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| Do you agree with SI ranking Kobe #54? |
| Sounds about right. |
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29% |
[ 25 ] |
| Should be lower: Somewhere between 1-53. |
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39% |
[ 34 ] |
| Should be higher: Somewhere between 55-100. |
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10% |
[ 9 ] |
| I would not rank him in the top 100. |
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20% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 86 |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
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 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| The rating is fine if this is the expected top 100 most impactful players on the court for the season. Kobe has been recovering from injuries the last few years. Its on him to show that next season won't be like last. Its actually an exciting prospect, the thought of him proving them wrong. |
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golaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Who cares.
If Kobe played 2nd or 3rd fiddle on a championship caliber team (Spurs, Cavs), and averaged something like 25mpg and 18ppg on 47% shooting, they'd probably rank him in the high 20's (most intelligent people here know that wouldn't happen), but I'm just saying that it's all conditional when it comes to the media and their awards/rankings.
The way he gunned last year and the way it ended, he deserves the ranking he got.
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Voices
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Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
Career achievements is how he got to #54. The bizarre synopsis given incredibly goes on to explain why he shouldn't be ranked at all. |
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Voices
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Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
We all know Kobe is not the super elite player he once was but he is still a dynamic talent which is verified by his career numbers.
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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Voices
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
Career achievements is how he got to #54. The bizarre synopsis given incredibly goes on to explain why he shouldn't be ranked at all. |
Are you saying that Kobe is not any longer NBA talent?
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ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
Career achievements is how he got to #54. The bizarre synopsis given incredibly goes on to explain why he shouldn't be ranked at all. |
Are you saying that Kobe is not any longer NBA talent? |
In the top 100 is what they meant I believe by "not ranked at all". |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
We all know Kobe is not the super elite player he once was but he is still a dynamic talent which is verified by his career numbers. |
No, he's not. But people like to think he is because they're holding on to the past. But for purposes of THIS list, his past is irrelevant and only his future matters.
Career numbers are irrelevant. This isn't a GOAT ranking. It's top ranked players going in to the 2015 season.
He played like one of the worst starting players in the league last year and he's a year older and was just cleared to shoot. Defensively, I don't think he was even in the top 50 among SHOOTING GUARDS last year.
That they would say he's anywhere NEAR the top 50 is more than kind at this point. But we'll take it. Let's just not get in to this game of well, if we take out injuries, and factor in what he did a decade ago, and then, add this factor and remove that factor well, then that's how we get him a better ranking. 54th is fair if not generous. Kobe won't even be playing back to backs and they'll probably have to manage his minutes so he can last the season. That doesn't sound like a shoe-in for top 50 players to me. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
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golaker
Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2010
Posts: 2557
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
We all know Kobe is not the super elite player he once was but he is still a dynamic talent which is verified by his career numbers. |
No, he's not. But people like to think he is because they're holding on to the past. But for purposes of THIS list, his past is irrelevant and only his future matters.
Career numbers are irrelevant. This isn't a GOAT ranking. It's top ranked players going in to the 2015 season.
He played like one of the worst starting players in the league last year and he's a year older and was just cleared to shoot. Defensively, I don't think he was even in the top 50 among SHOOTING GUARDS last year.
That they would say he's anywhere NEAR the top 50 is more than kind at this point. But we'll take it. Let's just not get in to this game of well, if we take out injuries, and factor in what he did a decade ago, and then, add this factor and remove that factor well, then that's how we get him a better ranking. 54th is fair if not generous. Kobe won't even be playing back to backs and they'll probably have to manage his minutes so he can last the season. That doesn't sound like a shoe-in for top 50 players to me. |
What? Who in this thread said Kobe deserves a high ranking because of his career achievements?
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Maybe you think it's completely innocent. Maybe you don't. But there's no denying that what the rule book says means a lot less than what the NBA wants at any given moment. -Tim Donaghy |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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54 is generous. For context, he's one spot behind Tony Parker and 6 ahead of DERRICK ROSE.
That last one is crazy. 4 years ago this dude was the MVP. And he's only 26. Now he's in role player country with Batum and Parsons. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Being able to play actual NBA games is important. 1 on 1 skills are not the criteria here.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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70sdude
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Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 4567
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Voices wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Voices wrote: | | Without taking health into consideration Kobe is much better than top 50 ranking. Kobe like MJ are better than most players their junior. Keep in mind that Kobe can still beat any other guard off the dribble and if Kobe was only a pg he would be better than most NBA pg, he is an outstanding passer. Because he was such a prolific scorer his passing ability is overlooked. Top 50 is not an insult I just think he is better than most NBA guards, and guards are the most important position in todays NBA. |
If you looked only at career achievements among active players, Kobe should probably be ranked #1. |
We all know Kobe is not the super elite player he once was but he is still a dynamic talent which is verified by his career numbers. |
Though his career numbers are great, they don't suggest he is still a dynamic talent. His career arc suggests he's at the end, crawling back for another season.
The entire issue is his age, his debilitations, the notable cumulative wear and tear on his body, his three year history of injuries. There's a well known pattern in the NBA of older wing players never returning from repeated injury to anything close to high impact form with those kinda miles on them.
He is a unique guy - very driven and very knowledgeable about his body - but no one knows whether he is still a dynamic talent or not. |
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deal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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In any case Kobe could be ranked worst, he really sad hasn't done much in the past few seasons.
The "if he's healthy thing" is only one big IF, plus he's way older...
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BstMde83
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| :lol Comedy. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Being able to play actual NBA games is important. 1 on 1 skills are not the criteria here. |
Yup. Swaggy would probably be All NBA level in 1v1. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | Ok fine...if you factor all the age issues, and value, and longevity, ok you can put 53 people in front. But how many of those 53 can beat a 37 year old kobe (healthy) 1on1? If they can't, are they really better? Or are they just younger or something?
For example, I've seen people describe it like this...if they aren't sure if Kobe can stay healthy over the course of the season, they rank him lower. But I never think like that...i just think about one game. If he's healthy over the course of the one game, but still old, I still feel he's better than most of those guys. You give old man Kobe the Warriors screening, and he'll still drop 40 on you.
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The SI list (like most of these kinds of list) are predictive of how players will do over the entire upcoming season.
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Also, when MJ was getting up there in the late 90s, nobody ever questioned his status as #1. Why is it so different for Kobe? |
In his three final years with the Bulls in the late 90s, Jordan was only 32-34 years old. In all three of those years, he played a full 82 games, led the league in scoring, won the regular season and finals MVPs, and won a ring.
Kobe is 37 and he has only played 41 games over the last two seasons.
If you can't see the difference, there isn't much to say. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | Ok fine...if you factor all the age issues, and value, and longevity, ok you can put 53 people in front. But how many of those 53 can beat a 37 year old kobe (healthy) 1on1? If they can't, are they really better? Or are they just younger or something?
For example, I've seen people describe it like this...if they aren't sure if Kobe can stay healthy over the course of the season, they rank him lower. But I never think like that...i just think about one game. If he's healthy over the course of the one game, but still old, I still feel he's better than most of those guys. You give old man Kobe the Warriors screening, and he'll still drop 40 on you.
Also, when MJ was getting up there in the late 90s, nobody ever questioned his status as #1. Why is it so different for Kobe? They were calling him old starting around 2007-8? The whole thing feels a little capricious to me. |
Is this a serious statement? Because Micheal Jordan was playing 82 games per year from from 96-98, winning MVPs, scoring titles and NBA championships while Kobe has played 41 games in his last two seasons. The situations couldn't be more different. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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My first reaction was that 53 was too high. Yeah, Kobe is old and banged up, but he's still Kobe.
Then I looked at the other players in his neighborhood in the rankings. Gay. Parker. Batum. Ellis. Deng. Those are all good players. I can live with Kobe being ranked at 53. It sounds like a slam for a guy who was top five, if not number one, for over a decade. But it really isn't. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
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golaker
Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2010
Posts: 2557
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
And quickly get the ball stripped and stolen from him by the guard who's 5x as quick and never get the ball back again.
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Maybe you think it's completely innocent. Maybe you don't. But there's no denying that what the rule book says means a lot less than what the NBA wants at any given moment. -Tim Donaghy |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Who cares about a subjective ranking system. Kobe didn't even play close to a full season. If your going strictly by stats, fine but Kobe should be left off of any subjective ranking system.
Let him play a full season on a laker team in non-tank mode then we can talk about some quasi subjective-stat reliant ranking |
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golaker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
And you have only posted in this thread so you can argue with Kobe fans and try to convince us all of just how done he is. We get it, you can stop now.
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Maybe you think it's completely innocent. Maybe you don't. But there's no denying that what the rule book says means a lot less than what the NBA wants at any given moment. -Tim Donaghy |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| golaker wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
And quickly get the ball stripped and stolen from him by the guard who's 5x as quick and never get the ball back again. |
Ok. Then his shot gets block and the big backs down and dunks again.
I mean, seriously, what is the point of talking about 1:1?? The ranking is based on 5x5 NBA basketball not 1:1, not Horse, and no make it take it. Can we just discuss that instead of conjuring up weird hypotheticals? |
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