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LoyalLakerfan44
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Joined: 09 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
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http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
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This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
He's winning because Mark Jackson left the table set for him, and he's got a very talented young contending team (with playoff experience) and two of the best perimeter shooting superstars in the league. As far as coaching Kerr pretty much said; here's the basketball do what you do best.
Kerr an overrated coach that follows the stars no different than his ex-coach Phil Jackson. I call these guys opportunists and believe me I think it's smart heck why not go with the best but true great coaching not many these days.
Here's my list: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Tex Winters, and Phil Jackson (I call him more of an expert on superstar ego management than coaching). |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
|
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
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This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
He's winning because Mark Jackson left the table set for him, and he's got a very talented young contending team (with playoff experience) and two of the best perimeter shooting superstars in the league. As far as coaching Kerr pretty much said; here's the basketball do what you do best.
Kerr an overrated coach that follows the stars no different than his ex-coach Phil Jackson. I call these guys opportunists and believe me I think it's smart heck why not go with the best but true great coaching not many these days.
Here's my list: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Tex Winters, and Phil Jackson (I call him more of an expert on superstar ego management than coaching). |
Mark Jackson set the table defensively, but the team made the jump because they got rid of his awful X and O stuff on offense. Whatever Kerr knows or doesn't know, he did identify and change that. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I would take MDA over Byron 100 times out of 100 |
I'm sensing a pattern.
With Mike Brown:
Fans: JUST RUN THE PICK AND ROLL OFFENSE!! IT'S SIMPLE! WE DON'T NED SYSTEM BASKETBALL!!
With D'antoni:
Fans: STOP RUNNING SUCH A HIGH PACE! UGH SCREW THIS FAST PACED PICK AND ROLL!! WE CAN'T PLAY DEFENSE!! WE NEED A SYSTEM OFFENSE!!
With Byron:
Fans: WE NEED THE PICK AND ROLL OFFENSE!!
I think that 'want' is going to always change constantly till the Lakers start consistently winning. That's gonna happen when your team has talent, regardless of 'what' you run. |
MDA is the only coach mentioned that played futuristic ball, or even to current standards. He has vision that we don't see from Brown or Byron.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
|
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
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This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
That reminds me of one of my favorite baseball quotes of all time. One player said "Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher in the history of baseball. He always gets to pitch the games where the other team can't hit".
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Kobeskillz
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Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 1069
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | Kobeskillz wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobeskillz wrote: | | Who cares. They are paid to do this. God forbid them run when they are paid millions. If they entered camp in shape like clarkson then the running should be a breeze. |
Clarkson himself was missing dunks in scrimmages due to tired legs. B scott is an ineffective head coach |
So what. It's pre season. No one complained when pat ran these guys to 5 chips in the 80s with even tougher camps. If magic and Kareem and all those legends can do it than these unaccomplished players can as well. |
that was 1980's dude. nagging injuries turn into more serious injuries later on.
Clarkson and randle last yr. idiot vitti told randle to play on his bump |
So because it was h 80s they could run more and be ok but now it's the worst thing ever. God these players are charming soft. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think this team will be in the 27-32 win range and probably in the 10-13th seed range sadly. Sigh.
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Plaza234
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Stanley Johnson had one impressive debut tonight for the Pistons. 26 points on 8-17 shooting. He was really good in the summer league too. I did not want the Lakers to draft him thinking his offensive game was limited, but he's done very good so far. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Plaza234 wrote: | | Stanley Johnson had one impressive debut tonight for the Pistons. 26 points on 8-17 shooting. He was really good in the summer league too. I did not want the Lakers to draft him thinking his offensive game was limited, but he's done very good so far. |
Well he gets the freedom to take 17 shots. On the lakers he's not getting anywhere near that.
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pio2u
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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The team played with some grit & heart last night but didn't finish.
We are still young and have a very long way to go before we become a real threat.
Overall not a bad effort though. It's something to build on. |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | Stanley Johnson had one impressive debut tonight for the Pistons. 26 points on 8-17 shooting. He was really good in the summer league too. I did not want the Lakers to draft him thinking his offensive game was limited, but he's done very good so far. |
Well he gets the freedom to take 17 shots. On the lakers he's not getting anywhere near that. |
I thought you didn't want SJ because we're getting Paul George in 2018  |
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deal
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Joined: 17 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think this team will be in the 27-32 win range and probably in the 10-13th seed range sadly. Sigh. |
Agree, this is not a PO team at all. Many get way to excited by the young
players but those guys need to develop and that will take some years...
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Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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RCS926
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Joined: 05 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think this team will be in the 27-32 win range and probably in the 10-13th seed range sadly. Sigh. |
Too early to predict anything just yet. However, I hope this team shows greater improvement than that. I'd like to see them win a minimum of 30 games. |
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Ziggy
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| deal wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think this team will be in the 27-32 win range and probably in the 10-13th seed range sadly. Sigh. |
Agree, this is not a PO team at all. Many get way to excited by the young
players but those guys need to develop and that will take some years... |
It's gonna be another year or two of 45+ losses. Fans should know that going into the season just to keep their levels of hysteria in check. Personally, I don't think any less of fans that choose to stop watching when the team is losing. I'll be watching to see how the kids develop, but I know they're going to be the underdogs every night. Anything over 30 wins is a bonus. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| deal wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think this team will be in the 27-32 win range and probably in the 10-13th seed range sadly. Sigh. |
Agree, this is not a PO team at all. Many get way to excited by the young
players but those guys need to develop and that will take some years... |
If we can exceed those expectations and win mid 30s with the young guys developing i will be pleased.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Ziggy
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
|
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
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This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
He's winning because Mark Jackson left the table set for him, and he's got a very talented young contending team (with playoff experience) and two of the best perimeter shooting superstars in the league. As far as coaching Kerr pretty much said; here's the basketball do what you do best.
Kerr an overrated coach that follows the stars no different than his ex-coach Phil Jackson. I call these guys opportunists and believe me I think it's smart heck why not go with the best but true great coaching not many these days.
Here's my list: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Tex Winters, and Phil Jackson (I call him more of an expert on superstar ego management than coaching). |
Mark Jackson set the table defensively, but the team made the jump because they got rid of his awful X and O stuff on offense. Whatever Kerr knows or doesn't know, he did identify and change that. |
Even though they're young, that team has been together for a few years already. They don't need the two a days. This Laker team is starting from ground zero. They haven't played a single game together and some are new to the NBA. Most rookies hit that wall because they aren't physically prepared for an NBA season. Completely different situations. |
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laker50
Star Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:22 am Post subject: The key is to get rid of the tank mentality |
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I think last year the team expected to loose and did not know how to win.
And Byron Scott sort of got into it also. He has to coach tougher and learn to chew out bad shots and bad defense. Lets see some ball and player movement.
It is not in Kobe's DNA to tank. He will just get injured again trying to carry a sorry team.
This year the rookies can learn from Kobe, Hibbert, Bass, MWP, and Lou.
Get rid of the tanking mentality and start playing to win.
But this has to start with the coach, Byron Scott. |
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bandiger
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Joined: 02 Apr 2014
Posts: 12555
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:48 am Post subject: Re: The key is to get rid of the tank mentality |
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| laker50 wrote: | I think last year the team expected to loose and did not know how to win.
And Byron Scott sort of got into it also. He has to coach tougher and learn to chew out bad shots and bad defense. Lets see some ball and player movement.
It is not in Kobe's DNA to tank. He will just get injured again trying to carry a sorry team.
This year the rookies can learn from Kobe, Hibbert, Bass, MWP, and Lou.
Get rid of the tanking mentality and start playing to win.
But this has to start with the coach, Byron Scott. |
Well he's got a decent mix of talent on the roster, if he can't win or compete close to 8th seed than he should be fired after the end of the season. Sorry but Lakers have to maintain a standard here, no more of this lottery BS. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
|
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
|
This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
He's winning because Mark Jackson left the table set for him, and he's got a very talented young contending team (with playoff experience) and two of the best perimeter shooting superstars in the league. As far as coaching Kerr pretty much said; here's the basketball do what you do best.
Kerr an overrated coach that follows the stars no different than his ex-coach Phil Jackson. I call these guys opportunists and believe me I think it's smart heck why not go with the best but true great coaching not many these days.
Here's my list: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Tex Winters, and Phil Jackson (I call him more of an expert on superstar ego management than coaching). |
Can you name another team that made a 16 win jump without adding a single significant player? And we're not talking about going from 20 wins to 36 wins either. We're talking about going from 51 wins and a 1st round playoff loss to 67 wins and an NBA championship. With the exact same core. No slowly progressing, no tasting your own blood for a couple of years while you learn how to win...the same group of players went from perennial 1st round exits to tying for the most wins (83) in NBA history.
But Kerr is overrated. Okay. |
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PhoenixForce
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2014
Posts: 1780
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
|
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
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This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
He's winning because Mark Jackson left the table set for him, and he's got a very talented young contending team (with playoff experience) and two of the best perimeter shooting superstars in the league. As far as coaching Kerr pretty much said; here's the basketball do what you do best.
Kerr an overrated coach that follows the stars no different than his ex-coach Phil Jackson. I call these guys opportunists and believe me I think it's smart heck why not go with the best but true great coaching not many these days.
Here's my list: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Tex Winters, and Phil Jackson (I call him more of an expert on superstar ego management than coaching). |
Can you name another team that made a 16 win jump without adding a single significant player? And we're not talking about going from 20 wins to 36 wins either. We're talking about going from 51 wins and a 1st round playoff loss to 67 wins and an NBA championship. With the exact same core. No slowly progressing, no tasting your own blood for a couple of years while you learn how to win...the same group of players went from perennial 1st round exits to tying for the most wins (83) in NBA history.
But Kerr is overrated. Okay. |
Yeah, that argument to detract from Kerr's success makes no sense. It was clear cut the impact that Kerr made. He made the team better and more efficient on offense and defense.
Only other coach that made that huge of an impact taking over a team in just 1 season was Phil Jackson in 1999-2000. |
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deal
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14911
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | LoyalLakerfan44 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | Kava wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | pio2u wrote: | Lakers aren't enthused by all the running at training camp
| Quote: | The Lakers shot 28.9% and faded badly as the game unfolded. It came after three days of two-a-day practices in another traditionally tough Byron Scott training camp.
The Lakers coach has a reputation for demanding a lot of running in the preseason. It's important in his mind because the Lakers will be better conditioned than other teams down the road.
|
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-hawaii-20151006-story.html |
| Quote: | | Some teams don't do any two-a-day practices in camp, including the Golden State Warriors. Coach Steve Kerr isn't a fan of the extra wear and tear, saying last week he might never have another two-a-day. |
|
This works as long as Kerr is winning. |
It works either way. People keep coming up with ways to criticize Kerr obliquely on a lot of things (including analytic friendly schemes) by saying he somehow gets away with it because he's winning, rather than acknowledge he may be winning by doing things the right way... |
He's winning because Mark Jackson left the table set for him, and he's got a very talented young contending team (with playoff experience) and two of the best perimeter shooting superstars in the league. As far as coaching Kerr pretty much said; here's the basketball do what you do best.
Kerr an overrated coach that follows the stars no different than his ex-coach Phil Jackson. I call these guys opportunists and believe me I think it's smart heck why not go with the best but true great coaching not many these days.
Here's my list: Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Tex Winters, and Phil Jackson (I call him more of an expert on superstar ego management than coaching). |
Can you name another team that made a 16 win jump without adding a single significant player? And we're not talking about going from 20 wins to 36 wins either. We're talking about going from 51 wins and a 1st round playoff loss to 67 wins and an NBA championship. With the exact same core. No slowly progressing, no tasting your own blood for a couple of years while you learn how to win...the same group of players went from perennial 1st round exits to tying for the most wins (83) in NBA history.
But Kerr is overrated. Okay. |
Kerr gets the benefit of the doubt because he made the winning season and then followed up by winning it all. He made gutsy changes to the lineup during the play offs and they worked out.
So, why not believe in a basketball guy that had the smarts to pull it off? Can he do it again, we'll know soon enough but a heck of a run last season.
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Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I think the character assassination stuff of Jackson was petty and unnecessary (don't even care if true, doesn't matter). But there was a clear feeling that Jackson's schemes were getting in the way of the next leap, and Kerr totally brought what was needed, both in understanding the modern game and the flexibility and humility to bring in guys to get it done.
And he had to do it while replacing a coach who had some strong loyalty in the locker room, and not alienate people. That's a good job all around. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | FWIW, I think the character assassination stuff of Jackson was petty and unnecessary (don't even care if true, doesn't matter). But there was a clear feeling that Jackson's schemes were getting in the way of the next leap, and Kerr totally brought what was needed, both in understanding the modern game and the flexibility and humility to bring in guys to get it done.
And he had to do it while replacing a coach who had some strong loyalty in the locker room, and not alienate people. That's a good job all around. |
Frankly is Scott can get the team to where MJax got the Warriors prior to Kerr he would have done a great job. Scott isn't the coach to take this team to the promised land.
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Omar Little
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Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | FWIW, I think the character assassination stuff of Jackson was petty and unnecessary (don't even care if true, doesn't matter). But there was a clear feeling that Jackson's schemes were getting in the way of the next leap, and Kerr totally brought what was needed, both in understanding the modern game and the flexibility and humility to bring in guys to get it done.
And he had to do it while replacing a coach who had some strong loyalty in the locker room, and not alienate people. That's a good job all around. |
Frankly is Scott can get the team to where MJax got the Warriors prior to Kerr he would have done a great job. Scott isn't the coach to take this team to the promised land. |
Agreed. I see some value in some of Scott's coaching, the chippy, hard working, in shape, play for each other mindset isn't an accident. I suspect he will not be able to meld his style and newer stuff together, but he could. With a couple real good, empowered assistants, Scott could be the CEO if he wanted to. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 24 wrote: | FWIW, I think the character assassination stuff of Jackson was petty and unnecessary (don't even care if true, doesn't matter). But there was a clear feeling that Jackson's schemes were getting in the way of the next leap, and Kerr totally brought what was needed, both in understanding the modern game and the flexibility and humility to bring in guys to get it done.
And he had to do it while replacing a coach who had some strong loyalty in the locker room, and not alienate people. That's a good job all around. |
Frankly is Scott can get the team to where MJax got the Warriors prior to Kerr he would have done a great job. Scott isn't the coach to take this team to the promised land. |
Agreed. I see some value in some of Scott's coaching, the chippy, hard working, in shape, play for each other mindset isn't an accident. I suspect he will not be able to meld his style and newer stuff together, but he could. With a couple real good, empowered assistants, Scott could be the CEO if he wanted to. |
It's somewhat important too to just instill some Lakers pride. We're likely missing our 3rd consecutive playoffs so it's important to have someone be a standard bearer so to speak.
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| byron would have a better offense if he just lets these guys run couple of P&R plays. let them jack up some 3's if they get back in transition and play hard on defense |
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