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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:16 am Post subject: Kobe’s Final Years (2014-Current) Will History Be Kind or Unkind? |
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Couple of provisos:
1. I’m hoping and cheering for Kobe to have a healthy and good year. By that I’m hoping for 65 games, 20/5/5. That’s just my hope.
2. It’s unlikely we make the playoffs, and may be another lottery bound team (though I think we will be much better on the court).
3. Let’s assume he retires after this season, or maybe after 2016 where his stats go down further.
Other examples of HOF, top-25 all-time players with less than stellar final seasons (using SLAM magazine’s top 500 list, circa 2011 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html)
Shaq: his final 5 years (2006-2011) were mediocre. He didn’t hit over 20 ppg, only averaged over 10 rpg once, and generally played less than 50% of the games. I think history has been kind to him by basically erasing these final years.
Hakeem: he was a shell of himself in his final 3 years (2000-02, ages 37-39). Averaged around 9 ppg. Actually, looking back at his final 5 years, averaged 52 games a season. History has pretty much written off these years when considering the Dream.
Dr. J: His relative decline started at age 34, where he averaged 20 ppg (then his lowest), 18 ppg, and 16.8 ppg. He was relatively healthy playing around 70 games a season. I think his durability and continued production was helpful to his legacy.
Elgin Baylor: his final 2 years were terrible due to nagging injuries. At age 36 and 37, he played a TOTAL of 11 games, averaging around 10 ppg.
Charles Barkley: his final 3 years (age 34-36) were well below his standards. Averaged 43 games a season, and around 15 ppg.
Of course you had other top-25 all-time players who finished out their careers on better notes, but these players also show that history hasn’t been unkind to their legacies even when their performance drop precipitously. I hope that history will similarly be kind to Kobe and his final years. He was definitely balling in 2012-13 before he tore his Achilles. I have little reason to doubt he would have played better in 2014 and 2015 if he wasn’t hurt (duh). However, even taking this into account, it would be unfair and a double standard to use Kobe’s final years against him.
Unfortunately, I think history will be unkind to Kobe when it uses the final years against him when the discussion is about the best player ever. But for purposes of the top 10 (where Kobe should be firmly in place), I don't think these final years will be a decisive knock against him. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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audioaxes Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 12573
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:28 am Post subject: |
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athletes slowing down is a fact of life. Nobody holds that against them |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:43 am Post subject: |
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audioaxes wrote: | athletes slowing down is a fact of life. Nobody holds that against them |
Well, I have a feeling that Kobe's final years may be held against him by some, and I just wanted to show that other top 25 guys didn't exactly finish their great careers with guns blazing. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Gwyn Star Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 3499
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:12 am Post subject: |
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The people who would hold it against him, are probably the same dicks who hold his earlier success with Shaq against him. _________________ Lakers win record when Kobe goes for 40+ points
God bless Kobe Bean Bryant and Gianna Maria Onore Bryant. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Gwyn wrote: | The people who would hold it against him, are probably the same dicks who hold his earlier success with Shaq against him. |
I think it only comes into play if we're talking about the GOAT conversation, but not as much in the top-10 all time conversation. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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it almost sounded like you were asking if history is going to be kind to Kobe's career. but what you are really asking is how well is he going to play these last few years. which is an odd question the way you phrased it because it's not really a matter of history being kind or unkind, but just basically how well is he going to play.
ok...to answer your intended question...i don't know! lol.
i don't know because this is a strange team to me. i've never seen kobe play on this kind of a team. this is very different than any laker team i've ever seen. all young guys, all unknown commodities. even the guys we've seen play, we've only seen them play on a tanking team, which doesn't really indicate how they would play on a serious team.
and we know kobe is not going to play his usual role, he might play sf or pf sometimes, so there are too many unknowns for me to have much of an idea how he will play. i'm guessing and hoping he's going to play off a lot of screens and do a lot more post play. whatever he does, i'm sure he will be great at it, as he always is. hopefully no injuries.
the unfortunate thing now is that people have gotten used to looking at numbers and making conclusions (ridiculous conclusions) about players. so in that sense, the numbers are most likely not going to do him any favors going forward. but who cares, i don't think kobe cares. i don't care. the great thing, though, is that this is the youtube age, and no matter what the numbers say, we have loads of video to show how great kobe is. so even if he has poor numbers in old man mode, we'll still be able to watch the video repeatedly to really see if those numbers reflect badness or goodness. kobe wants to win, and if he shoots the ball at a 20% clip and wins a ring, he's going to do that. we'll see...i really have no idea, and it's actually one of the very few things left in the nba that is making me look forward to this upcoming season. |
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53790
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think anyone is remembered by their worst years. In terms of Kobe's place in history, it should be noted that even his most of his biggest detractors still have him as a Top 10 player All Time. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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ocho wrote: | I don't think anyone is remembered by their worst years. In terms of Kobe's place in history, it should be noted that even his most of his biggest detractors still have him as a Top 10 player All Time. |
the funny thing is the MJ is probably the most revered player of all time, and even HE gets a lot of unkind treatment and jokes regarding his wizard years. so for kobe, i'm just bracing for the reaction, if you know what i mean. he is nowhere near as universally loved as MJ....people are going to really dig in on these later years. it's going to be rough. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | ocho wrote: | I don't think anyone is remembered by their worst years. In terms of Kobe's place in history, it should be noted that even his most of his biggest detractors still have him as a Top 10 player All Time. |
the funny thing is the MJ is probably the most revered player of all time, and even HE gets a lot of unkind treatment and jokes regarding his wizard years. so for kobe, i'm just bracing for the reaction, if you know what i mean. he is nowhere near as universally loved as MJ....people are going to really dig in on these later years. it's going to be rough. |
Yeah. And I think it would be unfair. But for a devastating injury I think Kobe finishes his career better than the guys I listed. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | ocho wrote: | I don't think anyone is remembered by their worst years. In terms of Kobe's place in history, it should be noted that even his most of his biggest detractors still have him as a Top 10 player All Time. |
the funny thing is the MJ is probably the most revered player of all time, and even HE gets a lot of unkind treatment and jokes regarding his wizard years. so for kobe, i'm just bracing for the reaction, if you know what i mean. he is nowhere near as universally loved as MJ....people are going to really dig in on these later years. it's going to be rough. |
Yeah. And I think it would be unfair. But for a devastating injury I think Kobe finishes his career better than the guys I listed. |
i think so too |
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dries Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 711
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Can't wait to see the result of kobe working out his lower body this summer. He seemed very optimistic about his legs in interviews. |
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thejet24 Star Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2007 Posts: 3020
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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dries wrote: | Can't wait to see the result of kobe working out his lower body this summer. He seemed very optimistic about his legs in interviews. |
Dont think the shoulder will be an issue. He'll be rusty at the start but around Christmas he should be fine.
Solid 20/5/5 numbers with 43-46 FG%. Not a lot players do that. _________________ 2008-2010 Finals. 28.9 PTS 6.1 REB 5.4 AST 2.1 STLs |
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ReaListik Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 6553
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe is one of the most despised athletes of all time, except in China. He has always been a "I'll do what I want, when I want, because I believe in myself and what I'm doing. If you don't like who I am then (bleep) off." I love this approach to not just basketball, but to life. People who are followers of the latest fad or idiots just don't like Kobe. They will treat him terrible in the history books and continue to attack in the MJ vs Kobe discussion. Bottomline is anyone who knows basketball knows Kobe's been one of the greatest ever. _________________ "We are the goodest." - Shaq ESPN interview |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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ReaListik wrote: | Kobe is one of the most despised athletes of all time, except in China. He has always been a "I'll do what I want, when I want, because I believe in myself and what I'm doing. If you don't like who I am then (bleep) off." I love this approach to not just basketball, but to life. People who are followers of the latest fad or idiots just don't like Kobe. They will treat him terrible in the history books and continue to attack in the MJ vs Kobe discussion. Bottomline is anyone who knows basketball knows Kobe's been one of the greatest ever. |
Yup.
The basketball world does not hesitate to say Jordan was the greatest. And I'm saying Kobe is better than he was. In just about every way except for a few very specific things, mostly related to advantages of having huge hands. that is it. This idea that Jordan is #1 and Kobe may or may not be top 10 is a little too extreme. If we disregard the accolades and the stats and the hype, and just focus on skillsets, i don't think there was any greater than Kobe. And even the accolades stand up but the numbers give people an opportunity to bring kobe down for no real good reason. |
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Surfitall Star Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2002 Posts: 3829 Location: South Orange County
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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I remember watching Dr. J in his final years and wondering as a youngster, "He's ok, he has a cool name, but he isn't that great." I wish I could have seen him in his prime. Youngsters may say that about Kobe, they may not. We'll have to see how Kobe does this year, but I don't expect it to be worse than that. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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ReaListik wrote: | Kobe is one of the most despised athletes of all time, except in China. He has always been a "I'll do what I want, when I want, because I believe in myself and what I'm doing. If you don't like who I am then (bleep) off." I love this approach to not just basketball, but to life. People who are followers of the latest fad or idiots just don't like Kobe. They will treat him terrible in the history books and continue to attack in the MJ vs Kobe discussion. Bottomline is anyone who knows basketball knows Kobe's been one of the greatest ever. |
He's also been one of the most loved though.
Truly polarizing. |
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Agent P Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jul 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Twin Falls, ID
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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If his legs are healthy and strong like he says, I can see him playing really well this year and then wanting another shot next year too. I'll never count Vino out. |
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Vin Star Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2013 Posts: 6005 Location: France
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Part of me thinks he's done but another part of me still hope he can still produce at a high level with the young guys. |
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Nobody Star Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 5721 Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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The answer to your question is actually a question: Who gives a flying (bleep) about Jordan's stint with the Wizards? That's right... nobody. |
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999 Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 20266
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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compared to lebron the media has been unkind to kobe his entire career |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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LAKERSCMXCIX wrote: | compared to lebron the media has been unkind to kobe his entire career |
well this is true. |
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LandsbergerRules Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | LAKERSCMXCIX wrote: | compared to lebron the media has been unkind to kobe his entire career |
well this is true. |
I think the media loved Kobe when he first came to the league. When Shaq began to see him as a threat and let the media know is when it started to change. And then when the Colorado thing happened, the media took it up a notch. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody wrote: | The answer to your question is actually a question: Who gives a flying (bleep) about Jordan's stint with the Wizards? That's right... nobody. |
Yes, but there is one caveat with Kobe. For the people who want him to contend for GOAT status in the broad consensus, it hurts that he didn't stay healthy enough to make a run at some of the major career records. It also hurts a little that he didn't win another ring or two, but I don't think that would have made as much difference as some people think. If he had somehow stayed healthy enough to challenge KAJ's career scoring mark, that might have meant something.
But otherwise, he reached his spot in the hierarchy around 2011 or so, whatever you think that spot may be. He hasn't advanced, but he hasn't lost ground either. Even if he flat out sucks this year, he won't go backwards. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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LandsbergerRules wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | LAKERSCMXCIX wrote: | compared to lebron the media has been unkind to kobe his entire career |
well this is true. |
I think the media loved Kobe when he first came to the league. When Shaq began to see him as a threat and let the media know is when it started to change. And then when the Colorado thing happened, the media took it up a notch. |
this is also true.
i think there's something that also happened when he started threatening MJ's legacy. There was a time after 2003 or so when I started realizing that Kobe was better than MJ. And that didn't sit well with a lot of people. Most fans will not ever consider questioning MJ as the GOAT. but the more i saw Kobe, the more I became convinced that not only is he better, but significantly better. if i ever go through the forums, i think i can even see how i came to this conclusions. i've learned that the media likes to compare the up and coming stars to MJ, but they just can't ever admit if someone is actually better. that's why lebron is great for the media. he is clearly not better than mj or kobe or anyone like that, but his numbers allow a lot of talk of the comparisons. but in kobe's case, all they can do is come up with reasons why he is not better. but he is. |
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Tony Anapolis Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2015 Posts: 3331
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I would have to say realistically Kobe was probably the best player in the world 12 out of his 19 years. There have been all time greats that careers have only been 12-13 years. The man was/is a machine.
People forget Jordan was chucking up around 23 shots a game at a point in Washington. I am interested to see how Kobe goes out. 20/5/5 and finish 10th-8th in the west would be a great finish to a rare career. |
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