I think good coaching and good players will always prevail over analytics unfortunately based on track record Byron is a Sub Par coach and neither a true believer in analytics.
Or like the Warriors, Spurs and Heat, you take good coaching, players AND robust use of analytics. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
I think good coaching and good players will always prevail over analytics unfortunately based on track record Byron is a Sub Par coach and neither a true believer in analytics.
Or like the Warriors, Spurs and Heat, you take good coaching, players AND robust use of analytics.
yes but they also have good management to back that up
Seriously, who wants this clown to be the head coach of this increasingly clown ship?
Yeah there's another clown coach by the name of Pat Riley who's not a lover of analytics. I remember his comments a few years ago where he said; analytics guys “make me squeamy a little bit.” … Sorry.
Analytics is over hyped, give me great players and a coach that knows how to sell his system, when to use his players I will give you a successful team.
In baseball way over hyped, love the movie Trouble with the curve. Old scout using his eyes and knowledge of the game instead of some stupid analytical program to get it down right.
You mean this Pat Riley?:
Quote:
NBA.com: What statistical tools do you use?
Erik Spoelstra: We have a proprietary statistical database that we've had since I was an assistant coach. We developed it with our personal software writer for stats. He's based out of L.A. and his name is Shmuel Einstein.
When Pat [Riley] wanted to turn the corner statistically 10-plus years ago, he put me in charge of it with a blank canvas. So I figured he would be a good guy to hire since his name was Einstein.
NBA.com: So Pat was the one who originally drove you into statistics?
E.S.: He always wanted to crunch numbers and look at different ways of doing it. So he met with me one time and said, "I want more information. I don't know exactly what. Find somebody who can write a program, and take it where you think it can go."
NBA.com: And how much has it developed over time?
E.S.: Quite a bit. When I became head coach, I hired another guy that I've known for a long time, Bob Chaikin. He used to run a statistical database site and he runs simulations for me. So that's a little bit out of the box.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:41 am Post subject:
greenfrog wrote:
There's an assumption that because of Byron's statement we'll be shooting far more 3's or less long 2's next year. That's not necessarily the case. It's possible he means defensive analytics. The Grizzles for example have the godfather of advanced stats running their team and year after year put zero emphasis on pace or 3-point shooting.
There's no indication that even if Byron wanted to raise the number of threes, he would know how to achieve it. We were among the league leaders last year in pull up 3's, 3's after several dribble, 3's after holding the ball in place for several seconds, and contested 3's.
These are the kind you generally don't want to take (unless you seem to be talented at it like Russell), and that any team can get if they really wanted to.
The main benefit of analytics likely will be to cut down on the dumb decisions based on "gut feel", or on "that's the way we've always done it". Baby steps. Start with the crappy clock management and late game foul management and then move on to more important things, like the horrible lineups..
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject:
fiendishoc wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
There's an assumption that because of Byron's statement we'll be shooting far more 3's or less long 2's next year. That's not necessarily the case. It's possible he means defensive analytics. The Grizzles for example have the godfather of advanced stats running their team and year after year put zero emphasis on pace or 3-point shooting.
There's no indication that even if Byron wanted to raise the number of threes, he would know how to achieve it. We were among the league leaders last year in pull up 3's, 3's after several dribble, 3's after holding the ball in place for several seconds, and contested 3's.
These are the kind you generally don't want to take (unless you seem to be talented at it like Russell), and that any team can get if they really wanted to.
The main benefit of analytics likely will be to cut down on the dumb decisions based on "gut feel", or on "that's the way we've always done it". Baby steps. Start with the crappy clock management and late game foul management and then move on to more important things, like the horrible lineups..
I was just looking at our 5-man units from last season on 82games.com. Not surprisingly our two worst lineups were the ones by far used the most. Yes, both had Kobe.
It's great bscott is on board. Franchise is on the way back up. Analytics is great to look at when you have good players. We finally have some decent players. People will probably point to analytics for our improvement when it's the talent. But dlo was drafted because of his analytics
I think good coaching and good players will always prevail over analytics unfortunately based on track record Byron is a Sub Par coach and neither a true believer in analytics.
Or like the Warriors, Spurs and Heat, you take good coaching, players AND robust use of analytics.
yes but they also have good management to back that up
Yes, but the good management might have also been what got their teams into SportVu usage and related analytics earlier than other teams in the league.
Hopefully everything is correct on the following Post Season results for recent years...
Kopp set out to approach those teams he felt would be most receptive to new technology: “It’s not like we offered this to all 30 teams.” Those charter members — guinea pigs? — were the Houston Rockets, billionaire Mark Cuban’s Dallas Mavericks, the San Antonio Spurs and the Oklahoma City Thunder.
As it happens, the Golden State Warriors weren’t looking to become a part of the NBA’s semisecret pack of data-minded revolutionaries. Hell, Warriors fans were just happy enough to be rid of despised former owner Chris Cohan, who sold the team last summer to venture capitalist Joe Lacob (a partner at Kleiner Perkins for 24 years) and film producer Peter Guber.
Lacob’s 22-year-old son Kirk, the team’s newly minted director of basketball operations, brought a fresh face and youthful energy to the front office, while Schlenk provided experience and contacts. But it another member of this forward-thinking triumvirate who started the whole process with Stats.
In mid-October, opening night for the 2010-11 season was still 11 days away when Pat Sund, the team’s basketball operations coordinator and son of Atlanta Hawks general manager Rick Sund, found himself at the Northern California Symposium on Statistics and Operations Research in Sports. While there, taking in all the sports geekery one could expect to encounter at tiny Menlo College, he bumped into Dean Oliver, a former director of quantitative analysis for the NBA’s Denver Nuggets, who’s since become ESPN’s first-ever director of production analytics.
Oliver talked up the system to Sund, who took the info back to Schlenk and Kirk Lacob at Warriors HQ. Within weeks, the Warriors staff had contacted Stats and a technician was flown the 1,850 miles to scope out SportVU’s potential West Coast testing ground.
Redoing the recent Post Season results with the early wave of team using SportVu bolded.
Of course the sample size is small and those teams had other factors in their favor beyond Analytics, but it does suggest that other teams might start think about examining the use of Analytics more closely.
Scott aside, at least we finally picked up the shotgun.
Amen.
Was any of that on display in the Summer League (yes, you can make a case it's worthless)? Are they still committed to the Princeton offense? Will Kobe still have his blessing to basically do whatever he wants out there? It's all wait and see.
As long as Kobe has carte blanche to do whatever he wants and as long as B Scott is your coach, I don't see that the Lakers can improve in any way. I think the Lakers should tank again and go after the number one draft pick.
The front office needs to get their their head out of their a**. You don't pick up a guard when there's a franchise big man around. You can always trade for a guard but franchise Centers, they don't come along very often.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:02 am Post subject:
allyoop wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Gimme_the_rock wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Scott aside, at least we finally picked up the shotgun.
Amen.
Was any of that on display in the Summer League (yes, you can make a case it's worthless)? Are they still committed to the Princeton offense? Will Kobe still have his blessing to basically do whatever he wants out there? It's all wait and see.
As long as Kobe has carte blanche to do whatever he wants and as long as B Scott is your coach, I don't see that the Lakers can improve in any way. I think the Lakers should tank again and go after the number one draft pick.
The front office needs to get their their head out of their a**. You don't pick up a guard when there's a franchise big man around. You can always trade for a guard but franchise Centers, they don't come along very often.
Oh man, another one... I don't think Mitch could have made it any more clear:
Mitch Kupchak wrote:
You look around this building and you see (Wilt) Chamberlain and (Kareem Abdul-) Jabbar and you see Shaquille O’Neal’s (jerseys on the wall). Those were three pretty good centers, and there was a center available that we did not select...
You still need quality big men in this league. And if any of those players on the wall were available, we would’ve selected them, but they weren’t.
I'm sure the signing of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all analytical? I think the tweaking of the roster afterwards was probably the analytical part.
Of course you pick up the best players you can. Those three were top 10 players. Then you combine that with a solid analytical department that helped them improve their games. The advanced stats told Lebron to stop taking long 2s and 3s and boom, he changed his game up for 2 rings.
Good players, good coaching, good management, good analytics department.
That's the recipe for the last 4 champs: Warriors, Spurs, Heat. All had that. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
I'm sure the signing of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all analytical? I think the tweaking of the roster afterwards was probably the analytical part.
Of course you pick up the best players you can. Those three were top 10 players. Then you combine that with a solid analytical department that helped them improve their games. The advanced stats told Lebron to stop taking long 2s and 3s and boom, he changed his game up for 2 rings.
Good players, good coaching, good management, good analytics department.
That's the recipe for the last 4 champs: Warriors, Spurs, Heat. All had that.
For sure. I'm sure the only analytics Miami was thinking about when they first got those three was mostly financial analytics
I do remember when Spo came out in the media and basically told LBJ to stop thinking he was Kobe I loved it!
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:13 am Post subject:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
I'm sure the signing of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all analytical? I think the tweaking of the roster afterwards was probably the analytical part.
No one ever said that. The same way no one said that signing LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all strength training, having a medical staff, or taking a plane instead of a bus on road trips. But your franchise would be horribly backwards and handicapped competitively if you didn't have those things.
I'm sure the signing of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all analytical? I think the tweaking of the roster afterwards was probably the analytical part.
No one ever said that. The same way no one said that signing LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all strength training, having a medical staff, or taking a plane instead of a bus on road trips. But your franchise would be horribly backwards and handicapped competitively if you didn't have those things.
I get it bro, it really is just common sense to me.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:23 am Post subject:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
I'm sure the signing of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all analytical? I think the tweaking of the roster afterwards was probably the analytical part.
No one ever said that. The same way no one said that signing LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all strength training, having a medical staff, or taking a plane instead of a bus on road trips. But your franchise would be horribly backwards and handicapped competitively if you didn't have those things.
I get it bro, it really is just common sense to me.
Guess I had you confused with another poster .
Regarding the Heat, they are probably the only franchise with a head coach who actually spearheaded the team's analytics efforts himself.
No one is saying that with terrible talent, "analytics" will magically turn that team into a juggernaut. Look at the 76ers.
Analytics is just one leg of the chair. Ownership, players, coaching, analytics, etc. When you take that leg out for no good reason, be wary of the wobble. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Seriously, who wants this clown to be the head coach of this increasingly clown ship?
Yeah there's another clown coach by the name of Pat Riley who's not a lover of analytics. I remember his comments a few years ago where he said; analytics guys “make me squeamy a little bit.” … Sorry.
Analytics is over hyped, give me great players and a coach that knows how to sell his system, when to use his players I will give you a successful team.
In baseball way over hyped, love the movie Trouble with the curve. Old scout using his eyes and knowledge of the game instead of some stupid analytical program to get it down right.
You mean this Pat Riley?:
Quote:
NBA.com: What statistical tools do you use?
Erik Spoelstra: We have a proprietary statistical database that we've had since I was an assistant coach. We developed it with our personal software writer for stats. He's based out of L.A. and his name is Shmuel Einstein.
When Pat [Riley] wanted to turn the corner statistically 10-plus years ago, he put me in charge of it with a blank canvas. So I figured he would be a good guy to hire since his name was Einstein.
NBA.com: So Pat was the one who originally drove you into statistics?
E.S.: He always wanted to crunch numbers and look at different ways of doing it. So he met with me one time and said, "I want more information. I don't know exactly what. Find somebody who can write a program, and take it where you think it can go."
NBA.com: And how much has it developed over time?
E.S.: Quite a bit. When I became head coach, I hired another guy that I've known for a long time, Bob Chaikin. He used to run a statistical database site and he runs simulations for me. So that's a little bit out of the box.
Yeah this Pat Riley;
It doesn't seem as though the Heat will fully embrace analytics anytime soon, as Riley said proponents of advance metrics "make me squeamy a little bit," Haberstroh tweets.
Scott comes from the old school of Riley, which is hard work and defense. Guys like Wooden who believe you out work your opponent, not number him to death..lol
Seriously, who wants this clown to be the head coach of this increasingly clown ship?
Yeah there's another clown coach by the name of Pat Riley who's not a lover of analytics. I remember his comments a few years ago where he said; analytics guys “make me squeamy a little bit.” … Sorry.
Analytics is over hyped, give me great players and a coach that knows how to sell his system, when to use his players I will give you a successful team.
In baseball way over hyped, love the movie Trouble with the curve. Old scout using his eyes and knowledge of the game instead of some stupid analytical program to get it down right.
You mean this Pat Riley?:
Quote:
NBA.com: What statistical tools do you use?
Erik Spoelstra: We have a proprietary statistical database that we've had since I was an assistant coach. We developed it with our personal software writer for stats. He's based out of L.A. and his name is Shmuel Einstein.
When Pat [Riley] wanted to turn the corner statistically 10-plus years ago, he put me in charge of it with a blank canvas. So I figured he would be a good guy to hire since his name was Einstein.
NBA.com: So Pat was the one who originally drove you into statistics?
E.S.: He always wanted to crunch numbers and look at different ways of doing it. So he met with me one time and said, "I want more information. I don't know exactly what. Find somebody who can write a program, and take it where you think it can go."
NBA.com: And how much has it developed over time?
E.S.: Quite a bit. When I became head coach, I hired another guy that I've known for a long time, Bob Chaikin. He used to run a statistical database site and he runs simulations for me. So that's a little bit out of the box.
Yeah this Pat Riley;
It doesn't seem as though the Heat will fully embrace analytics anytime soon, as Riley said proponents of advance metrics "make me squeamy a little bit," Haberstroh tweets.
Scott comes from the old school of Riley, which is hard work and defense. Guys like Wooden who believe you out work your opponent, not number him to death..lol
The Heat embrace analytics. And Riley approves of it. C'mon now.
And for that matter the Lakers do too, finally lol
Believe me I understand this shot is probably the worse possible shot you can take in this situation. But Gawd I love Kobe for this.
They even did an interview with David Stern shortly after this where he basically said it was one of the most amazing shots he ever seen.
"Add insult to injury Kobe, I mean what a shot. You can't defend that."
The guy, in some respects (to me), is actually a little underrated.
Agreed. I watched an NPZ video yesterday where Kobe scored 17 straight points for the Lakers against Seattle. They went from a deficit at the half to being up by like 10. He was only 20 years old. To end the run he made a nice assist in traffic to Shaq. One of the announcers was amazed by his scoring ability but could only keep harping on how he thought Kobe should get his teammates involved more.
I'm like dude this guys just scored 17 in a row and got his team the lead! What more do you want? smh. Story of his career.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 am Post subject:
allyoop wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Gimme_the_rock wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Scott aside, at least we finally picked up the shotgun.
Amen.
Was any of that on display in the Summer League (yes, you can make a case it's worthless)? Are they still committed to the Princeton offense? Will Kobe still have his blessing to basically do whatever he wants out there? It's all wait and see.
As long as Kobe has carte blanche to do whatever he wants and as long as B Scott is your coach, I don't see that the Lakers can improve in any way. I think the Lakers should tank again and go after the number one draft pick.
The front office needs to get their their head out of their a**. You don't pick up a guard when there's a franchise big man around. You can always trade for a guard but franchise Centers, they don't come along very often.
There was? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:53 am Post subject:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
I'm sure the signing of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh was all analytical? I think the tweaking of the roster afterwards was probably the analytical part.
Of course you pick up the best players you can. Those three were top 10 players. Then you combine that with a solid analytical department that helped them improve their games. The advanced stats told Lebron to stop taking long 2s and 3s and boom, he changed his game up for 2 rings.
Good players, good coaching, good management, good analytics department.
That's the recipe for the last 4 champs: Warriors, Spurs, Heat. All had that.
And analytics will help a GM determine what players fit together. There have been other big name groupings that haven't won titles because their games were not complimentary. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:09 am Post subject:
venturalakersfan wrote:
allyoop wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Gimme_the_rock wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Scott aside, at least we finally picked up the shotgun.
Amen.
Was any of that on display in the Summer League (yes, you can make a case it's worthless)? Are they still committed to the Princeton offense? Will Kobe still have his blessing to basically do whatever he wants out there? It's all wait and see.
As long as Kobe has carte blanche to do whatever he wants and as long as B Scott is your coach, I don't see that the Lakers can improve in any way. I think the Lakers should tank again and go after the number one draft pick.
The front office needs to get their their head out of their a**. You don't pick up a guard when there's a franchise big man around. You can always trade for a guard but franchise Centers, they don't come along very often.
There was?
FWIW, name the last title won by a team whose best player was a franchise big?
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