Kobe-Tim vs Kobe-Shaq
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focus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:41 pm    Post subject:

So, anyway Duncan's Olympics aside, Kobe-Duncan do better overall in ring/playoff terms than Kobe-Shaq, is that what most think?

That's my view for reasons stated earlier, was more of a playing style and personality and professionalism thought than financial realities or big city little city post.

For the record, no Duncan is not on Kobe's level, and neither is Shaq, but they are both way the heck up there too. And I like all 3 of them. Also Shaq IMO could have maybe should have been in conversation for GOAT of all time w to me, MJ and Kareem, but personality reasons dropped him into 'merely' one of the very best players (not just centers) of all time.
Duncan had a pretty easy organization and team situation and did perfectly great with it, and is also one of the very best players of all time. Shaq and him is a debate to me bc of Duncan's longevity near the top. Shaq at his best smokes him IMO, and v-e-r-y few players had as great a single season as Shaq had in 99-00. But topic is long term results of Kobe w 1, vs Kobe w the other.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:58 pm    Post subject:

focus wrote:
So, anyway Duncan's Olympics aside, Kobe-Duncan do better overall in ring/playoff terms than Kobe-Shaq, is that what most think?


If you look at the thread as whole relatively few people have chimed in. Among the few that have, the sentiment seems to be Duncan/Kobe would have won more because they started their careers at the same time and would have more years together; take that out of the equation, and I don't see a preference for one pairing over the other, though, like I said, not that many people have stated an opinion.

focus wrote:
For the record, no Duncan is not on Kobe's level, and neither is Shaq,


I think that's a minority opinion. As I said, I think as many people would rate Duncan the best of the three as would rate Shaq the best of the three as would rate Kobe the best of the three. And I get that seems to exasperate some people who are really passionate about one of the trio.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Lol there's no way for you to know what is a minority opinion on this or not. You are free to make assumptions though.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Lol there's no way for you to know what is a minority opinion on this or not. You are free to make assumptions though.


You might have missed that I said "I think" which means I am expressing an opinion, not a fact.

And as I said my opinion is based on a lot of polls and rankings I have seen, where Kobe, Shaq and Duncan are ordered in every which way.

And based on that, I'd say the opinion that Kobe of the three is the best is a minority one. I don't think there is a majority opinion on this topic. It's a split vote. I think you'll find as many people who tbink Duncan is the best who think Shaq is the best who think Kobe is the best.
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tolivendiewithLA
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.

That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.

I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well.


Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).

Agree with the rest of the post however.

I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure.


Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career.


It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.

These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan.


What did you use the wrong username?

But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS.


Because you responded to me before I updated my comment I'm going to say this again. Jerry Colangelo and Coach K took over the USA basketball program after the 2004 debacle and assembled a team that was much better constructed than the the 2004 Olympic team. That 2006 team lost to a Greek team without a single NBA player in the World Championships, forcing Team USA to have to qualify for the 2008 Olympics by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas.

So you're arguing that the world had not caught up to Team USA until 2008 despite the fact that Team USA lost two of its previous three tournaments and that it's Duncan's fault they lost in 2004? You have no facts to support this claim. The 2004 team had the best collection of names with no shooters or chemistry due to limited practice time. The 2006 team lost to a Greek team with no NBA players on it even with shooters and more practice time. There's no way to defend the claim that the world hadn't caught up by 2004.


Didn't matter cause you're still pushing the World had caught up, when it wasn't to the level it became in later years. Doesn't matter if they lost in other years, that's on those American players as well like Bron. The World back in 2004 when Duncan lost simply wasn't at the "World has caught up narrative" level that happened later, it just wasn't. And the POINT is about Duncan losing in 2004 to lesser level of World talent than actually happened years later, all while being a lock top 3 player in the World, is a mark on his resume.


It absolutely was the point at which people said the World has caught up to the American level. How old are you? Those were literally the words people were saying from 2004 to 2006 and what motivated bringing in Colangelo and Coach K to revamap the entire program. If not being able to just roll out any collection of American NBA talent doesn't prove that the world has caught up and American basketball responded up to it, what does?

Sure you can argue it's a mark on his resume. It's mark that's minor compared to the overwhelming success his career has been from college to pro. One summer surrounded by a poorly constructed roster is relatively insignificant.

The only factual thing you've admitted is that you're choosing to be biased against Duncan because you choose to believe that people would harshly criticize Kobe in an imaginary scenario where he finished with a Bronze medal.


LOL how old are you buddy? F off with that shttt.

Colangelo came in because they wanted change, but the World is caught up narrative happen afterwards when they failed yet again. Duncan failing was part of it, that's not a mark against a player? You failing with other stars causing change? And again this wasn't the World quality we saw years later. So Duncan lost before the World truly 'caught up'. Colangelo was brought in in 2006 for the formation of the 2008 team.

There is no bias, man what a douche, I'm posting out the real reality that if the same happened to Kobe he be killed for it, whereas Duncan's getting a free pass. It's mark without question. It's not one summer. It's one summer going for a Gold medal in the Olympics, as a consensus top 3 player in the World, with overwhelming more talent than the World had at the time, and finishing 3rd.
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tolivendiewithLA
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
22 wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
I'm moving on, but Duncan's Olympic resume matters, if this were Kobe it be held against him forever. Hell more message board "Laker" fans would probably be shttting on Kobe for it than ones do Duncan for finishing bronze, kinda weird.
absolutely they would

It's the dramatic dichotomy of the two players that stands out the most to me.

When Duncan joined the Olympic team, he was hailed and hyped as the leader. And he failed really badly, bad calls or whatever. And to top it off, his infamous declaration that he would never play again. (I must mention Lebron was on the team also)

Then, the Olympic team continues to underperform in multiple more times in the following years.

Finally, Kobe joins the team. Like Duncan, there's a lot of hype for Kobe. Now I want to say the beatdown USA put on the Olympics was due to Kobe, but really, the team was so much better overall. Still, the drama comes from that Spain gold medal game where Kobe literally saves the game and it could not have been scripted better.

There are not many examples that so clearly show the difference between players like this. That's why I look forward to the Olympics so much for basketball...it reveals who is legitimate and who is the real deal. Duncan, I'm sorry to say, has a few gimmicks in his game. That's the real reason why it didn't translate as well to the Olympics. Kobe...no gimmicks. Kobe is the real deal. There's no debate to me about Duncan vs Kobe. Kobe is on another level. Duncan is good, but not the best I've ever seen. Kobe is the best I've ever seen.


Nice post. And that Gold medal game was epic, I watched it ever once in a while. Wade played well too, Bron turned in T Prince.
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tolivendiewithLA
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
22 wrote:
Lol there's no way for you to know what is a minority opinion on this or not. You are free to make assumptions though.


You might have missed that I said "I think" which means I am expressing an opinion, not a fact.

And as I said my opinion is based on a lot of polls and rankings I have seen, where Kobe, Shaq and Duncan are ordered in every which way.

And based on that, I'd say the opinion that Kobe of the three is the best is a minority one. I don't think there is a majority opinion on this topic. It's a split vote. I think you'll find as many people who tbink Duncan is the best who think Shaq is the best who think Kobe is the best.


Kobe, Duncan and Shaq are all ranked closely, but the majority of the time Kobe or Duncan are ranked interchangeably and Shaq 3rd (although most regard Shaq as having the highest peak). In recent years national media has begun to kill Kobe more than ever and try and push Duncan ahead and try to influence fan opinion. But if we're talking the overall basketball fan populous, Kobe still gets ranked the highest of the 3 the majority of the time. Maybe not by a lot, but he does just the same. Kobe has to fight the media crapping on him constantly and writing off his accomplishments, Duncan has no such interference.
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KBH
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:49 am    Post subject:

tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.

That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.

I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well.


Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).

Agree with the rest of the post however.

I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure.


Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career.


It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.

These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan.


What did you use the wrong username?

But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS.


Because you responded to me before I updated my comment I'm going to say this again. Jerry Colangelo and Coach K took over the USA basketball program after the 2004 debacle and assembled a team that was much better constructed than the the 2004 Olympic team. That 2006 team lost to a Greek team without a single NBA player in the World Championships, forcing Team USA to have to qualify for the 2008 Olympics by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas.

So you're arguing that the world had not caught up to Team USA until 2008 despite the fact that Team USA lost two of its previous three tournaments and that it's Duncan's fault they lost in 2004? You have no facts to support this claim. The 2004 team had the best collection of names with no shooters or chemistry due to limited practice time. The 2006 team lost to a Greek team with no NBA players on it even with shooters and more practice time. There's no way to defend the claim that the world hadn't caught up by 2004.


Didn't matter cause you're still pushing the World had caught up, when it wasn't to the level it became in later years. Doesn't matter if they lost in other years, that's on those American players as well like Bron. The World back in 2004 when Duncan lost simply wasn't at the "World has caught up narrative" level that happened later, it just wasn't. And the POINT is about Duncan losing in 2004 to lesser level of World talent than actually happened years later, all while being a lock top 3 player in the World, is a mark on his resume.


It absolutely was the point at which people said the World has caught up to the American level. How old are you? Those were literally the words people were saying from 2004 to 2006 and what motivated bringing in Colangelo and Coach K to revamap the entire program. If not being able to just roll out any collection of American NBA talent doesn't prove that the world has caught up and American basketball responded up to it, what does?

Sure you can argue it's a mark on his resume. It's mark that's minor compared to the overwhelming success his career has been from college to pro. One summer surrounded by a poorly constructed roster is relatively insignificant.

The only factual thing you've admitted is that you're choosing to be biased against Duncan because you choose to believe that people would harshly criticize Kobe in an imaginary scenario where he finished with a Bronze medal.


LOL how old are you buddy? F off with that shttt.

Colangelo came in because they wanted change, but the World is caught up narrative happen afterwards when they failed yet again. Duncan failing was part of it, that's not a mark against a player? You failing with other stars causing change? And again this wasn't the World quality we saw years later. So Duncan lost before the World truly 'caught up'. Colangelo was brought in in 2006 for the formation of the 2008 team.

There is no bias, man what a douche, I'm posting out the real reality that if the same happened to Kobe he be killed for it, whereas Duncan's getting a free pass. It's mark without question. It's not one summer. It's one summer going for a Gold medal in the Olympics, as a consensus top 3 player in the World, with overwhelming more talent than the World had at the time, and finishing 3rd.


Lol you either don't know what you're talking about or you're choosing to rewrite history. Myself and others have laid out enough facts which can be read in this string of comments. No need for me to engage in this anymore.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject:

KBH wrote:

Lol you either don't know what you're talking about or you're choosing to rewrite history. Myself and others have laid out enough facts which can be read in this string of comments. No need for me to engage in this anymore.


The 2004 Olympics have been endlessly discussed and debated. I think it's safe to say:

-- USA put together a really bad team that wasn't suited for international play.
-- Most of the top NBA players didn't participate for a variety of reasons.
-- The team didn't spend much time practicing.
-- The players didn't have a great understanding of how the rules/style of play were different than they were used to.
-- The players didn't take the Olympics too seriously, and spent a lot of time partying and drinking rather than focusing on the games.
-- The rest of the world wasn't intimidated by the USA as they had been by previous Olympic team because they didn't know who a lot of the players were.
-- The rest of the world was getting better.

In this thread you have a couple of posters who want to put all the blame on Duncan, but that's because they are super pro Kobe guys and they want to take down a rival to their player. They are going to try to frame Duncan in as negative a light as they can in any discussion.

Duncan was super frustrated by the experience, and I think he fouled out of a couple of games.

I don't think many people think of the 2004 Olympics failure as primarily a Duncan failure. It's a black mark on his resume, but a relatively insignificant one in the big scheme of things. That said, he didn't play very well in the Olympics; but so many players play poorly, and so much went wrong, that I think few people really think one purpose deserves a lot of the blame.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
KBH wrote:

Lol you either don't know what you're talking about or you're choosing to rewrite history. Myself and others have laid out enough facts which can be read in this string of comments. No need for me to engage in this anymore.


The 2004 Olympics have been endlessly discussed and debated. I think it's safe to say:

-- USA put together a really bad team that wasn't suited for international play.
-- Most of the top NBA players didn't participate for a variety of reasons.
-- The team didn't spend much time practicing.
-- The players didn't have a great understanding of how the rules/style of play were different than they were used to.
-- The players didn't take the Olympics too seriously, and spent a lot of time partying and drinking rather than focusing on the games.
-- The rest of the world wasn't intimidated by the USA as they had been by previous Olympic team because they didn't know who a lot of the players were.
-- The rest of the world was getting better.

In this thread you have a couple of posters who want to put all the blame on Duncan, but that's because they are super pro Kobe guys and they want to take down a rival to their player. They are going to try to frame Duncan in as negative a light as they can in any discussion.

Duncan was super frustrated by the experience, and I think he fouled out of a couple of games.

I don't think many people think of the 2004 Olympics failure as primarily a Duncan failure. It's a black mark on his resume, but a relatively insignificant one in the big scheme of things. That said, he didn't play very well in the Olympics; but so many players play poorly, and so much went wrong, that I think few people really think one purpose deserves a lot of the blame.


This thread is the first time I've ever heard of any real targeted blame on Duncan for 2004.

So either it wasn't really Duncan or it took 11 years to figure out. Or, I just happened to miss the analysts who said it was all Duncan's fault.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
activeverb wrote:
KBH wrote:

Lol you either don't know what you're talking about or you're choosing to rewrite history. Myself and others have laid out enough facts which can be read in this string of comments. No need for me to engage in this anymore.


The 2004 Olympics have been endlessly discussed and debated. I think it's safe to say:

-- USA put together a really bad team that wasn't suited for international play.
-- Most of the top NBA players didn't participate for a variety of reasons.
-- The team didn't spend much time practicing.
-- The players didn't have a great understanding of how the rules/style of play were different than they were used to.
-- The players didn't take the Olympics too seriously, and spent a lot of time partying and drinking rather than focusing on the games.
-- The rest of the world wasn't intimidated by the USA as they had been by previous Olympic team because they didn't know who a lot of the players were.
-- The rest of the world was getting better.

In this thread you have a couple of posters who want to put all the blame on Duncan, but that's because they are super pro Kobe guys and they want to take down a rival to their player. They are going to try to frame Duncan in as negative a light as they can in any discussion.

Duncan was super frustrated by the experience, and I think he fouled out of a couple of games.

I don't think many people think of the 2004 Olympics failure as primarily a Duncan failure. It's a black mark on his resume, but a relatively insignificant one in the big scheme of things. That said, he didn't play very well in the Olympics; but so many players play poorly, and so much went wrong, that I think few people really think one purpose deserves a lot of the blame.


This thread is the first time I've ever heard of any real targeted blame on Duncan for 2004.

So either it wasn't really Duncan or it took 11 years to figure out. Or, I just happened to miss the analysts who said it was all Duncan's fault.
Lol you guys are overreacting. No one is blaming the loss solely on Duncan. But he was the leader of that team so a large part falls to him.

I personally wouldn't hold it against him so much, everyone loses games or tournaments, but it's the quitting he did that kills me. He should have come back to redeem himself and get revenge on the FIBA refs he hates so much. But he didn't. He pouted and quit. Never to return to international play. That's not something I respect much.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
VegasLakerFan wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
He's basically been done for about 6-7 years. It's RC and Pop who are keeping him alive by stocking the team.


DeAndre Jordan was just about helpless on Duncan one-on-one in the post. He can't do it for 40 minutes anymore, but Duncan is far from done.


What? Any great offensive player can dominate with the ball in short bursts. That goes goes present and retired players.


I wasn't talking about short bursts. I was talking about Tim Duncan repeatedly abusing the best post defender in the game over the course of a seven game series. That's not a player who is "done," that's a guy who is still balling.

Quote:

Duncan hasn't been asked to play 40+ minutes as the primary offensive weapon and primary defensive anchor for a very long time. If he was expected to do that, he would have retired already.


And? No one said he was a 40 mpg player anymore (or really ever), just that he isn't done. He was getting it done in crunch time in the playoffs against an elite defender at his position. What else is there?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
He's basically been done for about 6-7 years. .


Over the past seven years, Duncan has averaged 16-9 with two blocks on 50%; made 5 all-star teams; 3 all-NBA teams; 3 all-defensive teams; and won a ring.

If that's "basically done," I will gladly take a team of 12 "basically done" players, please.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:45 am    Post subject:

Love you these dudes changed the narrative here. Duncan isn't getting blamed, just simply stating the obvious the losing and getting bronze is a mark on his record.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:57 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
KBH wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
tolivendiewithLA wrote:
Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.

That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.

I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well.


Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team

Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).

Agree with the rest of the post however.

I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure.


Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career.


It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.

These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan.


What did you use the wrong username?

But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS.


Because you responded to me before I updated my comment I'm going to say this again. Jerry Colangelo and Coach K took over the USA basketball program after the 2004 debacle and assembled a team that was much better constructed than the the 2004 Olympic team. That 2006 team lost to a Greek team without a single NBA player in the World Championships, forcing Team USA to have to qualify for the 2008 Olympics by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas.

So you're arguing that the world had not caught up to Team USA until 2008 despite the fact that Team USA lost two of its previous three tournaments and that it's Duncan's fault they lost in 2004? You have no facts to support this claim. The 2004 team had the best collection of names with no shooters or chemistry due to limited practice time. The 2006 team lost to a Greek team with no NBA players on it even with shooters and more practice time. There's no way to defend the claim that the world hadn't caught up by 2004.


Didn't matter cause you're still pushing the World had caught up, when it wasn't to the level it became in later years. Doesn't matter if they lost in other years, that's on those American players as well like Bron. The World back in 2004 when Duncan lost simply wasn't at the "World has caught up narrative" level that happened later, it just wasn't. And the POINT is about Duncan losing in 2004 to lesser level of World talent than actually happened years later, all while being a lock top 3 player in the World, is a mark on his resume.


It absolutely was the point at which people said the World has caught up to the American level. How old are you? Those were literally the words people were saying from 2004 to 2006 and what motivated bringing in Colangelo and Coach K to revamap the entire program. If not being able to just roll out any collection of American NBA talent doesn't prove that the world has caught up and American basketball responded up to it, what does?

Sure you can argue it's a mark on his resume. It's mark that's minor compared to the overwhelming success his career has been from college to pro. One summer surrounded by a poorly constructed roster is relatively insignificant.

The only factual thing you've admitted is that you're choosing to be biased against Duncan because you choose to believe that people would harshly criticize Kobe in an imaginary scenario where he finished with a Bronze medal.


LOL how old are you buddy? F off with that shttt.

Colangelo came in because they wanted change, but the World is caught up narrative happen afterwards when they failed yet again. Duncan failing was part of it, that's not a mark against a player? You failing with other stars causing change? And again this wasn't the World quality we saw years later. So Duncan lost before the World truly 'caught up'. Colangelo was brought in in 2006 for the formation of the 2008 team.

There is no bias, man what a douche, I'm posting out the real reality that if the same happened to Kobe he be killed for it, whereas Duncan's getting a free pass. It's mark without question. It's not one summer. It's one summer going for a Gold medal in the Olympics, as a consensus top 3 player in the World, with overwhelming more talent than the World had at the time, and finishing 3rd.


Lol you either don't know what you're talking about or you're choosing to rewrite history. Myself and others have laid out enough facts which can be read in this string of comments. No need for me to engage in this anymore.


I've posted shttt and if you want to ignore it that's on you. And it's you and one other guy, so chill. I'll remember you as a Duncan apologist in the future LOL.

Duncan lost while being a top 3 player, to a lesser level of international talent than happens years later, it's a negative mark on his resume. End.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject:

tolivendiewithLA wrote:
Love you these dudes changed the narrative here. Duncan isn't getting blamed, just simply stating the obvious the losing and getting bronze is a mark on his record.



I'd say the crux of the issue is how much blame you give Duncan personally for the team losing.

If you think he is largely responsible for the team losing or deserves a large part of the blame for them losing because he was the best player/leader, then you think its a big mark on his record.

If you think the team lost for reasons that had little to do with Duncan, you think it's an fairly insignificant mark on his record.
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