifically chose statistics which disprove your premise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
That game you are referring to was an aberration that season, yes he did shoot 41 shots, but he only averaged 20.4 fga that year, which is tied at 9th for his most fga in a season. He shot 25+ shots in 15 games, shot less than 20 shots in 34 games and also averaged the second most assists per game in his career while also shooting 51% on 2p%, which was the highest of his career. The fit and style of play might not have been ideal, but kobe wasn't being an inefficient chucker that season and was hardly the reason they underachieved.
The defense was like 20th in the league for the first half of the season, Duhon, Blake and Morris started a combined 39 games because of injuries, Nash couldn't run pg as much when he returned because he struggled with ball pressure and traps, Pau shot the worst percentage of his career from the field that season and was in and out of the lineup, Dwight was coming off injury and didn't round into form until around around the all-star break, which happened to coincide with that great second half run they went on, when everybody was relatively healthy in the second half of the season they went 28-12.
Excellent post as usual anph
For me, the difference between Kobe in his prime, vs 2012-2013, is that IMO, Kobe in his prime could have better carried the team in the early going while Dwight was rounding in to form. You can't tell me that Kobe Bryant at his absolute best with a coming-off-injury Dwight can't do much better than 17-25, but the same Kobe with a rounded-in-to-form Dwight is a 25-11 team (Kobe didn't play in 4 games after the break). That would make Dwight the reason for the turn around, not Kobe.
You can't possibly believe his impact, at his best, is that minimal.
I think Kobe Bryant in his prime would have been better equipped to put that pre-AS team on his back to better than .500 to lead them to a 50+ win season. You guys don't think so?
Maybe he would have, I never said he didn't slow down physically and was better than prime kobe, I'm just saying that it was one of my favorite seasons of his, if not my favorite, purely from a standpoint of watching one man play basketball. Him being 34 and obviously losing a step, while still being better than pretty much everyone else in the league was a huge testament to his skill and he needed to use every single one he had to be effective, and it was a joy to watch him do it.
He slowed down physically, but was statistically very close prime kobe numbers. People are saying that him slowing down is the reason we underachieved and pointing to how mediocre our record was even tho we had all this talent, and it must have been because kobe couldn't make others better. 34 year old kobe can only take duhon, earl clark & darius morris starting nearly half the games so far while also sharing a great deal of minutes with old metta/jamison who were pretty much done at that point. But when the talent was there, the lakers were excellent, despite old man kobe losing a step. Was he less able to will us to wins consistently? Sure. Were we losing games because of how he was playing? No.
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Your eyes and memory deceive you.
Kobe had his highest AST% of all but the last two years in 2013. It was his 3rd most efficient shooting season. His 5th highest season in VORP. His USG rate was bascially dead even with his career rate. It can be argued pretty easily that 2012-2013 was one of Kobe's Top 5 seasons.
Well, you're just cherry picking stats at this point.
Kobe's top 5 seasons for me will be the ones that ended with a ring on his hand. Pretty sure he'd agree to that as well.
Fwiw, I'm not saying nor have I said it was a poor season. Just the first time I felt the inevitable decline had finally come.
No. You were the one talking about him playing 'hero ball' and 'ball hogging,' so I specifically chose statistics which disprove your premise.
Why are you quoting terms I never used in this thread?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
That game you are referring to was an aberration that season, yes he did shoot 41 shots, but he only averaged 20.4 fga that year, which is tied at 9th for his most fga in a season. He shot 25+ shots in 15 games, shot less than 20 shots in 34 games and also averaged the second most assists per game in his career while also shooting 51% on 2p%, which was the highest of his career. The fit and style of play might not have been ideal, but kobe wasn't being an inefficient chucker that season and was hardly the reason they underachieved.
The defense was like 20th in the league for the first half of the season, Duhon, Blake and Morris started a combined 39 games because of injuries, Nash couldn't run pg as much when he returned because he struggled with ball pressure and traps, Pau shot the worst percentage of his career from the field that season and was in and out of the lineup, Dwight was coming off injury and didn't round into form until around around the all-star break, which happened to coincide with that great second half run they went on, when everybody was relatively healthy in the second half of the season they went 28-12.
Excellent post as usual anph
For me, the difference between Kobe in his prime, vs 2012-2013, is that IMO, Kobe in his prime could have better carried the team in the early going while Dwight was rounding in to form. You can't tell me that Kobe Bryant at his absolute best with a coming-off-injury Dwight can't do much better than 17-25, but the same Kobe with a rounded-in-to-form Dwight is a 25-11 team (Kobe didn't play in 4 games after the break). That would make Dwight the reason for the turn around, not Kobe.
You can't possibly believe his impact, at his best, is that minimal.
I think Kobe Bryant in his prime would have been better equipped to put that pre-AS team on his back to better than .500 to lead them to a 50+ win season. You guys don't think so?
Maybe he would have, I never said he didn't slow down physically and was better than prime kobe, I'm just saying that it was one of my favorite seasons of his, if not my favorite, purely from a standpoint of watching one man play basketball. Him being 34 and obviously losing a step, while still being better than pretty much everyone else in the league was a huge testament to his skill and he needed to use every single one he had to be effective, and it was a joy to watch him do it.
He slowed down physically, but was statistically very close prime kobe numbers. People are saying that him slowing down is the reason we underachieved and pointing to how mediocre our record was even tho we had all this talent, and it must have been because kobe couldn't make others better. 34 year old kobe can only take duhon, earl clark & darius morris starting nearly half the games so far while also sharing a great deal of minutes with old metta/jamison who were pretty much done at that point. But when the talent was there, the lakers were excellent, despite old man kobe losing a step. Was he less able to will us to wins consistently? Sure. Were we losing games because of how he was playing? No.
All I said was that was the first season where I truly felt he was on the decline and you're saying the same thing.
You're making the leap that "people are saying that him slowing down is the reason we underachieved". No one said that, and certainly not me.
I believe we would have underachieved with Kobe in his prime -- but my point is that we would have underachieved less when he wasn't on the decline.
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
I loved Kobe that year. He carried that dysfunctional squad into the playoffs. It might not have been his most efficient year, but that was pretty amazing.
It was the first season I felt annoyed at him.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team, then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
If you could have the Kobe of any season from 2003-2013, wouldn't 2012-2013 be one of the least likely seasons that you'd pick?
Depends on what angle you are taking. That season, when expectations were sky high, the team was vastly underperforming and Kobe took that squad to the playoffs with a 28-12 (or was it 28-14) end of season. Of course the Achilles injury has made this season mythical, but I still appreciated what he did that year.
Or it was just a matter of the team figuring out how to play together. His numbers were big time, no doubt. But I just didn't like how he or we got there. One thing I think Kobe has always had unfairly held against is that he doesn't make players around him better. In most seasons, there has always been a player who was able to elevate their game because of Kobe.
That year, that wasn't possible because from my seat, there was too much hero ball going on. It's not a coincedence that that was the first season I had ever felt like "ehhh, I don't like what I'm seeing" and the numbers tell you he had an atypically high percentage of unassisted made field goals. The last time he took that many unassisted shots was 2004-2005 when he first learned how to play as "the man".
In any event, my hope is he accepts a backup role going forward as that would be a great veteran hand to have around for the youngsters.
Again, your memory fails you.
And "ball hogging"?
Or did you lie on that one?
Hmmm. Seems my memory failed me there. It's OK man...it happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU (game before the achilles injury)
This might have been my favorite season watching kobe ever, the team did underachieve somewhat, but the versions of pau, dwight, and nash were all lesser versions than what we expected. Pau and nash missed half the season and dwight wasn't healthy until around the allstar break, and we were using 3rd string pgs for a quarter of the season almost because steve blake missed half the season as well. When everybody got somewhat healthy we went on a run and had like the 4th best record in the league after the break until kobe's body gave out, I personally think he was remarkable that season, despite expectations of what our record should have been
Kobe took 41 shots, and scored 34 points and only had 5 assists, with nash, Pau, and Dwight all relatively healthy. We won in overtime, but im with ringfinger here, I specifically remember Kobe chucking all night being the reason the Lakers didn't blow them out by 20. this wasn't a good year for Kobe. his style of play didn't suit a team that talented.
That game you are referring to was an aberration that season, yes he did shoot 41 shots, but he only averaged 20.4 fga that year, which is tied at 9th for his most fga in a season. He shot 25+ shots in 15 games, shot less than 20 shots in 34 games and also averaged the second most assists per game in his career while also shooting 51% on 2p%, which was the highest of his career. The fit and style of play might not have been ideal, but kobe wasn't being an inefficient chucker that season and was hardly the reason they underachieved.
The defense was like 20th in the league for the first half of the season, Duhon, Blake and Morris started a combined 39 games because of injuries, Nash couldn't run pg as much when he returned because he struggled with ball pressure and traps, Pau shot the worst percentage of his career from the field that season and was in and out of the lineup, Dwight was coming off injury and didn't round into form until around around the all-star break, which happened to coincide with that great second half run they went on, when everybody was relatively healthy in the second half of the season they went 28-12.
Excellent post as usual anph
For me, the difference between Kobe in his prime, vs 2012-2013, is that IMO, Kobe in his prime could have better carried the team in the early going while Dwight was rounding in to form. You can't tell me that Kobe Bryant at his absolute best with a coming-off-injury Dwight can't do much better than 17-25, but the same Kobe with a rounded-in-to-form Dwight is a 25-11 team (Kobe didn't play in 4 games after the break). That would make Dwight the reason for the turn around, not Kobe.
You can't possibly believe his impact, at his best, is that minimal.
I think Kobe Bryant in his prime would have been better equipped to put that pre-AS team on his back to better than .500 to lead them to a 50+ win season. You guys don't think so?
Maybe he would have, I never said he didn't slow down physically and was better than prime kobe, I'm just saying that it was one of my favorite seasons of his, if not my favorite, purely from a standpoint of watching one man play basketball. Him being 34 and obviously losing a step, while still being better than pretty much everyone else in the league was a huge testament to his skill and he needed to use every single one he had to be effective, and it was a joy to watch him do it.
He slowed down physically, but was statistically very close prime kobe numbers. People are saying that him slowing down is the reason we underachieved and pointing to how mediocre our record was even tho we had all this talent, and it must have been because kobe couldn't make others better. 34 year old kobe can only take duhon, earl clark & darius morris starting nearly half the games so far while also sharing a great deal of minutes with old metta/jamison who were pretty much done at that point. But when the talent was there, the lakers were excellent, despite old man kobe losing a step. Was he less able to will us to wins consistently? Sure. Were we losing games because of how he was playing? No.
All I said was that was the first season where I truly felt he was on the decline and you're saying the same thing.
You're making the leap that "people are saying that him slowing down is the reason we underachieved". No one said that, and certainly not me.
I believe we would have underachieved with Kobe in his prime -- but my point is that we would have underachieved less when he wasn't on the decline.
My initial post was simply about how much I enjoyed the season from kobe despite everything that happened. Then the previous poster made the point about kobe shooting 41 shots in a game nearly preventing us from winning a game we should have won by 20, as proof that kobe didn't have a good season, using team success to justify the point. Did he specifically say that kobe was the reason we underachieved, no, but the implication was there for anyone to see, so it wasn't a really a leap to infer that. I mentioned him slowing down because you compared him to prime kobe after that, you didn't specifically say he slowed down, but suggesting that prime kobe would have had better results indicates you think he slowed down, because I doubt his fundamental skills diminished and thats instead what made him less effective. But if you wanna make it about what you specifically did or did not say, what does this post from you mean?
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, it was a good individual year. But if he gets credit for figuring out how to win with this team,]then he gets the blame for leading what should have been a contender, to 7 games below .500
He gets blame for starting 7 games under .500 with what should have been a contender, even tho the team that was on the floor at the time didn't have all of the players that should have made it a contender in the first place? Why is there blame there? And why does it have to be that he "figured out" how to win with this team when they started winning? Could it have just been that players were finally healthy and available at that point, leading to more wins, and that they likely would have gotten more total wins had everyone been healthy for the full season? It simply boiled down to when he had the horses we were really good and when he didn't we were really bad, he's not getting extra credit points for winning with that roster from me, but he's also not getting whatever blame you were talking about for starting 7 games under .500 with a roster that wasn't exactly the contender he was supposed to be leading.
So, to make sure I understand everything you said correctly, kobe was on the decline, but despite the fact that the contending roster wasn't together throughout half the season, he gets blame for the slow start, and when the team starts winning at a high rate, it was only because he decided to "figure out" how to play with people who weren't consistently there in the first place, so he shouldn't get any credit for that (which I wasn't really giving him anyway). I dont know man, but according to those statments it sounds like if kobe wasn't on the decline we would have achieved more right? But since he was, we were worse than we should have been, because prime kobe would have carried the sorry 1st half team and we would have ended up with more wins in the end right? How is that signifcantly different than what I said besides the specific words used?
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