Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: Volt: MJ vs. Hakeem
Really fun game. Hotly contested, high emotions. I was watching this and thinking how much I miss the pre-zone days. Look how they're able to move around the court with the open space. So great.
Some notes:
--MJ gets pissed and tries to exert his will in the 4th. His tenacity is frightening to see, beautiful. Imagine Kobe with these rules, my god.
--Pippen is just an athletic freak of nature.
--So is Maxwell!! I feel like that this guy would be a top tier max superstar today.
--Hakeem blocks the s--- out of MJ's potential game winner. oh yea.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
I'm not saying that Ewing was at Hakeem's level, but Ewing was in his prime when he got eliminated several times by Jordan's Bulls.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
Jordan used to say that Vernon Maxwell was who gave him the most fits. I would have loved to see that Rockets team with maxwell on Jordan at the top and Olajuwon helping out downlow. Too bad Jordan retired the two years that Houston got out of the West
Jordan used to say that Vernon Maxwell was who gave him the most fits. I would have loved to see that Rockets team with maxwell on Jordan at the top and Olajuwon helping out downlow. Too bad Jordan retired the two years that Houston got out of the West
Oh really! I didn't know that! That's fascinating.
Going back and watching him now, it's really interesting. Especially in that highlight, where he's actually playing vs Jordan, he seems to be mimicking MJ on a couple of those moves. Like the one handed layup thing, that's a total MJ move (or Dr J). and I wonder if he's crazy (he is) and thinking I'm going to show Jordan up with his OWN moves, or something like that. He's really athletic, a great shooter, and kind of nuts, so I can see that giving Jordan trouble. Maybe more trouble than a Dumars, which is always the name that comes up....Maxwell was more of an offensitve threat, and athletically, more annoying for Jordan to deal with. Anyway, that's a very interesting nugget i didn't know about.
Jordan used to say that Vernon Maxwell was who gave him the most fits. I would have loved to see that Rockets team with maxwell on Jordan at the top and Olajuwon helping out downlow. Too bad Jordan retired the two years that Houston got out of the West
Oh really! I didn't know that! That's fascinating.
Going back and watching him now, it's really interesting. Especially in that highlight, where he's actually playing vs Jordan, he seems to be mimicking MJ on a couple of those moves. Like the one handed layup thing, that's a total MJ move (or Dr J). and I wonder if he's crazy (he is) and thinking I'm going to show Jordan up with his OWN moves, or something like that. He's really athletic, a great shooter, and kind of nuts, so I can see that giving Jordan trouble. Maybe more trouble than a Dumars, which is always the name that comes up....Maxwell was more of an offensitve threat, and athletically, more annoying for Jordan to deal with. Anyway, that's a very interesting nugget i didn't know about.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
but I agree, people got cheated out of a Jordan vs Hakeem finals matchup, the same way we never got to see Kobe vs Lebron. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
but I agree, people got cheated out of a Jordan vs Hakeem finals matchup, the same way we never got to see Kobe vs Lebron.
what you are saying is not true. it's all about matchups. MJ's kryptonite would be a guy like hakeem, he's fortunate to not have to play him in the playoffs. hakeem's kryptonite is not necessarily MJ, though, so it's just a matchup thing. look at the 2000 playoffs that we're so familiar with...that portland team (even the sac team the following years) were good enough to win a championship. they just were dealing with an unusually powerful laker team that happened to be in the same conference and peaking simultaneously. it's really quite some bad luck for them (depressing for their fans, i'm sure). i agree, especially after seeing the footage, that hakeem could possibly have beaten the bulls in the finals, if given the chance. he really matches up well with them...they have no center!! and as the poster above said, maxwell was supposedly a very difficult matchup for jordan. jordan has such a paul buyan thing going on, it sounds crazy to even think that anyone could beat him...but you just had to be there maybe. jordan was great, but until the last threepeat, he wasn't an unbeatable guy that he is now believed to be. people now think that regardless of the teammates, jordan would win every playoff series. it's just not true.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
but I agree, people got cheated out of a Jordan vs Hakeem finals matchup, the same way we never got to see Kobe vs Lebron.
what you are saying is not true. it's all about matchups. MJ's kryptonite would be a guy like hakeem, he's fortunate to not have to play him in the playoffs. hakeem's kryptonite is not necessarily MJ, though, so it's just a matchup thing. look at the 2000 playoffs that we're so familiar with...that portland team (even the sac team the following years) were good enough to win a championship. they just were dealing with an unusually powerful laker team that happened to be in the same conference and peaking simultaneously. it's really quite some bad luck for them (depressing for their fans, i'm sure). i agree, especially after seeing the footage, that hakeem could possibly have beaten the bulls in the finals, if given the chance. he really matches up well with them...they have no center!! and as the poster above said, maxwell was supposedly a very difficult matchup for jordan. jordan has such a paul buyan thing going on, it sounds crazy to even think that anyone could beat him...but you just had to be there maybe. jordan was great, but until the last threepeat, he wasn't an unbeatable guy that he is now believed to be. people now think that regardless of the teammates, jordan would win every playoff series. it's just not true.
there was a reason why majority of the pundits regarded Jordan the GOAT just a few years removed from witnessing the golden era of the NBA with Magic and Bird. It was almost as if people suddenly forgot Magic and Bird even existed.
Jordan was a killer, and the 1st 3peat was his peak, physically and mentally. I watched the 1st 3peat years, and no one could've beaten Jordan at his peak at that time. And then, there was Scottie Pippen. That tandem was probably close to watching Kobe and Lebron play on the same team, with both guys in their primes... I can't imagine Hakeem, Otis Thorpe and even Maxwell (lol) beat Jordan and Pip at their primes. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 3079 Location: Portugal
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:48 am Post subject:
Drifts wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Drifts wrote:
Telleris wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Drifts wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
but I agree, people got cheated out of a Jordan vs Hakeem finals matchup, the same way we never got to see Kobe vs Lebron.
what you are saying is not true. it's all about matchups. MJ's kryptonite would be a guy like hakeem, he's fortunate to not have to play him in the playoffs. hakeem's kryptonite is not necessarily MJ, though, so it's just a matchup thing. look at the 2000 playoffs that we're so familiar with...that portland team (even the sac team the following years) were good enough to win a championship. they just were dealing with an unusually powerful laker team that happened to be in the same conference and peaking simultaneously. it's really quite some bad luck for them (depressing for their fans, i'm sure). i agree, especially after seeing the footage, that hakeem could possibly have beaten the bulls in the finals, if given the chance. he really matches up well with them...they have no center!! and as the poster above said, maxwell was supposedly a very difficult matchup for jordan. jordan has such a paul buyan thing going on, it sounds crazy to even think that anyone could beat him...but you just had to be there maybe. jordan was great, but until the last threepeat, he wasn't an unbeatable guy that he is now believed to be. people now think that regardless of the teammates, jordan would win every playoff series. it's just not true.
there was a reason why majority of the pundits regarded Jordan the GOAT just a few years removed from witnessing the golden era of the NBA with Magic and Bird. It was almost as if people suddenly forgot Magic and Bird even existed.
Jordan was a killer, and the 1st 3peat was his peak, physically and mentally. I watched the 1st 3peat years, and no one could've beaten Jordan at his peak at that time. And then, there was Scottie Pippen. That tandem was probably close to watching Kobe and Lebron play on the same team, with both guys in their primes... I can't imagine Hakeem, Otis Thorpe and even Maxwell (lol) beat Jordan and Pip at their primes.
Count Maxwell out, he was the JR Smith of his time. Totally inconsistent and difficult to coach. And never saw a shot he didn't like.
Thorpe (not in the 1995 champion team, traded for Drexler) was not better than Horace.
Kenny Smith was a lowsy PG, and par wiith BJ.
Horry cannot be compared to Pippen.
Hakeem would kill Cartwright, Perdue, Scott Williams and whoever came in the way, of course.
But, as said, Ewing, Parish, Daugherty (add Seikaly) and even Shaq later on (after MJ's return to full form), could not stop the Bulls. _________________ -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
2:33 Hakeem guards Jordan. No other center in NBA history could guard Jordan like that. Amazing player. Hakeem is #1 all time in blocks, #8 in steals, #9 in points, and #12 in rebounds. He is the most versatile player ever. _________________ "Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise."
2:33 Hakeem guards Jordan. No other center in NBA history could guard Jordan like that. Amazing player. Hakeem is #1 all time in blocks, #8 in steals, #9 in points, and #12 in rebounds. He is the most versatile player ever.
The defense he played on Jordan was awesome. However, Anthony Davis could probably do the same, or better.
Jordan used to say that Vernon Maxwell was who gave him the most fits. I would have loved to see that Rockets team with maxwell on Jordan at the top and Olajuwon helping out downlow. Too bad Jordan retired the two years that Houston got out of the West
Oh really! I didn't know that! That's fascinating.
Going back and watching him now, it's really interesting. Especially in that highlight, where he's actually playing vs Jordan, he seems to be mimicking MJ on a couple of those moves. Like the one handed layup thing, that's a total MJ move (or Dr J). and I wonder if he's crazy (he is) and thinking I'm going to show Jordan up with his OWN moves, or something like that. He's really athletic, a great shooter, and kind of nuts, so I can see that giving Jordan trouble. Maybe more trouble than a Dumars, which is always the name that comes up....Maxwell was more of an offensitve threat, and athletically, more annoying for Jordan to deal with. Anyway, that's a very interesting nugget i didn't know about.
If you have NBAtv, you might wanna search for that Clutch City show they did recently. Maxwell was unhinged, man. He had a habit of spitting wads onto the floor after calls he didn't like. He said he did that at Seattle one night and Hakeem told him to show some respect to which Max guffed off, to which Hak smacked him upside the head. They showed a clip of Vern doing it. Truly weird sh. He left the team in 95 because he was miffed about Drexler taking his role from the previous year away from him. Vern seemed to have some of that early Artest sh in him, or vice versa. That emotional kinda krazy that eventually had them both running up into the stands after fans. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject:
non-player zealot wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
Jordan used to say that Vernon Maxwell was who gave him the most fits. I would have loved to see that Rockets team with maxwell on Jordan at the top and Olajuwon helping out downlow. Too bad Jordan retired the two years that Houston got out of the West
Oh really! I didn't know that! That's fascinating.
Going back and watching him now, it's really interesting. Especially in that highlight, where he's actually playing vs Jordan, he seems to be mimicking MJ on a couple of those moves. Like the one handed layup thing, that's a total MJ move (or Dr J). and I wonder if he's crazy (he is) and thinking I'm going to show Jordan up with his OWN moves, or something like that. He's really athletic, a great shooter, and kind of nuts, so I can see that giving Jordan trouble. Maybe more trouble than a Dumars, which is always the name that comes up....Maxwell was more of an offensitve threat, and athletically, more annoying for Jordan to deal with. Anyway, that's a very interesting nugget i didn't know about.
If you have NBAtv, you might wanna search for that Clutch City show they did recently. Maxwell was unhinged, man. He had a habit of spitting wads onto the floor after calls he didn't like. He said he did that at Seattle one night and Hakeem told him to show some respect to which Max guffed off, to which Hak smacked him upside the head. They showed a clip of Vern doing it. Truly weird sh. He left the team in 95 because he was miffed about Drexler taking his role from the previous year away from him. Vern seemed to have some of that early Artest sh in him, or vice versa. That emotional kinda krazy that
eventually had them both running up into the stands after fans.
Unsure about the Maxwell stuff, but Jordan is on record stating Dumars was his toughest defender. Personally, I thought Payton was the toughest Jordan defender
Jordan used to say that Vernon Maxwell was who gave him the most fits. I would have loved to see that Rockets team with maxwell on Jordan at the top and Olajuwon helping out downlow. Too bad Jordan retired the two years that Houston got out of the West
Oh really! I didn't know that! That's fascinating.
Going back and watching him now, it's really interesting. Especially in that highlight, where he's actually playing vs Jordan, he seems to be mimicking MJ on a couple of those moves. Like the one handed layup thing, that's a total MJ move (or Dr J). and I wonder if he's crazy (he is) and thinking I'm going to show Jordan up with his OWN moves, or something like that. He's really athletic, a great shooter, and kind of nuts, so I can see that giving Jordan trouble. Maybe more trouble than a Dumars, which is always the name that comes up....Maxwell was more of an offensitve threat, and athletically, more annoying for Jordan to deal with. Anyway, that's a very interesting nugget i didn't know about.
If you have NBAtv, you might wanna search for that Clutch City show they did recently. Maxwell was unhinged, man. He had a habit of spitting wads onto the floor after calls he didn't like. He said he did that at Seattle one night and Hakeem told him to show some respect to which Max guffed off, to which Hak smacked him upside the head. They showed a clip of Vern doing it. Truly weird sh. He left the team in 95 because he was miffed about Drexler taking his role from the previous year away from him. Vern seemed to have some of that early Artest sh in him, or vice versa. That emotional kinda krazy that
eventually had them both running up into the stands after fans.
Unsure about the Maxwell stuff, but Jordan is on record stating Dumars was his toughest defender. Personally, I thought Payton was the toughest Jordan defender
I've heard that too, but I have also heard him say that about Maxwell. Dumars and the pistons definitely played the best team defense against Jordan.
I've also heard Barkley say Popeye Jones guarded him the best, so its not always the guy you think it is that is the best defensive matchup for a player.
I think part of what made Jordan hard to guard was his athleticism and size combination. Few people were strong enough, athletic enough, and big enough to challenge him. Look at all the big names he faced in the playoffs and they were either too small, too weak, or too slow. Mad Max was probably the only guy outside of Pippen that was all 3 of those things.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
but I agree, people got cheated out of a Jordan vs Hakeem finals matchup, the same way we never got to see Kobe vs Lebron.
what you are saying is not true. it's all about matchups. MJ's kryptonite would be a guy like hakeem, he's fortunate to not have to play him in the playoffs. hakeem's kryptonite is not necessarily MJ, though, so it's just a matchup thing. look at the 2000 playoffs that we're so familiar with...that portland team (even the sac team the following years) were good enough to win a championship. they just were dealing with an unusually powerful laker team that happened to be in the same conference and peaking simultaneously. it's really quite some bad luck for them (depressing for their fans, i'm sure). i agree, especially after seeing the footage, that hakeem could possibly have beaten the bulls in the finals, if given the chance. he really matches up well with them...they have no center!! and as the poster above said, maxwell was supposedly a very difficult matchup for jordan. jordan has such a paul buyan thing going on, it sounds crazy to even think that anyone could beat him...but you just had to be there maybe. jordan was great, but until the last threepeat, he wasn't an unbeatable guy that he is now believed to be. people now think that regardless of the teammates, jordan would win every playoff series. it's just not true.
there was a reason why majority of the pundits regarded Jordan the GOAT just a few years removed from witnessing the golden era of the NBA with Magic and Bird. It was almost as if people suddenly forgot Magic and Bird even existed.
Jordan was a killer, and the 1st 3peat was his peak, physically and mentally. I watched the 1st 3peat years, and no one could've beaten Jordan at his peak at that time. And then, there was Scottie Pippen. That tandem was probably close to watching Kobe and Lebron play on the same team, with both guys in their primes... I can't imagine Hakeem, Otis Thorpe and even Maxwell (lol) beat Jordan and Pip at their primes.
Count Maxwell out, he was the JR Smith of his time. Totally inconsistent and difficult to coach. And never saw a shot he didn't like.
Thorpe (not in the 1995 champion team, traded for Drexler) was not better than Horace.
Kenny Smith was a lowsy PG, and par wiith BJ.
Horry cannot be compared to Pippen.
Hakeem would kill Cartwright, Perdue, Scott Williams and whoever came in the way, of course.
But, as said, Ewing, Parish, Daugherty (add Seikaly) and even Shaq later on (after MJ's return to full form), could not stop the Bulls.
None of those guys held a candle to Hakeem defensively. Ewing was a good defensive player, but not on the same level.
Shaq was unable to beat the second 3-peat team, which no one is saying the Rockets would have beaten. Shaq isn't to blame for that at all.
If not for Gary Payton/Shawn Kemp being a matchup nightmare for the Rockets, we would have seen the matchup of the century. But alas, match-ups are a real thing, and the playoffs isn't necessarily about the best teams meeting each other in the finals.
Would've loved to see the 90's Bulls in the Finals vs. Hakeem, or any other great center. Somehow they ended up facing teams with Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Jim McIlvaine, & Greg Ostertag in the middle.
No kidding! So true! I try not to think about it. We were THIS close to seeing the Bulls play hakeem, but stockton made that amazing shot. I love that shot, but i think i would have loved bulls vs hakeem more. (even though it was old hakeem).
Here's something no one talks about with MJ, he never really beat a great center in the playoffs. I think it's somewhat unusual for a guy of his status. He played ewing i think when he was old, but no one like hakeem or anything. and i'd have to check, but even in the earlier rounds he never really went up against a great center. i think 1991 hakeem would really give MJ a run, and if they met in the finals, i'm not sure MJ's legacy would be what it is.
he did face Patrick Ewing, Shaquille Oneal, Robert Parish, then there's Bill Laimbeer, Brad Daugherty, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo...lol
good points. he had difficulty with the celtics and pistons.
I think i can still say MJ never faced a great team led by a center, at least not in the finals. isn't that why we were chomping at the bit for the bulls vs rockets?
i can make my point another way...MJ never beat a team in the playoffs that had or would go on to win a championship. hows that? you can say the pistons, that's it...it took him several tries for that one.
look at kobe...kobe had to repeatedly beat the spurs (multiple championships), celtics, dallas.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
but I agree, people got cheated out of a Jordan vs Hakeem finals matchup, the same way we never got to see Kobe vs Lebron.
what you are saying is not true. it's all about matchups. MJ's kryptonite would be a guy like hakeem, he's fortunate to not have to play him in the playoffs. hakeem's kryptonite is not necessarily MJ, though, so it's just a matchup thing. look at the 2000 playoffs that we're so familiar with...that portland team (even the sac team the following years) were good enough to win a championship. they just were dealing with an unusually powerful laker team that happened to be in the same conference and peaking simultaneously. it's really quite some bad luck for them (depressing for their fans, i'm sure). i agree, especially after seeing the footage, that hakeem could possibly have beaten the bulls in the finals, if given the chance. he really matches up well with them...they have no center!! and as the poster above said, maxwell was supposedly a very difficult matchup for jordan. jordan has such a paul buyan thing going on, it sounds crazy to even think that anyone could beat him...but you just had to be there maybe. jordan was great, but until the last threepeat, he wasn't an unbeatable guy that he is now believed to be. people now think that regardless of the teammates, jordan would win every playoff series. it's just not true.
there was a reason why majority of the pundits regarded Jordan the GOAT just a few years removed from witnessing the golden era of the NBA with Magic and Bird. It was almost as if people suddenly forgot Magic and Bird even existed.
Jordan was a killer, and the 1st 3peat was his peak, physically and mentally. I watched the 1st 3peat years, and no one could've beaten Jordan at his peak at that time. And then, there was Scottie Pippen. That tandem was probably close to watching Kobe and Lebron play on the same team, with both guys in their primes... I can't imagine Hakeem, Otis Thorpe and even Maxwell (lol) beat Jordan and Pip at their primes.
Count Maxwell out, he was the JR Smith of his time. Totally inconsistent and difficult to coach. And never saw a shot he didn't like.
Thorpe (not in the 1995 champion team, traded for Drexler) was not better than Horace.
Kenny Smith was a lowsy PG, and par wiith BJ.
Horry cannot be compared to Pippen.
Hakeem would kill Cartwright, Perdue, Scott Williams and whoever came in the way, of course.
But, as said, Ewing, Parish, Daugherty (add Seikaly) and even Shaq later on (after MJ's return to full form), could not stop the Bulls.
None of those guys held a candle to Hakeem defensively. Ewing was a good defensive player, but not on the same level.
Shaq was unable to beat the second 3-peat team, which no one is saying the Rockets would have beaten. Shaq isn't to blame for that at all.
If not for Gary Payton/Shawn Kemp being a matchup nightmare for the Rockets, we would have seen the matchup of the century. But alas, match-ups are a real thing, and the playoffs isn't necessarily about the best teams meeting each other in the finals.
yes true! see?? payton and kemp were bad for hakeem, and hakeem IMO was bad for MJ. it definitely would have been the greatest 90s finals if it happened, i don't know about the century!! it is intriguing listening to the news this summer talking about doing away with conferences or something. we never saw hakeem vs mj, and we didn't see lebron vs kobe that one year either. which is ok since the lakers got a ring that year, but still. lebron really po'd me that year by being his usual underwhelming self and cost us a greatly anticipated series, with the puppets and everything. instead we got kobe vs dwight. sheesh. the refs were even helping him towards the end big time, but IIRC rashard lewis was having the only good game of his life.
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good).
Hakeem would kill Cartwright, Perdue, Scott Williams and whoever came in the way, of course.
But, as said, Ewing, Parish, Daugherty (add Seikaly) and even Shaq later on (after MJ's return to full form), could not stop the Bulls.
None of those C's are Hakeem. The only one you have to double every time is Shaq, and he isn't the defender that Dream is. The problem the Bulls had with Houston was that no one could stop Hakeem, and he's one of the few C's that could drop 30-40 a night on you in a series. Sure, Jordan and Pippen were all world defenders but we didn't run our offense through our wings. You either stop Hakeem from scoring or you double/triple and give guys open shots. The Bulls had no one to stop Hakeem. On the flip side, they had no one to make him work on the other end, so you're allowing arguably the best help defender since Russell to chill and cut off everything inside. It's not like when we played the Sonics who had a C to pull Hakeem out the paint. A series vs Chicago would arguably be the easiest matchup he faced in 94 or 95, or one of them. World of difference from having to score on Ewing, Robinson or Shaq and hold them at the other end. Another issue is we were weak defensively at PG and Chicago didn't have a team to exploit that. Our defenders at the 2 and 3 were solid enough to make guys work with Hakeem as the anchor, and he's the ultimate anchor holding the likes of Bill Cartwright. That's the main thing that stands out in the video....the help defense Dream could provide because he doesn't have to pay attention to any of their bigs.
The Knicks got to 7 vs Chicago with Ewing, and he's no Dream on either side of the ball. Basketball is about matchups....
If they'd met 5 nba finals in a row (91-95), Houston would have won 3-2 or even 4-1, if they'd met 96-98, Chicago would have won 3-0.
there was a reason Houston couldn't make it to the finals before Jordan retired, it was that they weren't really that good... and if Jordan had not retired, I don't think the 94-95 Houston can beat Jordan and Scottie (even without Horace)
You have to remember Horry wasn't drafted until 93 (and he didn't turn the corner until the failed Elliott trade in 94 because he didn't wanna shoot) and Cassell wasn't drafted until 94. They were very important pieces for a team that only had one star player. I have no doubts the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan. It's laughable to suggest that they would lose to the Bulls without Jordan though.
As far as the C's Jordan faced, he faced plenty of great C's getting to the Finals. Ewing, Shaq and Mourning. Smits and Laimbeer as well (not great but good).
I give Hakeem a good chance of beating Jordan and Pippen, but in the end, Bulls win. Won't be easy though, Hakeem was a monster those 2 years. But that would make Jordan just want to beat him more, to show he was even better.
Sad that Jordan's gambling problem got in the way of that dream matchup. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
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