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Do you agree with SI ranking Kobe #54? |
Sounds about right. |
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29% |
[ 25 ] |
Should be lower: Somewhere between 1-53. |
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39% |
[ 34 ] |
Should be higher: Somewhere between 55-100. |
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10% |
[ 9 ] |
I would not rank him in the top 100. |
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20% |
[ 18 ] |
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Total Votes : 86 |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29152 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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When healthy, Kobe is an all star. Let alone top 50.
But he hasn't been healthy in years, and its unlikely he comes close to 82 games played this season.
So I get the ranking. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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golaker wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
And you have only posted in this thread so you can argue with Kobe fans and try to convince us all of just how done he is. We get it, you can stop now. |
I already said I voted for "sounds about right".
Why would I need to convince you about how done any player in their last season is? I'm sure you follow the news and know he is likely literally done after this season right? All I care is that he is healthy enough to walk off the court to a huge standing O on his final home game. |
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golaker Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 Posts: 2557
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | golaker wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
And you have only posted in this thread so you can argue with Kobe fans and try to convince us all of just how done he is. We get it, you can stop now. |
I already said I voted for "sounds about right".
Why would I need to convince you about how done any player in their last season is? I'm sure you follow the news and know he is likely literally done after this season right? All I care is that he is healthy enough to walk off the court to a huge standing O on his final home game. |
It's superboy you're trying to convince, not me. You've already tried to discredit his opinion twice. Must just be about that huge standing O you hope Kobe gets in his final home game, right? _________________ Maybe you think it's completely innocent. Maybe you don't. But there's no denying that what the rule book says means a lot less than what the NBA wants at any given moment. -Tim Donaghy |
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Goldenwest Star Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2801
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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golaker wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
If it was 1:1, some big would just take his time and dribble a guard down to the basket and dunk on him.
You only want to use 1:1 so it can get you to where you want to be. In the end, a real NBA player has to deal with multiple defenders, double teams, make passes, move off the ball, ser screens, and a number of other things a 1:1 player doesn't even have to consider. |
And you have only posted in this thread so you can argue with Kobe fans and try to convince us all of just how done he is. We get it, you can stop now. |
Yeah no kidding, time to jump on the 'get rid of Kobe bandwagon' , I can find more objectivity about Kobe on a Celtics forum, I think I know what SBR is getting at, Kobe still has more moves than most of these guys that SI has on their list, and when healthy he is still a top talent in the league, he showed that in flashes last year. Let's see if SI gives him proper due if he has a full healthy season on an improved roster, I'm interested in seeing what his performance will be and what his stats will look like |
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Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23745
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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If Kobe accepted a lesser role, he could earn a higher ranking. Pierce shouldn't be ranked very high at this point but he's playing an appropriate role that emphasizes his strengths. Kobe was doing the opposite.
These articles always show just how polarizing Kobe Bryant is. It shouldn't be taken as a slam on Kobe but a lot of people will accuse it of being a hatchet piece, even though time and time again, the polls have proven to be overly optimistic. |
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yuurin98 Star Player
Joined: 28 Aug 2015 Posts: 1164
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Treble Clef wrote: | If Kobe accepted a lesser role, he could earn a higher ranking. Pierce shouldn't be ranked very high at this point but he's playing an appropriate role that emphasizes his strengths. Kobe was doing the opposite.
These articles always show just how polarizing Kobe Bryant is. It shouldn't be taken as a slam on Kobe but a lot of people will accuse it of being a hatchet piece, even though time and time again, the polls have proven to be overly optimistic. |
Agreed. |
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Voices Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 8287 Location: Oxnard, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | My first reaction was that 53 was too high. Yeah, Kobe is old and banged up, but he's still Kobe.
Then I looked at the other players in his neighborhood in the rankings. Gay. Parker. Batum. Ellis. Deng. Those are all good players. I can live with Kobe being ranked at 53. It sounds like a slam for a guy who was top five, if not number one, for over a decade. But it really isn't. |
I agree with your assessment of a slam. I just believe that a healthy Kobe is still elite, elite to me is capable of defining the outcome of a game at any given time. Parker is very similar to Kobe, he is still capable of deciding a game at any given time. Gay, Batum, Ellis and Deng are all really good players but not as dynamic as both Kobe and Parker. I do like your assessment though, it shows what great talent the NBA has to offer us fans. _________________ .....
.....
ALTHOUGH HE STANDS 6 FEET 2 INCHES, JIM BUSS ATTENDED JOCKEY SCHOOL WHEN HE WAS 20. |
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dabask11 Star Player
Joined: 27 Dec 2012 Posts: 1989
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Considering how terrible kobe played last year, the ranking is generous when you consider the amount of missed games. Regardless, it should have no bearing on his career. |
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Rugbar Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Nov 2014 Posts: 203
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe? You mean that guy who was a volume shooter last year with a TS% that was worse than the average for every team in the league. That guy who by some measures was one of the worst defenders at his position in the league? And that guy who came in ranked at 301 in real plus/minus for the year?
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/8/sort/RPM
(Before you dismiss the stat as meaningless, note that it lists the top four players in the league last year as Curry, Lebron, Harden and Davis.)
If Kobe continues to shoot as much as he did last year, then he's closer to 301 than 54. That's for sure. If he acts more as a facilitator, he might be closer to 54. |
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Rugbar Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Nov 2014 Posts: 203
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Forgot to mention his .006 WS/48! (It's standardized so that .100 is the league average.) |
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TDRock Retired Number
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 48600 Location: LA to the Bay
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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So they're saying he really shouldn't be ranked at all.
Yet they went ahead and ranked him to create a "controversy " and get some hits.
YeahOK
(For the record Ii didn't vote. I need a "rankings lists are silly" option) |
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sketchblaze Rookie
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:32 am Post subject: |
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Rugbar wrote: | Kobe? You mean that guy who was a volume shooter last year with a TS% that was worse than the average for every team in the league. That guy who by some measures was one of the worst defenders at his position in the league? And that guy who came in ranked at 301 in real plus/minus for the year?
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/8/sort/RPM
(Before you dismiss the stat as meaningless, note that it lists the top four players in the league last year as Curry, Lebron, Harden and Davis.)
If Kobe continues to shoot as much as he did last year, then he's closer to 301 than 54. That's for sure. If he acts more as a facilitator, he might be closer to 54. |
This. Kobe was absolutely awful last year. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:45 am Post subject: |
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TDRock wrote: | So they're saying he really shouldn't be ranked at all.
Yet they went ahead and ranked him to create a "controversy " and get some hits.
YeahOK
(For the record Ii didn't vote. I need a "rankings lists are silly" option) |
Course if they didn't rank him that would create a controversy as well.
Frankly, I think it's only a controversy for Laker fans. No one else is upset about his ranking of 54.
We've got a lot to prove this season. Does Kobe still have it? Is Dlo the real deal? Can Clarkson take the next step? Is Julius Randle going to stay healthy and deliver? It's going to be an interesting season. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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BstMde83 wrote: | There are not 50 players better than Bryant even at 37 years old, FOH...Lebron could be paralyzed and ESPN would still have him in their top 5. The agenda is clear.. |
At least ESPN was able to look at the past two seasons objectively, something you seem to want to ignore. Ranking Kobe at all is a courtesy, no one has any idea what he can do. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
Not when you consider that basketball is a team game, not 1 on 1. It is apparently you who fail to understand what the rankings are about. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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dabask11 Star Player
Joined: 27 Dec 2012 Posts: 1989
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | to those making jokes about 1on1 or horse, etc...
The idea that the best 1on1 player in the world is somehow not the best player is strange. This goes back to the weird idea that assists and rebounds are considered unselfish things, while scoring is selfish. Which is nonsense. Scoring is the best thing and the best scorer is a more valuable player than the best rebounder or defender.
And similarly, the guy who the coach gives the ball to after a timeout with 10 seconds left and the game tied...THAT's your best player. It's not like that's your best player for the clutch, but you have another best player for the other "normal" plays. When Coach K gave Kobe the green light in the Olypic gold medal game (over lebron, wade, etc.) it was because he's the best...not because he's the best for that particular situation.
so yea, these rankings are crazy. the rankings even state what they are taking into consideration...injury risks, youth, crazy metrics, etc. so yes, by those accounts, sure Kobe can be in the middle...mostly the age/injury issue. but to me, for any particular play in a vacuum, kobe is still top 10 or higher. |
Not when you consider that basketball is a team game, not 1 on 1. It is apparently you who fail to understand what the rankings are about. |
More importantly, Kobe isn't the best 1 on 1 player in the world currently due to his decreased physical abilities. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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The best courtesy ESPN can do when their list comes out is just say that he's not in the top 100 and leave it at that. |
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TDRock Retired Number
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 48600 Location: LA to the Bay
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | TDRock wrote: | So they're saying he really shouldn't be ranked at all.
Yet they went ahead and ranked him to create a "controversy " and get some hits.
YeahOK
(For the record Ii didn't vote. I need a "rankings lists are silly" option) |
Course if they didn't rank him that would create a controversy as well.
Frankly, I think it's only a controversy for Laker fans. No one else is upset about his ranking of 54.
We've got a lot to prove this season. Does Kobe still have it? Is Dlo the real deal? Can Clarkson take the next step? Is Julius Randle going to stay healthy and deliver? It's going to be an interesting season. |
No I read some of the comments until I realized I wasn't really interested and other people were hashing through it. I recognize my extreme prejudice that I think these kinds of lists are straight silly sauce, but I think if they really think he shouldn't be on the list they should have the courage to NOT put him on the list (they had a section about the ppl who didn't make it) instead of putting him on the list but then listing all the reasons why he shouldn't be there. That was BS IMO. |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25001
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:51 am Post subject: |
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30 NBA teams... are they saying there's avg almost 2 players per team better than The Black Mamba? |
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P.K. Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 29641
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:49 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | 30 NBA teams... are they saying there's avg almost 2 players per team better than The Black Mamba? |
"Bryant had the worst effective field goal percentage (.411) of ANY NBA player to take at least 700 shots. Nevertheless, Bryant’s usage rate (34.9%) was second-highest in the league, trailing only Russell Westbrook. Simultaneously, Bryant had the worst defensive rating (112.6) of any player that logged at least 1,000 minutes, and he ranked 81st out of 91 shooting guards in Defensive Real Plus-Minus. "
So, yes. That's exactly what they're saying _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Last edited by P.K. on Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | 30 NBA teams... are they saying there's avg almost 2 players per team better than The Black Mamba? |
Well particularly so if he's injured again. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29152 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder what's a better injury prevention approach for Kobe.
NEVER let him play over 24 minutes in a game, but let him play all 82 games if he wants.
Or
Not playing him back-to-backs and having his minutes range between 24-30 when he does play.
I think the first option is better for the team. Playing the same way with the same rotation every game is better than playing 2 different ways game-to-game based on Kobe's health. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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The hardest thing supposedly for older players is coming in cold off the bench, so maybe you play him more in the 1st and 3rd quarters, and less in the 2nd and 4th. 24 minutes a night ain't happening. |
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dj1337 Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Dec 2011 Posts: 635
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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I dont really see kobe accepting less than 30-32 per night (with some nights off). If he plays a game, it wont be for 24mins. That aint kobe. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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the real truth is you can't really prevent a lot of injuries. just go back to bynum...so many here angrily debated why this or that caused the injury and it should have been prevented. but most of them were simply freak accidents. if someone falls on your leg and injures you, there's nothing you can do. that's not a genetics or conditioning thing, or an age thing. In kobe's case, yes it seemed like the achilles injury was from overuse. but it's not as convincing as a lot here make it out to be. remember, he got hurt 2 or 3 times in that game before the injury. and there was that afflalo thing earlier in the season where he went under him.
if i were coach, my attutude is...kobe is going to play, don't worry about how to prevent his injuries. but let him rest, NOT for injury sake, but for age. I wouldn't even really play him unless it was necessary, but i know that will not make any sense with the business of the laker org. but that's what i would do.
1st half: just stick kobe in if it looks like they are getting blown out. otherwise, just let the rest of the team deal with it
2nd half: same thing. but if it's the 4th and there's a "feel" that you need kobe for something, stick him in.
all other cases, let him sit. |
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