The Stockton/Malone duo sets an awfully high bar to surpass. So far, Westy and Durant are on a very similar trajectory, towards the same level.
you think? They don't complement each other very well, that i see. Stockton and malone were extremely complementary players. malone wasn't a ball dominant guy, durant and westbrook both are. Isn't that the problem everyone talks about with them? It's a real confusing situation...there are times where it's hard (as a coach) to figure out who should have the ball. I just don't think they will get anywhere near the kind of 'nother level success that stockton and malone had.
the only curious thing for me is that this new NBA is a little different in that you can succeed with two gaurds like that. Even though durant isn't a guard technically, he really is. Warriors were able to get a ring, so they can too. Still, i'd prefer to have a little bit more complementary players. If i were either of them, I'd consider going to another team with a better fit, if rings were my goal. but they're ok either way.
Well, I think Westbrook and Durant are highly complementary as teammates but there are differences when compared to Stockton-Malone. I look at Stockton as the feeder type PG and primarily a reliable counter-puncher as a scorer to Malone. Westbrook is the superior player of his duo, a better defender and better clutch player compared to Durant. Durant is a terrific player but he's overrated in pop media IMO; he's nearly the anti-clutch guy. Westbrook gets the nod IMO as having the tougher PG job, having to feed and score and rebound and defend as well as - if not better than - his partner. I think Durant shrinks from pressure; I don't blame that on his pairing with Westbrook.
Durant is not a guard, but he has good guard skills for a 6'10" man; he's the remake in a sense of Ralph Sampson, who also had good guard skills for a 7'4" man and was not a guard.
I don't know if I agree about highly complementary...especially compared to Stockton and Malone, which is almost the epitome of complementary players. You don't think you are overrating the durant/westbrook combo there?
No. I'd take Westbrook over Stockton in combination with any other player.
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:54 am Post subject:
To me, each is about an equivalent pairing within their respective eras. I prefer the games of the two modern players (individually and jointly) to that of the two Jazz players.
Pick and Roll BB is boring to me, so I devalue its worth too.
In today's game, the PF has more responsibility for deep perimeter shooting ability than Karl did in his time. Durant is not a combo forward in today's context, but he would have been in Karl's day. Can't really compare them head to head too well either. Advantage: slight shooting advantage to KD.
Stockton was a tremendous lead guard for offenses built around the PnR, but he could be overwhelmed as an on-ball defender fairly easily by half of the starting lead guards of his day. He got some undeserved recognition for defensive tenacity when it was really just holding and grabbing that he was permitted as the league's premier white player. Westbrook can defend his position far better than Stockton ever did, and perhaps he can adequately defend just about any starting guard in today's game. Advantage: RW.
Combined as pairings, Stockton and Malone were amazing. I think the sum worked better than either part would in other player pairings. I don't sense that same synergy building between Westbrook and Durant, but then again each of them can get their own shot from many floor areas without the need of the other. Each modern player is probably slightly better in transition and half court as scorers and defenders than the 90's era guys. Advantage: RW and KD.
It's awfully close. Both are deserving of labels for being superior pairings of their eras.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:18 am Post subject:
I may be a godless heathen, but I tend to find Stockton a bit overrated. Great player no doubt, incredible longevity, but the numbers had a lot to do with their structure and him having the ball all the time.
I may be a godless heathen, but I tend to find Stockton a bit overrated. Great player no doubt, incredible longevity, but the numbers had a lot to do with their structure and him having the ball all the time.
It's weird getting to an age where I see the luster of time added to guys that I remember very clearly. Stockton was a stud, but he's absolutely overrated at this point. And to your point regarding numbers, Utah's score-keepers have always been notoriously generous in giving out assists. It's the only stat in the box score that's subjective, governed by the fuzzy standard of "pass that leads to a made basket."
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject:
24 wrote:
I may be a godless heathen, but I tend to find Stockton a bit overrated. Great player no doubt, incredible longevity, but the numbers had a lot to do with their structure and him having the ball all the time.
What do you think of Deron Williams? Many on this board once considered him to be above Chris Paul, but since leaving Utah he's fallen off. Obviously injuries and age are a factor, but I suspect part of it is that Sloan had a stat-inflating system. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject:
CandyCanes wrote:
24 wrote:
I may be a godless heathen, but I tend to find Stockton a bit overrated. Great player no doubt, incredible longevity, but the numbers had a lot to do with their structure and him having the ball all the time.
What do you think of Deron Williams? Many on this board once considered him to be above Chris Paul, but since leaving Utah he's fallen off. Obviously injuries and age are a factor, but I suspect part of it is that Sloan had a stat-inflating system.
That's part of it, but it also has to do with injuries, and the reason he left, because he wanted more freedom.
Westbrook and Durant are not really a tandem, just two highly talented players who take turns scoring on the same team
Yea, i totally agree. i feel this point is really being overlooked in this discussion. it's turned into more of a "which two players are independently better?" discussion. It's like saying Kobe and MJ are better than magic and kareem. But i don't think that was the intent of the initial question.
westbrook and durant just don't fit together. The way they play, it's basically taking turns doing the same kinds of things. Durant shoots a little more, westbrook drives a little more, but overall very overlapping in what they both do.
boy, karl malone's legacy has taken a beating. He's already unfairly taken down the great power forwards list because of Duncan's ridiculous PF gimmick. And now Durant is a better forward? What??! Durant is a better guard than Malone, but forward? puh-lease. this is why i get banned.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:16 pm Post subject:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
Westbrook and Durant are not really a tandem, just two highly talented players who take turns scoring on the same team
Yea, i totally agree. i feel this point is really being overlooked in this discussion. it's turned into more of a "which two players are independently better?" discussion. It's like saying Kobe and MJ are better than magic and kareem. But i don't think that was the intent of the initial question.
westbrook and durant just don't fit together. The way they play, it's basically taking turns doing the same kinds of things. Durant shoots a little more, westbrook drives a little more, but overall very overlapping in what they both do.
boy, karl malone's legacy has taken a beating. He's already unfairly taken down the great power forwards list because of Duncan's ridiculous PF gimmick. And now Durant is a better forward? What??! Durant is a better guard than Malone, but forward? puh-lease. this is why i get banned.
Yes, Stockton and Malone were on another level together in the two man game in terms of reading the defense as well as reading each other.
I think RW/KD are indeed a feeder/scorer tandem in each direction; Westbrook averages over 7 apg in his Thunder career, and Durant nearly 4 per game. They use each other well, which is not to say their mutual successes are as highly interconnected at Stockton-Malone, one of the most exaggerated pairings in this sense of all time.
And Westbrook's play is not comprised of the same "Iverson tilt" of assists and FGA/game averages. In AI's prime he averaged over 24 FGA per game. Westbrook is averaging 17 FGA / game, even after last year's roster depletion. Westbrook shares the ball, he scores, but I'd agree his primary focus is not Rondo-esque (of a set up man for others.)
Well, the RW/KD usage rate compared to Malone/Stockon is pretty crazy too. Seems like two scorers while Malone/Stockon were more complementary. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:17 am Post subject:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline.
Harden's kind of an alpha too. But a dwight/ibaka combo is pretty interesting. No layups, lol. westbrook is one of the few players that has that ability do more during those championship moments, so he's valuable that way. harden, so far, hasn't shown that...in fact, he's botched it more often than not. And durant is ok, getting better at it...not as good as westbrook.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:27 pm Post subject:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline.
Harden's kind of an alpha too. But a dwight/ibaka combo is pretty interesting. No layups, lol. westbrook is one of the few players that has that ability do more during those championship moments, so he's valuable that way. harden, so far, hasn't shown that...in fact, he's botched it more often than not. And durant is ok, getting better at it...not as good as westbrook.
Harden's an elite scorer, but I don't think a team can win a championship with him as its best player.
Tough between Westbrook and Durant. Westbrook has much more of a killer instinct than Durant, but Durant is just such a rare and impactful player. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline.
That would all make sense, given the jump in Harden's play and the huge jump in revenues. However, at the time they traded primarily for salary reasons -- he wanted the max and they didn't want to pay him that much. And given that Howard makes $5-8 million a year more than Westbrook or Durant, his salary would have been hard for them to fit in too.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:14 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline.
That would all make sense, given the jump in Harden's play and the huge jump in revenues. However, at the time they traded primarily for salary reasons -- he wanted the max and they didn't want to pay him that much. And given that Howard makes $5-8 million a year more than Westbrook or Durant, his salary would have been hard for them to fit in too.
Now that they've re-signed Kanter, aren't they basically paying the same or even more than they would have with Harden? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:39 am Post subject:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline.
That would all make sense, given the jump in Harden's play and the huge jump in revenues. However, at the time they traded primarily for salary reasons -- he wanted the max and they didn't want to pay him that much. And given that Howard makes $5-8 million a year more than Westbrook or Durant, his salary would have been hard for them to fit in too.
Now that they've re-signed Kanter, aren't they basically paying the same or even more than they would have with Harden?
I reckon so, but there's a bunch of moving pieces.
NBA history is filled with records of overpaid-yet-only-decent centers, so paying Kanter is less of an atypical franchise gamble, compared to paying big monies to a third wing.
The other side of it is that now the ownership/mgmt of the Thunder has the benefit of a three year experience without Harden - with no Finals appearances since. Harden had struggled against Miami so OKC seemed were willing to gamble on that direction with Ibaka rather than Harden. Some observers would think the Thunder made a mistake in focusing on Ibaka (and Perkins) rather than Harden and Green. Frankly, the young Harden was no great shakes as a defender and the team seemed to not need a third and fouth big scorer as much as they might need a premium pair of interior defenders.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:59 am Post subject:
They effectively traded BOTH Harden and Green for Perkins.
Imagine this:
Westbrook
Harden
Jeff Green
Ibaka
Dwight
Wilkes52 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I think OKC traded the wrong guy when they dealt Harden. Westbrook, or even Durant, was the one they should have traded. Harden's a natural #2 guy, the Durant and Westbrook are alphas.
Should have dealt Westbrook (or even Durant) straight-up for Dwight. Paired with Ibaka, that would have been a dominant defensive duo, even after Dwight's injury-induced decline.
That would all make sense, given the jump in Harden's play and the huge jump in revenues. However, at the time they traded primarily for salary reasons -- he wanted the max and they didn't want to pay him that much. And given that Howard makes $5-8 million a year more than Westbrook or Durant, his salary would have been hard for them to fit in too.
Now that they've re-signed Kanter, aren't they basically paying the same or even more than they would have with Harden?
I reckon so, but there's a bunch of moving pieces.
NBA history is filled with records of overpaid-yet-only-decent centers, so paying Kanter is less of an atypical franchise gamble, compared to paying big monies to a third wing.
The other side of it is that now the ownership/mgmt of the Thunder has the benefit of a three year experience without Harden - with no Finals appearances since. Harden had struggled against Miami so OKC seemed were willing to gamble on that direction with Ibaka rather than Harden. Some observers would think the Thunder made a mistake in focusing on Ibaka (and Perkins) rather than Harden and Green. Frankly, the young Harden was no great shakes as a defender and the team seemed to not need a third and fouth big scorer as much as they might need a premium pair of interior defenders.
Stockton and Malone were near perfect complements to each other. If Durant and Westbrook were that, they would've won multiple championships already, because talent-wise, they outmatch Stockton and Malone.
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:19 pm Post subject:
Both tandems in my mind are about the same. Both are extremely talented, Malone and Stockton are more fundamental, and Durant and Westbrook are more dynamic. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20.
Malone is probably the 2nd best PF of all time and Stockton is probably Top 3 PGs.
I agree, Malone is the 2nd highest all-time scorer in the game and Stockton holds the assists record all-time if I'm not mistaken. And both players were excellent defenders and these two players have reached the finals more times than the other two players as well.
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