So, to make sure I understand everything you said correctly, kobe was on the decline, but despite the fact that the contending roster wasn't together throughout half the season, he gets blame for the slow start, and when the team starts winning at a high rate, it was only because he decided to "figure out" how to play with people who weren't consistently there in the first place, so he shouldn't get any credit for that (which I wasn't really giving him anyway). I dont know man, but according to those statments it sounds like if kobe wasn't on the decline we would have achieved more right? But since he was, we were worse than we should have been, because prime kobe would have carried the sorry 1st half team and we would have ended up with more wins in the end right? How is that signifcantly different than what I said besides the specific words used?
It's not that complicated man. I believe if Kobe wasn't on the decline, yes, we would have achieved more. After all, Kobe had already done more, with less.
But that's a far cry from saying we underachieved because of Kobe's decline. We underachieved for a number of reasons. One of them was Howard's health. The other was Gasol's mental state. Another was Brown/MDA being awful as coaches. And another reason was what I observed as a different Kobe than what I had seen in his prime.
So you're trying to say that I'm saying we underachieved because of Kobe's decline to make it seem like I'm making it out to be worse than what I'm actually saying which is that we underachieved AND Kobe declined.
In either case, what is your answer to the question that in Kobe's prime, he would have, on his own, carried that first half team to a record better than 17-25? I say he would have -- do you say he would not have?
After the 11 and 12 seasons i thought he was done.. (anyone remember this song? )But in 20013, no matter how the team played, individually he was at his best, especially after the ASB, he went nuts but with smarter decisions than ever. Even kobe himself said that that was some of his best basketball he ever played and i can only agree.
The amnesty game was another one of those crazy games:
Or his last seconds top of the key jumper vs barnes with his shirt in his mouth.
So, to make sure I understand everything you said correctly, kobe was on the decline, but despite the fact that the contending roster wasn't together throughout half the season, he gets blame for the slow start, and when the team starts winning at a high rate, it was only because he decided to "figure out" how to play with people who weren't consistently there in the first place, so he shouldn't get any credit for that (which I wasn't really giving him anyway). I dont know man, but according to those statments it sounds like if kobe wasn't on the decline we would have achieved more right? But since he was, we were worse than we should have been, because prime kobe would have carried the sorry 1st half team and we would have ended up with more wins in the end right? How is that signifcantly different than what I said besides the specific words used?
It's not that complicated man. I believe if Kobe wasn't on the decline, yes, we would have achieved more. After all, Kobe had already done more, with less.
But that's a far cry from saying we underachieved because of Kobe's decline. We underachieved for a number of reasons. One of them was Howard's health. The other was Gasol's mental state. Another was Brown/MDA being awful as coaches. And another reason was what I observed as a different Kobe than what I had seen in his prime.
So you're trying to say that I'm saying we underachieved because of Kobe's decline to make it seem like I'm making it out to be worse than what I'm actually saying which is that we underachieved AND Kobe declined.
In either case, what is your answer to the question that in Kobe's prime, he would have, on his own, carried that first half team to a record better than 17-25? I say he would have -- do you say he would not have?
I honestly don't know, but I would assume that he would have, but probably not by much, maybe 2-3 wins if any. But my point all along has been that I personally enjoyed that season and it was one of my favorites given how well he played despite his age and admitted physical decline, along with the team dysfunction. The initial response was specifically the point that you made on pg 1 that he would have done better with pau, nash and howard if he was in his prime (somewhere along there you switched that point to how he would have had us playing better before the all star break if he was prime kobe) and then after the other poster responded with the 41 shot example, and that's who I was initially responding to about putting blame on kobe. Your point about prime vs 2012 kobe got mixed into that. The last post where I quoted you and asked you all of those questions was simply because you were trying to get all specifical
All I was saying is that those points aren't a major factor to me in judging how he performed that season, because those players weren't consistently there, and kobe may or may not have been in his prime still, because the numbers were consistent with prime kobe numbers, on some of his best efficiency in his career. We didn't win many games, but its hard to know if prime kobe would have done any better with any degree of certainty. I know you weren't blaming the whole thing on kobe, but the idea that since he didn't put the team on his back in the first half, or wasn't as good as prime kobe might have been with the same roster somehow diminishes his efforts that season, or that he was the worst version of kobe we'd seen in his prime, I cant get with that. I think it could be argued that 2012-13 kobe was better than both 2010-11 kobe and 2011-12 kobe, although those teams had more success overall.
Last edited by anpherknee on Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
After the 11 and 12 seasons i thought he was done.. (anyone remember this song? )But in 20013, no matter how the team played, individually he was at his best, especially after the ASB, he went nuts but with smarter decisions than ever. Even kobe himself said that that was some of his best basketball he ever played and i can only agree.
The amnesty game was another one of those crazy games:
Or his last seconds top of the key jumper vs barnes with his shirt in his mouth.
Good times
Easily one of his greatest individual seasons and without a doubt the greatest season in NBA history for a player in his 16th season. Incredible. _________________ Maybe you think it's completely innocent. Maybe you don't. But there's no denying that what the rule book says means a lot less than what the NBA wants at any given moment. -Tim Donaghy
Sounds like some confirmation from Kobe that this will be his final season.
Quote:
@mcten
Colangelo says that Kobe told him he'd like to "ride out to the sunset" with a gold in Rio, but he wants to earn the spot, not be handed it
I would love if Kobe went out like that.
Kobe also very recently said that he wasn't going to make the decision of if he would play beyond this season or not until AFTER the season.
He could just mean that he would like to add another olympic/gold medal run to the tail-end of his career. Doesn't necessarily mean that he would be done after the olympics.
Sounds like some confirmation from Kobe that this will be his final season.
Quote:
@mcten
Colangelo says that Kobe told him he'd like to "ride out to the sunset" with a gold in Rio, but he wants to earn the spot, not be handed it
I would love if Kobe went out like that.
Would be really awesome to see him on that team, but they can only bring 12 guys and giving up a spot to him might be a tough call given the other candidates that are available. At the guard spots I can see:
Steph/CP3
Westbrook/Harden/Klay
Tough to find a spot for Kobe IMO> _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
I've been ready to move on from the old Kobe for several years now.
Well that's dumb, because 2013 kobe was on another world
Hmm. I actually thought it was his worst season as the old Kobe. In fact, it was the first time where I felt like ok, the decline is finally here.
If I could have any Kobe from 2003-2013, the one I'd want least is the 2012-2013 Kobe.
At any rate, the guy hasn't been "Kobe" in about 3 seasons. Like I said, I will be ready either for a new Kobe (an efficient and awesome leader Kobe in a reduced role) or no Kobe at all. Old Kobe has left us.
2013 was one of the best years of Kobe's career.
He single handily kept us in the playoff race before the Achilles injury. He was absolutely sensational down the stretch especially.
If we had that Kobe we'd be a playoff team easily. Now he can still be effective and efficient and if he can play another 2-3 years we'd be fools to not want that. That's three years that we don't have to worry about a massive hole on the roster.
I've been ready to move on from the old Kobe for several years now.
Well that's dumb, because 2013 kobe was on another world
Hmm. I actually thought it was his worst season as the old Kobe. In fact, it was the first time where I felt like ok, the decline is finally here.
If I could have any Kobe from 2003-2013, the one I'd want least is the 2012-2013 Kobe.
At any rate, the guy hasn't been "Kobe" in about 3 seasons. Like I said, I will be ready either for a new Kobe (an efficient and awesome leader Kobe in a reduced role) or no Kobe at all. Old Kobe has left us.
2013 was one of the best years of Kobe's career.
He single handily kept us in the playoff race before the Achilles injury. He was absolutely sensational down the stretch especially.
If we had that Kobe we'd be a playoff team easily. Now he can still be effective and efficient and if he can play another 2-3 years we'd be fools to not want that. That's three years that we don't have to worry about a massive hole on the roster.
Maybe we're saying the same thing. I never said it was a bad season. I said I thought it was the worst season of his prime. Which, would still be one of Kobe's "best" seasons.
Which of Kobe's seasons, prior to 2012-2013, would you void out and replace with the 2012-2013?
The only ones for me would be his first few years as a young player, maybe 2003-2004, maybe 2004-2005, and that's about it. Every other prior season of his was a better one than 2012-2013 IMO.
If I had one season, to make the case as to why Kobe should be in the GOAT conversation, there is no way I'm using 2012-2013. Kobe's peak was way better than that. You're selling him short.
Sad. Kobe shouldve retired after these two amazing free throws and seal his legacy. Like Mike shouldve retired after the shot against Utah. Kobe you have given us fans your all. You got nothing prove anymore. We wish you the best and want you to win another ring but it's time to face reality that it's time to put it to rest. Kobe you will never be forgotten just seat back now and enjoy life
I've been ready to move on from the old Kobe for several years now.
Well that's dumb, because 2013 kobe was on another world
Hmm. I actually thought it was his worst season as the old Kobe. In fact, it was the first time where I felt like ok, the decline is finally here.
If I could have any Kobe from 2003-2013, the one I'd want least is the 2012-2013 Kobe.
At any rate, the guy hasn't been "Kobe" in about 3 seasons. Like I said, I will be ready either for a new Kobe (an efficient and awesome leader Kobe in a reduced role) or no Kobe at all. Old Kobe has left us.
2013 was one of the best years of Kobe's career.
He single handily kept us in the playoff race before the Achilles injury. He was absolutely sensational down the stretch especially.
If we had that Kobe we'd be a playoff team easily. Now he can still be effective and efficient and if he can play another 2-3 years we'd be fools to not want that. That's three years that we don't have to worry about a massive hole on the roster.
Maybe we're saying the same thing. I never said it was a bad season. I said I thought it was the worst season of his prime. Which, would still be one of Kobe's "best" seasons.
Which of Kobe's seasons, prior to 2012-2013, would you void out and replace with the 2012-2013?
The only ones for me would be his first few years as a young player, maybe 2003-2004, maybe 2004-2005, and that's about it. Every other prior season of his was a better one than 2012-2013 IMO.
If I had one season, to make the case as to why Kobe should be in the GOAT conversation, there is no way I'm using 2012-2013. Kobe's peak was way better than that. You're selling him short.
2004, 2005, 2011, 2012 are all seasons in which Kobe was arguably inferior than in 2013.
I've been ready to move on from the old Kobe for several years now.
Well that's dumb, because 2013 kobe was on another world
Hmm. I actually thought it was his worst season as the old Kobe. In fact, it was the first time where I felt like ok, the decline is finally here.
If I could have any Kobe from 2003-2013, the one I'd want least is the 2012-2013 Kobe.
At any rate, the guy hasn't been "Kobe" in about 3 seasons. Like I said, I will be ready either for a new Kobe (an efficient and awesome leader Kobe in a reduced role) or no Kobe at all. Old Kobe has left us.
2013 was one of the best years of Kobe's career.
He single handily kept us in the playoff race before the Achilles injury. He was absolutely sensational down the stretch especially.
If we had that Kobe we'd be a playoff team easily. Now he can still be effective and efficient and if he can play another 2-3 years we'd be fools to not want that. That's three years that we don't have to worry about a massive hole on the roster.
Maybe we're saying the same thing. I never said it was a bad season. I said I thought it was the worst season of his prime. Which, would still be one of Kobe's "best" seasons.
Which of Kobe's seasons, prior to 2012-2013, would you void out and replace with the 2012-2013?
The only ones for me would be his first few years as a young player, maybe 2003-2004, maybe 2004-2005, and that's about it. Every other prior season of his was a better one than 2012-2013 IMO.
If I had one season, to make the case as to why Kobe should be in the GOAT conversation, there is no way I'm using 2012-2013. Kobe's peak was way better than that. You're selling him short.
2004, 2005, 2011, 2012 are all seasons in which Kobe was arguably inferior than in 2013.
Sure, I could get on board with that. So how was that season one of the best of his career then? I certainly wouldn't put it in the top 3 or even the top 5.
Interesting Kobe is going to be on Shaq's next podcast for a 1 hour interview. They are going to play a clip on ESPN 710.
Wow, that's awesome. I wonder how much time has changed their perspective on their years together. Even with all of their success, there's still a "what could have been" quality to that duo. There haven't been too many times in history where arguably the two best players in the league were on the same team.
@mcten
Colangelo says that Kobe told him he'd like to "ride out to the sunset" with a gold in Rio, but he wants to earn the spot, not be handed it
The power of ageing athletes to delude themselves.... There is absolutely zero chance Kobe could truly earn a spot on the USA Olympic team. Currently, he's a high-volume shooter who makes an extremely low percentage and is one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. Not exactly what you want on Team USA. Wouldn't be shocked if they handed him the spot for old time's sake, though.
Grandfathering Kobe into national team is great. I just really want him to have a healthy year. If that happens he will give us enough vintage moments to allow us to firmly plant our middle fingers in the faces of the haters.
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