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GoldenThroat
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 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | We could run Golden State's offense and Scott would still be the whipping boy here at LG this upcoming season.
When we inevitably don't make the playoffs, he'll be getting the brunt of criticism. Even though we don't have a top 8 roster in our conference. |
Everybody knows we weren't contending or even making the playoffs with last year's roster, but that isn't an invitation or an excuse to run a poor system that's antithetical to generating wins. The perfect examples are Golden State and Atlanta. Functionally the same rosters as the year before, but a new system had GSW improve by 15 wins (and a title) and ATL by 22 wins. That isn't an "edge". That's a seismic shift in team productivity.
If Byron is maximizing the talent on the team and we fall short then good on him. If he isn't then it doesn't matter if we have the most talent or least talent. He has to go. |
Yep. Look at the Celtic roster last year. 40 wins. |
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22
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Ziggy wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Ziggy wrote: | | The Byron bashing is seriously old and completely ignorant imo. Phil Jackson could not have led last year's team to a better record. Everything Byron said makes complete sense. The numbers don't mean a damn thing without being put into basketball context. If the Lakers lacked that ability with their shoddy analytics department then how was that Byron's fault? People will complain about anything these days. It's just misplaced hate. |
So it was the analytics department's fault for not "coach 'splaining" it, or he was just too arrogant and lazy to read it? |
Hard to blame a department that never truly existed. What the Lakers had was more like stat-keeping then analytics. I think people here think analytics is some voodoo fairy dust that can be sprinkled onto a team to make them competitive. Where analytics is useful is when two teams are evenly matched in terms of talent. Tell me how often this team had equal or more talent then the opposition. I guarantee it was less than 21 times. |
That's the beauty of it. You put your talent in a position to fail, and then when they fail, you get to claim that you didn't have any talent. You put them in an offense that gets an inordinate amount of contested mid-range shots...often with plays that are designed to get those mid-range shots...and suddenly a guy like Nick Young mysteriously can't score anymore with any efficiency. You have Jordan Hill shooting 20 footers, and suddenly he can't rebound anymore. You set the pin down screens that get your mid-range shots on both low blocks, bringing bodies into the paint, and suddenly Jeremy Lin can't drive to the basket nearly as frequently, so you dick him around and play Ronnie freaking Price instead. You have minimal ball movement, and don't utilize the deep corners so your spacing sucks, and lo and behold, Kobe Bryant's now jacking up a difficult shot every other time down the court.
We didn't have a good roster last year, but it was definitely better than Scott made it out to be. We mostly consisted of mid-career vets, not a bunch of puppies like there were in Minnesota or Philly, and still had a pretty talented Kobe Bryant for half of the year. That was a 30-32 win roster. |
Yes but I wonder why everyone significantly forgets Scott changing the offense post all-star break which also helped the defense amazingly enough. But I've already been through the stats on that and it's in a post somewhere.
Amazingly when it comes time to complain about Scott the people that gave him credit for changing the offense in the 2nd half of the season and running more pick and rolls and adjusting it to a more modern style of Princeton forget that he did it.
Well.. he did. Scott changed the offense in the 2nd half of the season to something more effective and more modern, it was also something that made defending easier for us as our defensive numbers post all-star break was Top 15-16 so that's pretty cool which is why we had the biggest defensive improvement of all 30 teams post all-star break. The fact that it didn't raise our 'overall' up much from 30 to 29 is a testament to just how BAD we were defensively in the first half of the season.
But at the same time we shouldn't act like Byron didn't make adjustments and that the offense didn't get better in the 2nd half.
All these things, Byron changing the offense to something more modern in the 2nd half of the season, along with shooting more 3s and getting better shots and then after the season talking about having to adjust things to a more modern way. THEN when interviewed in Summer League saying he had to change his approach on things as well as his opinions on a few offensive strategies and what to do and THEN that is followed up by the analytics announcement, and now we have Scott saying it's going to play a bigger role.
IF we actually live in the 2nd half of the season till now in regards to Scott then it's all good signs.
IF we remain in the world of the 1st half of the season as if nothing changed at all, then we'll still be of that opinion and hate on him for it.
But as 2nd half of the season till now is more relevant as it's what's actually happening, then I believe Scott's committed to it. 2nd half of the season till now he's been doing the right things to evolve, both with his offense and approach to analytics and using them.
These are good things that really should be acknowledged more than it is. And funnily enough it WAS acknowledge as the draft was coming up and AFTER the season and ESPECIALLY after we drafted Russell.
But since 'free agency' everyone's significantly forgotten it and acted as if the Lakers and Scott are still stuck in the past when they wouldn't even have Russell(the guy Scott wanted the most by the way) if that was the case.
All signs seem to be pointing in the right direction thus far from the 2nd half of the season to now. |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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This is an excellent thread. Lots of intelligent insights and opinions. Good times.
I believe Scott was a tankmaster last season. Every time it seemed a player or unit was starting to click, Scott switched up the rotations to thwart that. He also insisted on doing things like getting Hill lots of mid range jumpers, playing a hobbled Kelly at SF and benching Lin for Price. And as a result we get to watch Russell in our backcourt for years to come. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you can evaluate what Scott did as a coach last season because he wasn't trying to win games.
Yes, he has a lot of old school philosophies, which is totally fine if you apply them with new school tactics. That's how I would describe Popovic. It's incumbent on Scott to show he can adjust his strategies. If it looks anything like it did last year he needs to be replaced. But so far he's said (a) he can imagine playing Bryant at PF (which shows he is thinking about 5-best-players vs. position) and that (b) he will be leveraging analytics more going forward. Proof is in the doing, but as 24 said, the Draft, the Analytics hire, Vitti retiring, Scott's comments, and even recent Mitch comments, all harbingers of progress.
As for players respecting Scott, I'm not sure I saw the same thing. There was no question the locker room was tense last year. I attribute that in part to a mismatch in agendas. Scott was looking to protect the pick while we had lots of vets on one-year/expiring deals who wanted a good showing. But it was Scott mishandling things too. In fact I think that hurt us in free agency. His "foxhole" and "shoot me in the back" comments were both off-color and very poor decision making. I think his mother had just passed or was very sick, so maybe it was point in life kind of thing. But as a manager, he has to do a better job in articulating his message. |
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anpherknee
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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One time for the fact that this is even a discussion right now  |
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Tony Anapolis
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | We could run Golden State's offense and Scott would still be the whipping boy here at LG this upcoming season.
When we inevitably don't make the playoffs, he'll be getting the brunt of criticism. Even though we don't have a top 8 roster in our conference. |
Why would we want to be like GS offense? Why can't we just make our own team to play to it's own strengths? GS runs the offense they do because of the players they have. I dont think we have similar players to GS really outside of Russell/Curry comparisons. Lou/Barbosa uncomparable, Clarkson/Thompson polar opposites, Kobe/Barnes lmao, Maybe Randle/Green are kind of similar? Hibbert/Bogut? |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Yes but I wonder why everyone significantly forgets Scott changing the offense post all-star break which also helped the defense amazingly enough. But I've already been through the stats on that and it's in a post somewhere.
Amazingly when it comes time to complain about Scott the people that gave him credit for changing the offense in the 2nd half of the season and running more pick and rolls and adjusting it to a more modern style of Princeton forget that he did it.
Well.. he did. Scott changed the offense in the 2nd half of the season to something more effective and more modern, it was also something that made defending easier for us as our defensive numbers post all-star break was Top 15-16 so that's pretty cool which is why we had the biggest defensive improvement of all 30 teams post all-star break. The fact that it didn't raise our 'overall' up much from 30 to 29 is a testament to just how BAD we were defensively in the first half of the season.
But at the same time we shouldn't act like Byron didn't make adjustments and that the offense didn't get better in the 2nd half.
All these things, Byron changing the offense to something more modern in the 2nd half of the season, along with shooting more 3s and getting better shots and then after the season talking about having to adjust things to a more modern way. THEN when interviewed in Summer League saying he had to change his approach on things as well as his opinions on a few offensive strategies and what to do and THEN that is followed up by the analytics announcement, and now we have Scott saying it's going to play a bigger role.
IF we actually live in the 2nd half of the season till now in regards to Scott then it's all good signs.
IF we remain in the world of the 1st half of the season as if nothing changed at all, then we'll still be of that opinion and hate on him for it.
But as 2nd half of the season till now is more relevant as it's what's actually happening, then I believe Scott's committed to it. 2nd half of the season till now he's been doing the right things to evolve, both with his offense and approach to analytics and using them.
These are good things that really should be acknowledged more than it is. And funnily enough it WAS acknowledge as the draft was coming up and AFTER the season and ESPECIALLY after we drafted Russell.
But since 'free agency' everyone's significantly forgotten it and acted as if the Lakers and Scott are still stuck in the past when they wouldn't even have Russell(the guy Scott wanted the most by the way) if that was the case.
All signs seem to be pointing in the right direction thus far from the 2nd half of the season to now. |
While this is an optimistic POV that I don't necessarily share, it's not an unfounded one. We certainly seem to be trending in the right direction, and that includes Byron. I hope it continues. |
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Rivershow
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Ziggy wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Ziggy wrote: | | The Byron bashing is seriously old and completely ignorant imo. Phil Jackson could not have led last year's team to a better record. Everything Byron said makes complete sense. The numbers don't mean a damn thing without being put into basketball context. If the Lakers lacked that ability with their shoddy analytics department then how was that Byron's fault? People will complain about anything these days. It's just misplaced hate. |
So it was the analytics department's fault for not "coach 'splaining" it, or he was just too arrogant and lazy to read it? |
Hard to blame a department that never truly existed. What the Lakers had was more like stat-keeping then analytics. I think people here think analytics is some voodoo fairy dust that can be sprinkled onto a team to make them competitive. Where analytics is useful is when two teams are evenly matched in terms of talent. Tell me how often this team had equal or more talent then the opposition. I guarantee it was less than 21 times. |
That's the beauty of it. You put your talent in a position to fail, and then when they fail, you get to claim that you didn't have any talent. You put them in an offense that gets an inordinate amount of contested mid-range shots...often with plays that are designed to get those mid-range shots...and suddenly a guy like Nick Young mysteriously can't score anymore with any efficiency. You have Jordan Hill shooting 20 footers, and suddenly he can't rebound anymore. You set the pin down screens that get your mid-range shots on both low blocks, bringing bodies into the paint, and suddenly Jeremy Lin can't drive to the basket nearly as frequently, so you dick him around and play Ronnie freaking Price instead. You have minimal ball movement, and don't utilize the deep corners so your spacing sucks, and lo and behold, Kobe Bryant's now jacking up a difficult shot every other time down the court.
We didn't have a good roster last year, but it was definitely better than Scott made it out to be. We mostly consisted of mid-career vets, not a bunch of puppies like there were in Minnesota or Philly, and still had a pretty talented Kobe Bryant for half of the year. That was a 30-32 win roster. |
Yes but I wonder why everyone significantly forgets Scott changing the offense post all-star break which also helped the defense amazingly enough. But I've already been through the stats on that and it's in a post somewhere.
Amazingly when it comes time to complain about Scott the people that gave him credit for changing the offense in the 2nd half of the season and running more pick and rolls and adjusting it to a more modern style of Princeton forget that he did it.
Well.. he did. Scott changed the offense in the 2nd half of the season to something more effective and more modern, it was also something that made defending easier for us as our defensive numbers post all-star break was Top 15-16 so that's pretty cool which is why we had the biggest defensive improvement of all 30 teams post all-star break. The fact that it didn't raise our 'overall' up much from 30 to 29 is a testament to just how BAD we were defensively in the first half of the season.
But at the same time we shouldn't act like Byron didn't make adjustments and that the offense didn't get better in the 2nd half.
All these things, Byron changing the offense to something more modern in the 2nd half of the season, along with shooting more 3s and getting better shots and then after the season talking about having to adjust things to a more modern way. THEN when interviewed in Summer League saying he had to change his approach on things as well as his opinions on a few offensive strategies and what to do and THEN that is followed up by the analytics announcement, and now we have Scott saying it's going to play a bigger role.
IF we actually live in the 2nd half of the season till now in regards to Scott then it's all good signs.
IF we remain in the world of the 1st half of the season as if nothing changed at all, then we'll still be of that opinion and hate on him for it.
But as 2nd half of the season till now is more relevant as it's what's actually happening, then I believe Scott's committed to it. 2nd half of the season till now he's been doing the right things to evolve, both with his offense and approach to analytics and using them.
These are good things that really should be acknowledged more than it is. And funnily enough it WAS acknowledge as the draft was coming up and AFTER the season and ESPECIALLY after we drafted Russell.
But since 'free agency' everyone's significantly forgotten it and acted as if the Lakers and Scott are still stuck in the past when they wouldn't even have Russell(the guy Scott wanted the most by the way) if that was the case.
All signs seem to be pointing in the right direction thus far from the 2nd half of the season to now. |
Agree, the cynicism has been a little thick in this thread. |
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OregonLakerGuy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care why or how Byron eventually decided to start using analytics. I am pleased that he did and hopes he uses them well.
He is the head coach of the Lakers and I want this team to flourish. |
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Love&Peace
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I watched some of the sl games and they did run the Princeton but they also ran the pnr (4 out 1 in) with two guys in the corners.
As long as we speed up the tempo in transition and mix in more pnr ill be happy. Who knows maybe a little Princeton might help our team be a little unpredictable.
Im pretty optimistic anyways and hearing Bryon say he going to use analytics is more exciting than hearing him say he wants the team to take 14 threes a game.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Love&Peace wrote: | I watched some of the sl games and they did run the Princeton but they also ran the pnr (4 out 1 in) with two guys in the corners.
As long as we speed up the tempo in transition and mix in more pnr ill be happy. Who knows maybe a little Princeton might help our team be a little unpredictable.
Im pretty optimistic anyways and hearing Bryon say he going to use analytics is more exciting than hearing him say he wants the team to take 14 threes a game. |
Yes, that happened mostly after they started getting hammered on talk radio for the offense. They still managed to take far too many midrange shots IMO, but again...it's summer league. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Yes but I wonder why everyone significantly forgets Scott changing the offense post all-star break which also helped the defense amazingly enough. But I've already been through the stats on that and it's in a post somewhere.
Amazingly when it comes time to complain about Scott the people that gave him credit for changing the offense in the 2nd half of the season and running more pick and rolls and adjusting it to a more modern style of Princeton forget that he did it.
Well.. he did. Scott changed the offense in the 2nd half of the season to something more effective and more modern, it was also something that made defending easier for us as our defensive numbers post all-star break was Top 15-16 so that's pretty cool which is why we had the biggest defensive improvement of all 30 teams post all-star break. The fact that it didn't raise our 'overall' up much from 30 to 29 is a testament to just how BAD we were defensively in the first half of the season.
But at the same time we shouldn't act like Byron didn't make adjustments and that the offense didn't get better in the 2nd half.
All these things, Byron changing the offense to something more modern in the 2nd half of the season, along with shooting more 3s and getting better shots and then after the season talking about having to adjust things to a more modern way. THEN when interviewed in Summer League saying he had to change his approach on things as well as his opinions on a few offensive strategies and what to do and THEN that is followed up by the analytics announcement, and now we have Scott saying it's going to play a bigger role.
IF we actually live in the 2nd half of the season till now in regards to Scott then it's all good signs.
IF we remain in the world of the 1st half of the season as if nothing changed at all, then we'll still be of that opinion and hate on him for it.
But as 2nd half of the season till now is more relevant as it's what's actually happening, then I believe Scott's committed to it. 2nd half of the season till now he's been doing the right things to evolve, both with his offense and approach to analytics and using them.
These are good things that really should be acknowledged more than it is. And funnily enough it WAS acknowledge as the draft was coming up and AFTER the season and ESPECIALLY after we drafted Russell.
But since 'free agency' everyone's significantly forgotten it and acted as if the Lakers and Scott are still stuck in the past when they wouldn't even have Russell(the guy Scott wanted the most by the way) if that was the case.
All signs seem to be pointing in the right direction thus far from the 2nd half of the season to now. |
While this is an optimistic POV that I don't necessarily share, it's not an unfounded one. We certainly seem to be trending in the right direction, and that includes Byron. I hope it continues. |
I do too. As with everything I want it to be consistent.
Give us health and consistency in the right direction this year and I'll be a happy camper lol ^_^
The more I see Nick Young spotting up off ball(where his numbers are extremely solid) then we'll know the analytics are at work. Because they'd say that is where Young is best utilized. As a spot up shooter he was extremely solid, so now with Lou Williams with the bench we can take full advantage of that.
If we got Kendall Marshall again (as a backup 1) as a playmaker setting up guys like Williams, Young, Kelly, Brown, Black, Nance etc for easy shots with our bench, I wouldn't mind that in the slightest. |
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Love&Peace
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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   Kendall Marshall. If i never hear of that guy again ill be happy.
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lukewaltonsdad
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| There's a coach in Dallas who's contract is up at the end of the year; he's getting paid about the same amount of Byron right now. Maybe he's up for a pay raise and a change of location. Oh, and he embraces analytics. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Is there a Kendall Marshall rumor circulating or something? |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mirak wrote: | LOL, Lakersground is full of people who would be better coaches than Byron…if we lived in an imaginary world where people with no professional connection to basketball at the elite level could actually get coaching jobs.
Just take the report as good news and move on, people. |
But how could we know it is good news if we aren't allowed to know anything? Maybe the big problem here is that even a bunch of amateurs can see the giant problems with Byron's schemes. |
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Megaton
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | It may not happen this season, but the next shoe to drop is an analytics friendly x and o assistant coach being added. |
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEE... |
I had that idea here first damn it! 
Would love Luke here. Always said that while a bad player, has a very smart mind, a coach mind.
With Kobe retiring next season and Byron likely canned as well at that time span, we should give the call to Luke. 
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gumby
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I would settle down and ease up on the Luke bandwagon here. It hasn't been that long since people here were making up nicknames for him.
He's young and promising, but how many years has he been in the coaching ranks.
Ah, yeah.... let's let him gain experience first from a better coaching situation before "we start sucking..."
Until then, ownership should keep him on their potential radar. Then in a few years the Lakers can make a play for him if they haven't found a better new school coach.
Bye.
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Megaton
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| gumby wrote: | I would settle down and ease up on the Luke bandwagon here. It hasn't been that long since people here were making up nicknames for him.
He's young and promising, but how many years has he been in the coaching ranks.
Ah, yeah.... let's let him gain experience first from a better coaching situation before "we start sucking each....".
Until then, ownership should keep him on their potential radar. Then in a few years the Lakers can make a play for him if they haven't found a better new school coach.
Bye. |
Kerr seemed to do ok with his very first year of coaching no?
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cthroatgtr
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think there was more to the DA meeting than has gotten out. I think the Lakers basically were owned by the other teams and realized they needed an upgrade. The analytics for this team is really a new concept but one they are trying to embrace. Happened in baseball too...eventually the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers had to go all in, but were reluctant to do so initially.
It is easy to bag on Scott, but he did get the Hornets to the WCF with basically Chris Paul and David West. Finals with NJ. He inherited an awful team in Cleveland but developed Irving and in fact that team was worse with Mike Brown. Don't get consumed by his overall record he really hasn't had a talented team to work with in a long time.
Everyone also wants to hate on the Princeton, but it was ran well in Sacramento several years back. It also has some similar principles to the triangle. More importantly I think it is a good offense for a team with two tweeners in Clarkson & Russell. In the half court you need some structure. You can't just run P&R all of the time. Clippers do that and by the fourth quarter it isn't working so well because they run it the whole game. Lakers with PJ would run triangle for 3 and P&R for 1 and managed 5 championships. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cthroatgtr wrote: | I think there was more to the DA meeting than has gotten out. I think the Lakers basically were owned by the other teams and realized they needed an upgrade. The analytics for this team is really a new concept but one they are trying to embrace. Happened in baseball too...eventually the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers had to go all in, but were reluctant to do so initially.
It is easy to bag on Scott, but he did get the Hornets to the WCF with basically Chris Paul and David West. Finals with NJ. He inherited an awful team in Cleveland but developed Irving and in fact that team was worse with Mike Brown. Don't get consumed by his overall record he really hasn't had a talented team to work with in a long time.
Everyone also wants to hate on the Princeton, but it was ran well in Sacramento several years back. It also has some similar principles to the triangle. More importantly I think it is a good offense for a team with two tweeners in Clarkson & Russell. In the half court you need some structure. You can't just run P&R all of the time. Clippers do that and by the fourth quarter it isn't working so well because they run it the whole game. Lakers with PJ would run triangle for 3 and P&R for 1 and managed 5 championships. |
I think you are spot on about teams adopting analytics, and especially about the traditional powerhouses. Oddly, the credit for LA heading in that direction belongs to none other than Jim Buss (Mitch is an old school guy). He started with some probably pretty crude stuff on spreadsheets using the league provided stats that Rudy T and his son were crunching for the team. But to his credit, he quickly learned he needed more and hired a team of MIT data experts. He was still a little slow to adopt the SPortsvu technology (along with about half the league), but that was rectified when the league installed it everywhere.
I suspect last season, much of the impetus was around the MIT guys learning to harness the vast pool of data that 6 cameras shooting 25 frames per second of every moment of NBA game entails. I would guess that they were buried trying to catch up to this massive data dump (that's 150 frames per second of each game, or 432,000 frames per game, or 35.4 million frames in a season of Laker games--not counting overtime games--, or 531.4 million frames for a complete NBA season of all teams, again, not counting overtime, playoffs, or pre-season). Then you get into parsing that by player, play type, different actions, results, etc. Huge job. And LA was not really well set up t translate that to a coach who admits he doesn't like the stuff, and mainly were just dumping reports on Madsen, and he in turn was giving them to Scott.
Nonetheless, it is pretty obvious whatever data they were pulling together resonated with the front office, and they have moved very heavily into implementing the information. They hired an analytics friendly D league coach, are replacing their training staff (I highly doubt the timing of Vitti's departure is coincidental), and elevating an assistant ofScott's to a full time job working between the data people and Scott, not to mention drafting a very analytics friendly class of rookies.
As far as your last part, there is a common misconceptions that analytics leads to just running pick and roll each time down. Simply not true. San Antonio, for example, has a very complex motion offense that, while it features the pic and roll heavily, has a lot of off ball and non pick and roll actions and options.
The other misconception is that there is no continuum between all pick and roll and antiquated offenses like the Princeton or Triangle. There is certainly nothing wrong with borrowing sets from either (as they in turn have borrowed actions from other offenses), but you need to run something that recognizes and capitalizes on the new rules and the new wealth of data available. Some of what that data will tell you is something many of us recognize by watching these offenses. Run in their traditional form, they simply don't compromise modern, analytics advised defenses, and thus don't get high value shots, but rather, their pet sets (playing through the post) and actions result in exactly the shots modern defenses wor to make you take, namely mid and low post jumpers and mid range shots, often on the move. Low value stuff. Their lack of compromising the defense, and of clogging the lane leaves very little room for high percentage dribble actions, and provide a dearth of high value threes shot from open men as a result of compromised defenses. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| gumby wrote: | I would settle down and ease up on the Luke bandwagon here. It hasn't been that long since people here were making up nicknames for him.
He's young and promising, but how many years has he been in the coaching ranks.
Ah, yeah.... let's let him gain experience first from a better coaching situation before "we start sucking..."
Until then, ownership should keep him on their potential radar. Then in a few years the Lakers can make a play for him if they haven't found a better new school coach.
Bye. |
Kerr seemed to do just fine in his first year.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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The Logo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2013
Posts: 9577
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| He was a former head coach and scout. Hopefully he works out well for us. |
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The Logo
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2013
Posts: 9577
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | gumby wrote: | I would settle down and ease up on the Luke bandwagon here. It hasn't been that long since people here were making up nicknames for him.
He's young and promising, but how many years has he been in the coaching ranks.
Ah, yeah.... let's let him gain experience first from a better coaching situation before "we start sucking..."
Until then, ownership should keep him on their potential radar. Then in a few years the Lakers can make a play for him if they haven't found a better new school coach.
Bye. |
Kerr seemed to do just fine in his first year. |
Kerr received an exceptional talented team in his first year. Sure, Mark Jackson couldn't do anything with them but he was a dunce. Kerr does receive a fair amount of credit for convincing everyone to accept their role and is one of the better coaches in the league, but if he received the same team that Fisher had, the criticism would be exactly the same. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | As far as your last part, there is a common misconceptions that analytics leads to just running pick and roll each time down. Simply not true. San Antonio, for example, has a very complex motion offense that, while it features the pic and roll heavily, has a lot of off ball and non pick and roll actions and options.
The other misconception is that there is no continuum between all pick and roll and antiquated offenses like the Princeton or Triangle. There is certainly nothing wrong with borrowing sets from either (as they in turn have borrowed actions from other offenses), but you need to run something that recognizes and capitalizes on the new rules and the new wealth of data available. Some of what that data will tell you is something many of us recognize by watching these offenses. Run in their traditional form, they simply don't compromise modern, analytics advised defenses, and thus don't get high value shots, but rather, their pet sets (playing through the post) and actions result in exactly the shots modern defenses wor to make you take, namely mid and low post jumpers and mid range shots, often on the move. Low value stuff. Their lack of compromising the defense, and of clogging the lane leaves very little room for high percentage dribble actions, and provide a dearth of high value threes shot from open men as a result of compromised defenses. |
Yes, there seems to be this false paradigm where people think that you either run Princeton/Triangle OR high PnR every play, when that's simply not the case.
In the simplest of terms, good offense is launching as many credible attacks on the basket as possible in the 24 seconds allowed. That's why teams like Golden State, San Antonio, Atlanta, have a tremendous amount of player and ball movement. Every cut, every pass, and every screen is a potential attack on the basket.
Golden State had more assists this year than ANY NBA team in the last 20 years. That simply can't happen just off of high PnR. |
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